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On January 19 2013 06:25 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 06:17 Seuss wrote:On January 19 2013 05:54 Alaric wrote:
Problem with wit's is it's expensive and hard to piece together (recurve and combine cost still somewhat high) and won't help for prolonged fights.
I tried Seuss' build and while it was indeed good for dps/burst and clear speed, while relying on HP for tanking magic damage, it needs some MR once you get you belt (or finish mallet) or else you start taking quite some damage from poke and burst aimed at you (enemy team had Amumu+Ahri and I was going in first, also Leona AoE made me hit 2+ procs a fight). I went machete->tabi->phage->stinger->belt->finish randuin's, then I finished mallet because I needed the sure slow (Nidalee+Ahri biggest enemy threats, damn hard to stick to) and only then I bought MR. Should probably have finished mallet instead of randuin's, and then padded a slow with negatron or started working on wit's/aegis.
She doesn't need to upgrade machete to clear fast, her W is great against big monsters and maxing E first you pretty much always have 2 to annihilate each camp's basic monsters just by hitting the big one. Don't max E first. You get a negligible damage increase and the cooldown reduction isn't all that useful when fights tend to expand outward as they progress. I've been maxing Q first for the burst damage, chase, and escape potential, followed by W for the extra attack speed and % Health damage. And definitely get Mallet before Randuin's. It feels selfish, but you're far, far scarier with a permanent 40% slow than with a chance at a 25% slow. Been using the same skill order as you (maxing Q or E first doesn't change anything to your first clear time, or close to nothing) at first, and I tended to get some CDR during my first games so once it was near maxed the ability to have a second Q during the fight helped my ganks a lot. I switched to E and trying wit's (aegis felt awkward and I didn't want to build hex so I'd prob have tried wit's at one moment or another) on Smash's advice, but I guess it depends on lanes: E first gives more burst because you'll always have your 2 charges up when you gank (unless they're getting dived and you come from wraiths/gols), while Q is definitely better to convert ganks on mobile targets. I agree that if you don't gain from the added burst a aaEaaE provides you're better off maxing Q>W>E though. The cdr on Q makes it too important not to be maxed early, and E's reduced cdr isn't useful in the midgame compared to W's scaling.
Maxing E is best for laning, but ut's very easy to have two E's available for ganks if you don't overuse them in the jungle. With creep health so heavily weighted to the big creep, that shouldn't be an issue. You also get more damage from a completely uncharged rank 5 Q thank you do from the bonus damage on two rank 5 Es.
But this divergence in opinion also might be due to my rushing Stinger over Brutalizer/Phage. Without the 40% Attack Speed from Stinger those resets matter a heck of a lot more, and are much more vital to jungling.
On January 19 2013 06:48 Bladeorade wrote:
Yes Monte your right I play Vi top. I think she performs better as an ad caster then a jungling tank hybrid. I like having a tanky jungler so I can go full AD. I don't find she needs AS if you build AD.
Ult Q auto is 3 stacks of W giving you AS followed by e auto e stacking it again proccing W twice. One shots squishies and applies BC in aoe with Ult charge Q if it hits more than one person and double E. She has huge damage with this combo and I have had 0 trouble top. I usually start flask Ward 2 pots Max q and since E scales better with AD Max W second.
Brutalizer boots cleaver thirster GA LW Mogs or Mallet. Unstoppable top
I'm having plenty of fun going jungle tank hybrid, where Attack Speed is a little more important as you spend a lot of time just beating on things.
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from my experience with shaco popping my boxes does absolutely nothing to hurt my clear speed and only benefits me as you risk giving us easy FB.
the only benefit of starting off with jitbs is you dont need teammate help which is nice if they wanna go do something else
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Lol I was wondering what was so op about nunu support I didn't know it went up to 65%.
this is pretty embarrassing as I go nunu for hyper carry lanes and jarvan for mid carry lanes.
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On January 19 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 06:37 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:17 Dusty wrote:
Has anyone tried out Diana and Rengar now that Riot has un-gutted them? Diana's good, but still not as good as when she could ult from 3 screens away. Rengar wasn't horrible after the nerf, imo, but these definitely help. IDK why Riot has "ungutted" Rengar. He was at a ridiculous level, and then was nerfed to ~ Kennen level, which is a bit low but not bad. And considering he still has so many potentially toxic features that its better to let him languish a while to see if he really was that weak.
Honestly, I thought the only over the top thing was his heal and stealth. Giving stealth a charge time made it more balanced, since it actually requires a bit of thought now and can't be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, and the heal... well I can't say that I'm in love with the new iteration (I think flat amounts like that are iffy at best), but honestly I was ok with just nerfing the % heal. Yeah you were near impossible to kill just stacking health, but there are champs who can do way more damage/utility just by stacking health and resists. His damage was on an acceptable level for it, imo.
Speaking of Rengar, I think he's another prime candidate for IBG, though I may just like that item too much. I like TF on him, but I never felt any part of the Zeal was really necessary since you have a slow/snare, a jump, and stealth, and now that his heal is flat instead of health scaling, the armor is a nice synergy. Plus, CDR is godly on him like all other manaless champs. The mana is wasted, sure, but I think it's worth it.
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On January 19 2013 07:05 VayneAuthority wrote:
from my experience with shaco popping my boxes does absolutely nothing to hurt my clear speed and only benefits me as you risk giving us easy FB.
the only benefit of starting off with jitbs is you dont need teammate help which is nice if they wanna go do something else
What? An entire team runs at your buff at 1:54. There's nothing you can do to stop them, and you're losing your buff while helping the enemy jungler.
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On January 19 2013 07:20 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:05 VayneAuthority wrote:
from my experience with shaco popping my boxes does absolutely nothing to hurt my clear speed and only benefits me as you risk giving us easy FB.
the only benefit of starting off with jitbs is you dont need teammate help which is nice if they wanna go do something else What? An entire team runs at your buff at 1:54. There's nothing you can do to stop them, and you're losing your buff while helping the enemy jungler.
It's so simple it just blows my mind O_O
How did I not think about it ...
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On January 19 2013 07:19 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:On January 19 2013 06:37 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:17 Dusty wrote:
Has anyone tried out Diana and Rengar now that Riot has un-gutted them? Diana's good, but still not as good as when she could ult from 3 screens away. Rengar wasn't horrible after the nerf, imo, but these definitely help. IDK why Riot has "ungutted" Rengar. He was at a ridiculous level, and then was nerfed to ~ Kennen level, which is a bit low but not bad. And considering he still has so many potentially toxic features that its better to let him languish a while to see if he really was that weak. Honestly, I thought the only over the top thing was his heal and stealth. Giving stealth a charge time made it more balanced, since it actually requires a bit of thought now and can't be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, and the heal... well I can't say that I'm in love with the new iteration (I think flat amounts like that are iffy at best), but honestly I was ok with just nerfing the % heal. Yeah you were near impossible to kill just stacking health, but there are champs who can do way more damage/utility just by stacking health and resists. His damage was on an acceptable level for it, imo. Speaking of Rengar, I think he's another prime candidate for IBG, though I may just like that item too much. I like TF on him, but I never felt any part of the Zeal was really necessary since you have a slow/snare, a jump, and stealth, and now that his heal is flat instead of health scaling, the armor is a nice synergy. Plus, CDR is godly on him like all other manaless champs. The mana is wasted, sure, but I think it's worth it.
I've been going jungle Rengar in norms, cloth5>brut>necklace>warmogs
I started w/ the machete but I think it's a waste, Rengar's clear times are fine w/o it.
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On January 19 2013 06:48 Bladeorade wrote:
Yes Monte your right I play Vi top. I think she performs better as an ad caster then a jungling tank hybrid. I like having a tanky jungler so I can go full AD. I don't find she needs AS if you build AD.
Ult Q auto is 3 stacks of W giving you AS followed by e auto e stacking it again proccing W twice. One shots squishies and applies BC in aoe with Ult charge Q if it hits more than one person and double E. She has huge damage with this combo and I have had 0 trouble top. I usually start flask Ward 2 pots Max q and since E scales better with AD Max W second.
Brutalizer boots cleaver thirster GA LW Mogs or Mallet. Unstoppable top
I'm way too enamoured with raid bosses to play her like that. Top would probably end up being tabi/locket/wit's/mallet, with stuff like randuin's, warmogs, zephyr or bulwark to finish. AS+CDR then just slap as much defense as you can on her.
As for the order, I actually agree, Monte. I ran some maths at Vi's release and Q was more mana-efficient because of the damage scaling on E: despite its cost staying flat, you end up needing one more E to deal the same damage as the Q first combo, so you pay a bit more (and need to have the 2 Es, but it's easy when maxed first).
Since my previous game was with E first and your build, I went for Q first in my last one. More mobility, which helped (Rammus+roaming Jayce). I noticed I had more trouble killing big creeps (most notably big golem and buffs) later on but that's because I derped, went autopilot and maxed E second. W second adds a lot of damage to the jungler monsters as they scale (same for killing drake ans Nash).
It was mostly because of the ganks that I tried the E first (I knew Smash was talking from a top lane perspective), but having faced a bunch of mobile champs in those 2 games, Q cdr would have been better in both. It also allows to have W maxed by the time big fights start happening so you get better dps.
Also Q moves you across camps faster and stacks then nicely for a follow-up E.
I def. liked the stinger though, smoothe build-up than wit's if you back with less than 900 gold, and zephyr doesn't really waste anything. The combine cost is actually somewhat brutal if you need the tenacity early on and went tabi.
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On January 19 2013 07:26 heartlxp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:19 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:On January 19 2013 06:37 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:17 Dusty wrote:
Has anyone tried out Diana and Rengar now that Riot has un-gutted them? Diana's good, but still not as good as when she could ult from 3 screens away. Rengar wasn't horrible after the nerf, imo, but these definitely help. IDK why Riot has "ungutted" Rengar. He was at a ridiculous level, and then was nerfed to ~ Kennen level, which is a bit low but not bad. And considering he still has so many potentially toxic features that its better to let him languish a while to see if he really was that weak. Honestly, I thought the only over the top thing was his heal and stealth. Giving stealth a charge time made it more balanced, since it actually requires a bit of thought now and can't be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, and the heal... well I can't say that I'm in love with the new iteration (I think flat amounts like that are iffy at best), but honestly I was ok with just nerfing the % heal. Yeah you were near impossible to kill just stacking health, but there are champs who can do way more damage/utility just by stacking health and resists. His damage was on an acceptable level for it, imo. Speaking of Rengar, I think he's another prime candidate for IBG, though I may just like that item too much. I like TF on him, but I never felt any part of the Zeal was really necessary since you have a slow/snare, a jump, and stealth, and now that his heal is flat instead of health scaling, the armor is a nice synergy. Plus, CDR is godly on him like all other manaless champs. The mana is wasted, sure, but I think it's worth it. I've been going jungle Rengar in norms, cloth5>brut>necklace>warmogs I started w/ the machete but I think it's a waste, Rengar's clear times are fine w/o it.
I think that depends on how much you get to gank. Getting Razor(and maybe Wriggle’s) makes you tear through the jungle at blinding speeds with your Q buff. Perhaps not necessary, but if you find yourself in freefarm mode, it could make you decidedly better at it.
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Got my account back, The scumbag hacker spent all my IP though. On runes that I wanted but was waiting on buying because I wanted thresh more.
He also some how got me Santa Baron. So I don't really mind too much.
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On January 19 2013 07:34 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 06:48 Bladeorade wrote:
Yes Monte your right I play Vi top. I think she performs better as an ad caster then a jungling tank hybrid. I like having a tanky jungler so I can go full AD. I don't find she needs AS if you build AD.
Ult Q auto is 3 stacks of W giving you AS followed by e auto e stacking it again proccing W twice. One shots squishies and applies BC in aoe with Ult charge Q if it hits more than one person and double E. She has huge damage with this combo and I have had 0 trouble top. I usually start flask Ward 2 pots Max q and since E scales better with AD Max W second.
Brutalizer boots cleaver thirster GA LW Mogs or Mallet. Unstoppable top I'm way too enamoured with raid bosses to play her like that. Top would probably end up being tabi/locket/wit's/mallet, with stuff like randuin's, warmogs, zephyr or bulwark to finish. AS+CDR then just slap as much defense as you can on her. As for the order, I actually agree, Monte. I ran some maths at Vi's release and Q was more mana-efficient because of the damage scaling on E: despite its cost staying flat, you end up needing one more E to deal the same damage as the Q first combo, so you pay a bit more (and need to have the 2 Es, but it's easy when maxed first). Since my previous game was with E first and your build, I went for Q first in my last one. More mobility, which helped (Rammus+roaming Jayce). I noticed I had more trouble killing big creeps (most notably big golem and buffs) later on but that's because I derped, went autopilot and maxed E second. W second adds a lot of damage to the jungler monsters as they scale (same for killing drake ans Nash). It was mostly because of the ganks that I tried the E first (I knew Smash was talking from a top lane perspective), but having faced a bunch of mobile champs in those 2 games, Q cdr would have been better in both. It also allows to have W maxed by the time big fights start happening so you get better dps. Also Q moves you across camps faster and stacks then nicely for a follow-up E. I def. liked the stinger though, smoothe build-up than wit's if you back with less than 900 gold, and zephyr doesn't really waste anything. The combine cost is actually somewhat brutal if you need the tenacity early on and went tabi.
Zephyr's combine cost is really monstrous, but it's understandable. For that 1200g you're getting 10 AD, 10% Movement Speed, 10% Attack Speed, 10% CDR, and Tenacity. It's pretty ridiculous just how much you get out of that one item.
The problem is finding an opportunity to finish it as a jungler. You're going to generally want at least Mallet + Warden's + Negatron before saving up for that.
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United States47024 Posts
Zephyr's combine cost is necessarily huge. It gives ~3700 gold worth of stats for 2850 gold.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:38 Cixah wrote:
Got my account back, The scumbag hacker spent all my IP though. On runes that I wanted but was waiting on buying because I wanted thresh more.
He also some how got me Santa Baron. So I don't really mind too much.
At least you got your account back, also now by the time you have IP for Thresh he'll be down to 6300 IP from 7800 IP.
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On January 19 2013 07:19 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:On January 19 2013 06:37 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:17 Dusty wrote:
Has anyone tried out Diana and Rengar now that Riot has un-gutted them? Diana's good, but still not as good as when she could ult from 3 screens away. Rengar wasn't horrible after the nerf, imo, but these definitely help. IDK why Riot has "ungutted" Rengar. He was at a ridiculous level, and then was nerfed to ~ Kennen level, which is a bit low but not bad. And considering he still has so many potentially toxic features that its better to let him languish a while to see if he really was that weak. Honestly, I thought the only over the top thing was his heal and stealth. Giving stealth a charge time made it more balanced, since it actually requires a bit of thought now and can't be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, and the heal... well I can't say that I'm in love with the new iteration (I think flat amounts like that are iffy at best), but honestly I was ok with just nerfing the % heal. Yeah you were near impossible to kill just stacking health, but there are champs who can do way more damage/utility just by stacking health and resists. His damage was on an acceptable level for it, imo. Speaking of Rengar, I think he's another prime candidate for IBG, though I may just like that item too much. I like TF on him, but I never felt any part of the Zeal was really necessary since you have a slow/snare, a jump, and stealth, and now that his heal is flat instead of health scaling, the armor is a nice synergy. Plus, CDR is godly on him like all other manaless champs. The mana is wasted, sure, but I think it's worth it.
Well there is all that, plus manaless.
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Are you sure about the cdr? According to the wiki both Stinger and Zephyr are at 10% (Zephyr's isn't unique anymore though).
By the way Yango, do you value the tenacity in these numbers? If so, which value do you put on it?
Edit: apparently (wiki again) it's that hugely cost-efficient without even accounting for the tenacity. Wow. @_@ Didn't play much Irelia/Jax this patch so those games were the first times I built it.
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On January 19 2013 07:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:19 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:49 cLutZ wrote:On January 19 2013 06:37 Requizen wrote:On January 19 2013 06:17 Dusty wrote:
Has anyone tried out Diana and Rengar now that Riot has un-gutted them? Diana's good, but still not as good as when she could ult from 3 screens away. Rengar wasn't horrible after the nerf, imo, but these definitely help. IDK why Riot has "ungutted" Rengar. He was at a ridiculous level, and then was nerfed to ~ Kennen level, which is a bit low but not bad. And considering he still has so many potentially toxic features that its better to let him languish a while to see if he really was that weak. Honestly, I thought the only over the top thing was his heal and stealth. Giving stealth a charge time made it more balanced, since it actually requires a bit of thought now and can't be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, and the heal... well I can't say that I'm in love with the new iteration (I think flat amounts like that are iffy at best), but honestly I was ok with just nerfing the % heal. Yeah you were near impossible to kill just stacking health, but there are champs who can do way more damage/utility just by stacking health and resists. His damage was on an acceptable level for it, imo. Speaking of Rengar, I think he's another prime candidate for IBG, though I may just like that item too much. I like TF on him, but I never felt any part of the Zeal was really necessary since you have a slow/snare, a jump, and stealth, and now that his heal is flat instead of health scaling, the armor is a nice synergy. Plus, CDR is godly on him like all other manaless champs. The mana is wasted, sure, but I think it's worth it. Well there is all that, plus manaless.
Manaless is a beast in and of itself.
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On January 19 2013 07:48 Alaric wrote:
Are you sure about the cdr? According to the wiki both Stinger and Zephyr are at 10% (Zephyr's isn't unique anymore though).
By the way Yango, do you value the tenacity in these numbers? If so, which value do you put on it?
Doesn't include the tenacity.
The largest component you get out of that 1200 gold is the % MS.
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On January 19 2013 07:20 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:05 VayneAuthority wrote:
from my experience with shaco popping my boxes does absolutely nothing to hurt my clear speed and only benefits me as you risk giving us easy FB.
the only benefit of starting off with jitbs is you dont need teammate help which is nice if they wanna go do something else What? An entire team runs at your buff at 1:54. There's nothing you can do to stop them, and you're losing your buff while helping the enemy jungler.
uh that works on any jungler if your team doesnt defend you. thats not specific to shaco lol
shaco just has an easier time preventing invades with jitbs since they are AOE fears...which are pretty strong lvl 1
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On January 19 2013 07:38 Cixah wrote:
Got my account back, The scumbag hacker spent all my IP though. On runes that I wanted but was waiting on buying because I wanted thresh more.
He also some how got me Santa Baron. So I don't really mind too much.
Couldn't you just ask Riot Support for a refund of the runes for IP? I mean, if they're willing to give refunds for champions that you don't like I'm sure they'll be willing to grant you that.
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What is, or what is a jitbs?
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EPT
