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United States47024 Posts
On December 30 2012 04:32 barbsq wrote:
solo queue players have absolutely no clue how to play with a mid zilean or karma.
I mean, that's also the issue of the team needing to have 100% trust in Zilean/Karma because of how they function. With Zilean every team member needs to be ready to go balls-deep no matter how low they are and trust the Zilean player's mechanics. Same with Karma, really.
It's honestly harder to get a 5s team used to playing WITH Zilean than it is for the Zilean player to get used to playing Zilean.
Nobody has that level of trust in solo queue for good reason.
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On December 30 2012 04:18 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 03:02 Numy wrote:On December 30 2012 02:54 Seuss wrote:
So I don't really understand the "toxic" label anymore, and I'm not sure what Riot is seeing in Riven. It's quite simple. When you want to nerf something call it toxic. When you releasing a champion that has similar mechanic to something you called toxic before say how you will never release a champion like that again. Riot devs seem to be 90% marketing speak. Morello's actually given his reasoning for Riven being toxic. Something about how her ult let her keep an advantage by killing someone again immediately when they came back to lane. Honestly sounds like Morello got his ass handed to him one time too many by a Riven. It's really subjective and I could come up with a hundred more abuse cases for why a hundred champions are toxic. The reason why Riven's ult is toxic is because she also doesn't use mana.
Well most mid/top champs have a 120 seconds cooldown on their ult at least at rank 1, 100 for a few shorter ones, with some exceptions (Galio's is much longer, Ahri is a bit shorter, Irelia is damn short and surprises me everytime I look at the total damage, and Darius has no cd if he killed you using it).
Riven's is 75s, going down, and pretty much like Singed its duration covers a fair bit of the cooldown. Add in the death timer, the time it takes to come back to lane, and if she's strong enough to kill you or force a back whenever she ults you would actually spend almost more time out of lane than ready to farm. It's a huge bullying tool.
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On December 30 2012 04:35 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:18 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 30 2012 03:02 Numy wrote:On December 30 2012 02:54 Seuss wrote:
So I don't really understand the "toxic" label anymore, and I'm not sure what Riot is seeing in Riven. It's quite simple. When you want to nerf something call it toxic. When you releasing a champion that has similar mechanic to something you called toxic before say how you will never release a champion like that again. Riot devs seem to be 90% marketing speak. Morello's actually given his reasoning for Riven being toxic. Something about how her ult let her keep an advantage by killing someone again immediately when they came back to lane. Honestly sounds like Morello got his ass handed to him one time too many by a Riven. It's really subjective and I could come up with a hundred more abuse cases for why a hundred champions are toxic. The reason why Riven's ult is toxic is because she also doesn't use mana. Well most mid/top champs have a 120 seconds cooldown on their ult at least at rank 1, 100 for a few shorter ones, with some exceptions (Galio's is much longer, Ahri is a bit shorter, Irelia is damn short and surprises me everytime I look at the total damage, and Darius has no cd if he killed you using it). Riven's is 75s, going down, and pretty much like Singed its duration covers a fair bit of the cooldown. Add in the death timer, the time it takes to come back to lane, and if she's strong enough to kill you or force a back whenever she ults you would actually spend almost more time out of lane than ready to farm. It's a huge bullying tool.
So nerf her health regeneration is the solution?
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United States47024 Posts
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 30 2012 04:40 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid.
This is compounded in soloq if you leave your lane to try and help push/make a play and your teammates just complain that you are taking farm/exp.
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There's a distinct lack of "team" mindset in the community of a team game. That's the biggest issue.
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On December 30 2012 04:42 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:40 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid. This is compounded in soloq if you leave your lane to try and help push/make a play and your teammates just complain that you are taking farm/exp.
A lot of the time that's because this is what you're doing - you need to first see (or create) an opportunity before you can push down a lane. For example if you go mid lane to push while both mids are full hp chances are you can't get more than 100-150 hp off of the turret. However, if your jungle just ganked bot and enemy bot lane is now backing, then you have an opportunity to bring 3-4 people mid and push, or if you simply killed the enemy mid first you would be able to push it.
I know this was a bit messy, but my point is that a large amount of the time where people think they can help by pushing it's simply not possible to get any significant damage on the turret.
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On December 30 2012 04:40 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid.
I agree to an extent, I mean to say you are right but instant wave clear and wraiths are also a big part of the problem, top lane gets doubles at best.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 30 2012 04:47 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:42 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 30 2012 04:40 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid. This is compounded in soloq if you leave your lane to try and help push/make a play and your teammates just complain that you are taking farm/exp. A lot of the time that's because this is what you're doing - you need to first see (or create) an opportunity before you can push down a lane. For example if you go mid lane to push while both mids are full hp chances are you can't get more than 100-150 hp off of the turret. However, if your jungle just ganked bot and enemy bot lane is now backing, then you have an opportunity to bring 3-4 people mid and push, or if you simply killed the enemy mid first you would be able to push it. I know this was a bit messy, but my point is that a large amount of the time where people think they can help by pushing it's simply not possible to get any significant damage on the turret.
This is just a measure of someone's overall map awareness. Still, I've seen people bitch and moan about losing out on CS when pushing down the tower was the right option. Plus in this scenario where the Top Laner has been pushed out of lane the usual laning phase practices should be altered unless you just want your Top to continue to feed/get behind in lane for the rest of the game.
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On December 30 2012 04:51 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:40 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem there is that top laners at almost all levels of play don't understand what to do when you can't go back to lane so they do nothing. Mid lane has quite a few matchups where one player can reach the point of "kill the other player whenever ult is up", and blue buff reduces CDs for mid laners--but mid laners also generally learn how to make plays, so they can make back a lot of ground by killing the other lanes if mid lane isn't safe--which forces the other mid laner to push waves rather than freezing lane and farming. Top lane has been this island for a long time that people just completely get the idea of moving around the map and making plays when they play top lane, so something that forces you out of lane like that feels "toxic" when it's more or less commonplace in mid. I agree to an extent, I mean to say you are right but instant wave clear and wraiths are also a big part of the problem, top lane gets doubles at best.
top nunu abuses double golems like no other
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does not allow him to stay farming top in a lost matchup nearly as much as instagibbing mid wave then clearing wraiths with 2 spells does. thats more or less my point, much like Yango's mid has a lot of options when their lane opponenet can gib them, top does not.
it's actually a mistake (imo) that a lot of mids make, I was playing Fizz vs a Lux just yesterday (they picked into me don't ask me why) she went chalice first (standard) but then after I killed her she finished athene's and bought a negatron to stop me from killing her, what she really should have done is just buy a fucking needless and keep me shoved but w/e.
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On December 30 2012 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:35 Alaric wrote:On December 30 2012 04:18 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 30 2012 03:02 Numy wrote:On December 30 2012 02:54 Seuss wrote:
So I don't really understand the "toxic" label anymore, and I'm not sure what Riot is seeing in Riven. It's quite simple. When you want to nerf something call it toxic. When you releasing a champion that has similar mechanic to something you called toxic before say how you will never release a champion like that again. Riot devs seem to be 90% marketing speak. Morello's actually given his reasoning for Riven being toxic. Something about how her ult let her keep an advantage by killing someone again immediately when they came back to lane. Honestly sounds like Morello got his ass handed to him one time too many by a Riven. It's really subjective and I could come up with a hundred more abuse cases for why a hundred champions are toxic. The reason why Riven's ult is toxic is because she also doesn't use mana. Well most mid/top champs have a 120 seconds cooldown on their ult at least at rank 1, 100 for a few shorter ones, with some exceptions (Galio's is much longer, Ahri is a bit shorter, Irelia is damn short and surprises me everytime I look at the total damage, and Darius has no cd if he killed you using it). Riven's is 75s, going down, and pretty much like Singed its duration covers a fair bit of the cooldown. Add in the death timer, the time it takes to come back to lane, and if she's strong enough to kill you or force a back whenever she ults you would actually spend almost more time out of lane than ready to farm. It's a huge bullying tool. So nerf her health regeneration is the solution?
Her health regen has been significantly higher than a lot of other tops for a long period of time. Riot has tried nerfing in small amounts in the past and still hasn't found where they thing it should be at. Her ult CD is getting adjusted in the next patch aswell.
Blade of the Exile [ R ]
Cooldown is now 110/85/50 Seconds (Up from 75/60/45 Seconds)
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When I fall behind top to the point that I can't stay in lane (and I don't derp and try to farm anyway just to feed) I generally look at opportunities for plays, for example a drake if our botlane is ahead.
Two problems I've found are the lack of reaction from the team (you tell them you'll come to force a drake because your lane is losing, if they're ahead they'll want to stay and farm and not react to you, or you try to convince them to go and take towers to make space to farm and prevent the cs gap top to get bigger by forcing him to roam too and they complain because they won't be able to zone anymore if you do that), which has already been addressed, and the time window you have to make those plays.
Especially if you're blue side as the drake is farer, and if you have to take a detour to dive the bot turret, if the enemy top has good waveclear he'll often be able to shove the lane then run to mid/drake and if he's that stronger than you (compounded by any poke they may have) they may be able to contest/defend anyway. Again, this relies on your team
a) agreeing to a play
b) reacting to it soon enough that the enemy team can't group up
Of course with my level there's a lot of stuff that I'm lacking (for example with wards and bluffs you could make so the other top doesn't assume you're going in the eastern part of the map).
I think there's also the fact that depending on match-ups the jungler can help mid a lot more than top as he doesn't have to "isolate" bot lane and its buff as much to exert pressure there.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 30 2012 05:00 Alaric wrote:
When I fall behind top to the point that I can't stay in lane (and I don't derp and try to farm anyway just to feed) I generally look at opportunities for plays, for example a drake if our botlane is ahead.
Two problems I've found are the lack of reaction from the team (you tell them you'll come to force a drake because your lane is losing, if they're ahead they'll want to stay and farm and not react to you, or you try to convince them to go and take towers to make space to farm and prevent the cs gap top to get bigger by forcing him to roam too and they complain because they won't be able to zone anymore if you do that), which has already been addressed, and the time window you have to make those plays.
Especially if you're blue side as the drake is farer, and if you have to take a detour to dive the bot turret, if the enemy top has good waveclear he'll often be able to shove the lane then run to mid/drake and if he's that stronger than you (compounded by any poke they may have) they may be able to contest/defend anyway. Again, this relies on your team
a) agreeing to a play
b) reacting to it soon enough that the enemy team can't group up
Of course with my level there's a lot of stuff that I'm lacking (for example with wards and bluffs you could make so the other top doesn't assume you're going in the eastern part of the map).
I think there's also the fact that depending on match-ups the jungler can help mid a lot more than top as he doesn't have to "isolate" bot lane and its buff as much to exert pressure there.
Yeah, it's a combination of the lack of teamwork and lack of options. Mid can shove, bot has a second player to fall back on, jungler has the jungle. If you get behind top, you getting back into the game relies directly on how accommodating your team is.
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Just like "meta" and "cheese", "toxic" lost meaning once it started being spouted non stop by the whole community. We need a popular caster to start using some random word like Lulu's "transmogulate" on a regular basis to describe a very specific action (for example when top laners come down for dragon), as a social experiment to see how long until everyone uses it for different actions.
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On December 30 2012 04:08 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 11:39 101toss wrote:
Time for me to play nostradomus
1. Teemo's base damage gets nerfed
2. People realize liandry's is a noob trap (especially for non-teemo champs)
3. Call myself nostradomus and collect league karma Hey guys, I'm nostradomus, please give me league karma
Except you are wrong about #2. Liandry's is pretty legitimate on Anivia as her ult is great for initiation and will proc Liandry's on up to the entire enemy team.
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Reminds me of a story from high school where we actually conditioned a guy to say "dick in my mouth" in a public setting lol.
procing AoE version of Liandry's =/= legit on anything not stacking hp
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On December 30 2012 05:07 Dan HH wrote:
Just like "meta" and "cheese", "toxic" lost meaning once it started being spouted non stop by the whole community. We need a popular caster to start using some random word like Lulu's "transmogulate" on a regular basis to describe a very specific action (for example when top laners come down for dragon), as a social experiment to see how long until everyone uses it for different actions.
You totally metagamed this, yo.
Toxic cheese is also really not healthy.
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Scarra playing AP Alistar on his stream. It destroyed me so hard when I faced it in the middle of s2 before the nerfs, burst+instaclear at the same time. 
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United States23745 Posts
On December 30 2012 05:07 Dan HH wrote:
Just like "meta" and "cheese", "toxic" lost meaning once it started being spouted non stop by the whole community. We need a popular caster to start using some random word like Lulu's "transmogulate" on a regular basis to describe a very specific action (for example when top laners come down for dragon), as a social experiment to see how long until everyone uses it for different actions.
These days "cheese" is just synonyms with not following the meta. Kind of annoying, it has this undeserved negative connotation associated with it.
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EPT
