EPT[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 162
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:04 little fancy wrote: Am I just mad or ist Cleaver still OP as fuck? Or maybe I'm just late to the party. My team lost three games in a row to teams without an AP mid / top. All they have is Talon / Kha'zix / Pantheon mid who rushes Cleaver and any AD jungler (Nocturne perfect example) that has a Cleaver soon, too. Nothing you can do, I die instantly as a squishy. I thought this was only a solo queue trend, but it seems to work in premade play just fine. Irrc, in yesterday's OGN CJE vs. AZF had the same shit and it went well. Who needs AP? And the PBE notes say Riot's going to buff the Cleaver armor shred again... wtf?! Yeah I'm real worried about the BC buff in the next patch. Luckily I'm on vacation for the next 2 weeks so I'm just staying out of ranked and letting things settle. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
i'm thinking burst is quick single target damage, and not sustained damage. i have... anivia (ERQ) annie (QRWQ) ahri (many combinations) brand (EQWR) diana (WQRER) elise (human QWRQW) eve (dfg-REQ) kass (QRE) kat (QEWR) leblanc (dunno, never played her) lux (QER) morgana (QWR, or WQR, or RWQ) ori (many combinations) ryze (QWEQ) syndra (QREWQ) veigar (many combinations) viktor (dunno, never played him) zyra (EWWQR) when i look at this list and compare to syndra... syndra has a burst, AOE stun + sustained damage. the closest to her is annie, but syndra has better range for sustained damage. looking at mid picks in competitive, who do we have? i tend to see... anivia, orianna, (pre-nerf)diana, eve, katarina, gragas, karthus, tf, vlad i feel like one of the common threads in top tier mids is the ability to initiate at nearly any stage of the game, whether it's 5v5 teamfights or smaller skirmishes. i don't think syndra has that. syndra also doesn't counter initiate well--it gets too messy to get a good multi-stun once they initiate on you. she's kinda locked in to the secondary initiate role, and the first initiate needs to be give her enough space to be able to fire it without dying. her farming ability is good. not anivia good, but she can clear waves really quickly. i've always wanted to play more syndra, but whenever i get to play mid, ori and anivia seem to have a lot more synergy with solo q teams than syndra. definitely need to play her more. when S2 was winding down i'd always play syndra mid with my friends and did reasonably well. she's also really solid in 3s. i've only lost a couple games with her, she has a fast jungle clear for the mid game, burst is really good, small corridors make it easy to hit or at least threaten your stun, and the extra money + mana regen rate helps you bully early game. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Regarding BC I fear Talon/Pantheon with a BT much more than with a BC. Dumb build unless you can litter the enemy team with debuff and have a lot of AoE AD. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:27 Alaric wrote: I tried it, along with Ryze, in the beginning. A lot of dashes fucked me up because their range is greater than the device's width, so your cc is almost non-existent compared to Ryze and Swain. That was before all of his bugfixes tho so maybe it's better now, I have no idea. Regarding BC I fear Talon/Pantheon with a BT much morethan with a BC. Dumb build unless you can litter the enemy team with debuff and have a lot of AoE AD. Imo the scariest thing about the bc isn't the armor shred but rather that it also gives a significant amount of hp on top of that. Dps wise, it does about as much as a stacked BT unless you're fighting tanks. The biggest issue is that it provides the damage of a BT while giving you a nice chunk of hp, which is arguably more useful than resists given how good aegis/bulwark is atm. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z3TJhHE5QlQ/UKX0Ly-ydcI/AAAAAAAAKCs/zXVLRyTnta4/s1600/viktor.png | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:54 kongoline wrote: viktor might become fotm if riot adds lvl2 upgrades to the augmentation http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z3TJhHE5QlQ/UKX0Ly-ydcI/AAAAAAAAKCs/zXVLRyTnta4/s1600/viktor.png Those were only accidentally entered for S3 after being rejected in Viktor's Alpha/pre-PBE settings. | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:54 kongoline wrote: viktor might become fotm if riot adds lvl2 upgrades to the augmentation http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z3TJhHE5QlQ/UKX0Ly-ydcI/AAAAAAAAKCs/zXVLRyTnta4/s1600/viktor.png Holy shit, is this legit an idea by riot or by a fan? Edit: so it's an idea they had for him before release, but dam those stats lol | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
Also Definitely need q max first with adc type runes for top viktor. Just keep auto attacking them to shit and hide in the minion line and have them deal the damage you need when they jump onto you. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
You really don't want to play him in draft unless you last pick him because sooo many things counter him (Teemo, Malphite, so much other stuff). But in blindpick nobody knows, so you just build BT PD IE and you 3 shot everyone. I really really wish that there was a way to make melee carries work because Tryndamere is pretty damn close to a true hypercarry and so fun. Maybe some gimmick with Urgot bottom lane could work... meh. Probably not. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:00 LazyFailKid wrote: Holy shit, is this legit an idea by riot or by a fan? Edit: so it's an idea they had for him before release, but dam those stats lol well the guy who posted it wrote riot is working on it but they obviously are going to be toned down | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:09 Scip wrote: Tryndamere jungle is the most fun champion to play in blind pick normals. You really don't want to play him in draft unless you last pick him because sooo many things counter him (Teemo, Malphite, so much other stuff). But in blindpick nobody knows, so you just build BT PD IE and you 3 shot everyone. I really really wish that there was a way to make melee carries work because Tryndamere is pretty damn close to a true hypercarry and so fun. Maybe some gimmick with Urgot bottom lane could work... meh. Probably not. He's a fucking pain in the ass. He was my most hated hero to play against back when he was seen often | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:04 little fancy wrote:Am I just mad or ist Cleaver still OP as fuck? I don't really think black cleaver is *that* bad at this point. If they wanted to, they could probably just do targeted champion nerfs and it would be okay. That being said, I don't particular enjoy being an ADC and getting blown up almost instantly, and having a huge disincentive to build armor because it is going to get shredded anyways. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:54 kongoline wrote: viktor might become fotm if riot adds lvl2 upgrades to the augmentation http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z3TJhHE5QlQ/UKX0Ly-ydcI/AAAAAAAAKCs/zXVLRyTnta4/s1600/viktor.png If that happens, Viktor would be blatantly broken. He's plenty strong as is, if anything need to make augment a bit cheaper, so his midgame power spike feels a bit stronger/earlier. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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ChaoSbringer
Australia1382 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Also, building armor should counter AD damage, period, especially AD Burst. Just like how MR counters AP damage, especially AP burst. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On December 27 2012 10:39 Ryuu314 wrote: Imo the scariest thing about the bc isn't the armor shred but rather that it also gives a significant amount of hp on top of that. Dps wise, it does about as much as a stacked BT unless you're fighting tanks. The biggest issue is that it provides the damage of a BT while giving you a nice chunk of hp, which is arguably more useful than resists given how good aegis/bulwark is atm. No. Just no. I see every single damn Pantheon or Talon rush it. Kha? Riven? Rengar? I can understand. One of those two? STOP HERE. BC isn't good for burst, not when your primary sources of damage are used to stack the BT, and then when their armor is reduced you don't have them. Yeah, HSS gets 3 stacks in AoE. HSS is also one of the best non-ultimate abilities in the game when it comes to raw AD damage. If you get a BC, you want it stacked before you HSS, or else your goal isn't to do damage. I can see BC on Panth. If you started bruta rather than BT, and they start getting armor, then sure, 1700 is less than the 2100 from LW, if you need some armor mitigation now. But other than that, you having to HSS to get stacks on so another AD source of damage in your team can put the hurt down on them means that your role is that of a secondary damage dealer. Considering Panth's burst and scaling, it means two things: - you're in the late game, where auto scaling beats spells regardless of cooldowns, your AD carry is a glass cannon while you had to build some tankiness (if you know your stuff) and he is way more important than you. Makes sense. - you fell behind in lane and decided to build accordingly, seeing how you have less gold and are less prone to make stuff happen. Makes sense too, BC gives you some tankiness and utility, now get some more tankiness and utility and acknowledge that being behind means you do more by not dying than by buying what little damage your money allows and dying right after you unload a rotation. But every damn single player rushes BC first. Especially when they're fed. You're at your power peak! Don't buy some fucking stuff that's better for helping your team's damage than for you to do your job right now! You aren't behind in lane! Don't build like you pretend you are and just abuse your lead to increase the gap and make other lanes win! I got a spreadsheet calculating Talon's burst at level 9, 11 and 13, considering ~3k gold invested in damage (BF+3 dblades as one's unlikely to rush a naked BT, LW+2 dblades, and bruta+2 blades+pickaxe), AD or ArPen marks (no quints but it allows for it) and an opponent (I used Cass) with or without armor yellows and a chainvest. TL;DR, the BF case sucks, ArPen marks > AD marks always, and LW > bruta as soon as chainvest gets added to the equation, regardless of the other variables (level, Talon's and opponent's runes). I just used it to calculate with a BT. It always wins, except when chainvest gets in the equation where it stays nearly even with LW at level 11 and loses by less than 50 damage at level 13 (over ~900 post-mitigation). And it didn't take the %ArPen mastery into account. And it calculates stuff according to s2. It's even better in s3! BC beats raw AD for 2 cases: - When people start getting a lot of armor. I mean a lot. - When you use spells and your base damage is high enough that the %increase you get from reducing their armor beats your ratios. Turns out when you use BC in your combo as an AD caster you waste said base damage by using those spells to stack BC, so it doesn't even get its full efficiency unless you're sticky and tanky enough to reach them, throw some autos and then use your spells! Which no one does! It works better in organized comps because they waste a lot less of their damage when they have low cd poke/AoE abilities to get the stacks on several people without wasting their base damage (MF's ult is godly for this, not only because it's AoE with great range, but because it ticks every 0.25 second so it stacks blazingly fast and you can jump in when she starts casting and still get most of your combo on stacked targets). Their BCs synergizes with each other because if they have AoE abilities to use first (ie not HSS, rather Noc's Q) then by each using one, they litter your whole team with the full stacks without wasting their damage, and then they put the hurt. But when you're soloQing and somebody gets fed on the enemy team and buys a BC, just be fucking happy that he didn't rush BT instead because he'd do even more damage to you and have big sustain for terrible terrible clean-ups. It's not because everyone does it and it used to be OP that it's good. What made BC good was the stacking of it so they don't waste damage, and everybody had one on the team anyway. A single BC is less damage than a single BT, and possibly than a lone LW (for the cost anyway, it is) on the full combo of an AD caster. /end of rant | ||
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