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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:36 ChaoSbringer wrote: They're intentionally OP to see how they change/affect Viktor playstyle. Those would never go live. With Riot's track record, they easily could. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:09 Scip wrote: Tryndamere jungle is the most fun champion to play in blind pick normals. You really don't want to play him in draft unless you last pick him because sooo many things counter him (Teemo, Malphite, so much other stuff). But in blindpick nobody knows, so you just build BT PD IE and you 3 shot everyone. I really really wish that there was a way to make melee carries work because Tryndamere is pretty damn close to a true hypercarry and so fun. Maybe some gimmick with Urgot bottom lane could work... meh. Probably not. We're loading a game with Anivia and Janna in the enemy team. Blind pick nobody knows, he said.  | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Yeah, HSS gets 3 stacks in AoE. HSS is also one of the best non-ultimate abilities in the game when it comes to raw AD damage. If you get a BC, you want it stacked before you HSS, or else your goal isn't to do damage. I don't agree that HSS is either one of the best non ults in the game or that it's a large a part of your burst. Most panths still max spear first. The bigger problem is that Panth will lead with spear when the opponent has no stacks. BT is still a pretty shitty item imo since it operates on loseable stacks but for Panth's standard combo a fully stacked BT will still do more damage than a BC I agree. Everything else sounds right and there are definitely some ways to make BC more effective than others. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Yi fotm incoming | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 27 2012 12:51 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't agree that HSS is either one of the best non ults in the game or that it's a large a part of your burst. Most panths still max spear first. The bigger problem is that Panth will lead with spear when the opponent has no stacks. BT is still a pretty shitty item imo since it operates on loseable stacks but for Panth's standard combo a fully stacked BT will still do more damage than a BC I agree. Everything else sounds right and there are definitely some ways to make BC more effective than others. A full Heartseeker Strike does 320 + 3.6 bonus AD. That is so broken it's not even funny. The obvious problem is that it's an all-in move and you can't autoattack while using it. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Edit: Also for skills, E>Q>W with maxing Q>E>W? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 27 2012 13:23 Sufficiency wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/15hxuv/til_that_master_yi_can_get_an_8_second_randuins/ Yi fotm incoming Lol. It doesn't work. The order is meditate breaks -> randuin activates. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 27 2012 14:03 obesechicken13 wrote: Lol. It doesn't work. The order is meditate breaks -> randuin activates. Too bad I guess. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Even if it did work have you ever tried to meditate in the middle of an enemy team? It'd be a nice slow for smaller groups of targets but for single targets It'd be like mallet. I alpha striked into a group of people yesterday. I don't know if I actually reappeared after the alpha strike. Died too fast. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On December 27 2012 12:51 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't agree that HSS is either one of the best non ults in the game or that it's a large a part of your burst. Most panths still max spear first. The bigger problem is that Panth will lead with spear when the opponent has no stacks. BT is still a pretty shitty item imo since it operates on loseable stacks but for Panth's standard combo a fully stacked BT will still do more damage than a BC I agree. Everything else sounds right and there are definitely some ways to make BC more effective than others. The stacks last 4s, the same as Panth's spear's cooldown. But in lane, Panth is more about harassing people with spears and getting autos in as you can, then going in for the kill, than having long trades that are favored by champs like Irelia and Jax (Panth's passive and short cd on Q make him favor harass and frequent, super-short trades), so you get more out of AD than out of debuffing armor. After the laning phase ended you'll probably be near level 10, where Q (level 5) does 225 + 1.4 bonus AD damage, while E (level 3) does 200 + 3.6 bonus AD damage to champions. If you have a BT instead of a BC, that's 250 damage you have to make up for with the ArPen and passive if you want BC to be superior damage-wise (assuming a full channel HSS), and E does 195 damage more than Q. Q should do more damage over the course of a fight but E is a bigger part of your initial burst. Of course, as the game drags on your susceptibility to cc and lack of engage (your ult telegraphs your incoming position) will put you into a more defensive role where the scaling of HSS and some armor mitigation still makes you able to deal with lots of threats fairly well (Smash's explanation in the Pantheon thread convinced me, you can look it up if you want his reasoning), and for this role BC is even better than LW. As long as you're able to pop one of their squishies and not die immediatly, LW is probably stronger though. The same reasoning goes with Talon because he's a burst assassin and until later levels his W and ult are the bigger part of his damage. Your typical combo is E -> W -> auto -> Q -> ult (if you want to benefit from your passive on Q, you need the slow from W as it doesn't work with the silence from your E), which means you'll "waste" the burst from W and the Q auto part to apply those stacks. Since the DoT from Q will never outdamage the auto (30-150 + 0.3 bonus AD + total AD vs 18-90 + 1.2 bonus AD, even though the DoT applies stacks and so will "enhance" its damage against armored targets compared to the initial hit it's still 12-60 + base AD + 0.1 bonus AD in favor of the auto) you'd rather have your whole damage potential at that point. With BC, Talon will put 4 stacks on everyone taking both hits from both his W and R (which means most people should get 2 stacks from his ult, and maybe 2 will get 4 stacks, counting your target), taking 25% of their armor. With a LW, Talon would outright ignore 35% of his target's armor, which is both more and immediate. Seeing as his role is to burst down a single target, I'd rather get BT (because it gives more damage at that point) then LW (because my main target will take more damage from this than BC) to fill my role. Then I'll probably want a GA or something because another rotation will make me stronger than having a BC but dying after I get my target. Kha'Zix is another thing because his burst is lower than those two (his passive is magic damage, and his initial burst is "only" 4.1 bonus AD and something like 430 base damage + 200 magic at best, Talon for example has 900 + 4.5 bonus AD + his damage amplificators), but his ult, heal from W and resets from evolved E give him a lot more survivability, which means he can theorically operate longer in fights. He also has stupid strong dueling power thanks to the bonkers numbers on isolation Q (up to 280 + 2.8 bonus AD damage every 3.5s). His durability allows him to fight longer, and his Q is on a very short cooldown, so he doesn't suffer from the same "fall off" as Pantheon and Talon who rely on sheer burst (ie. bigger, less numerous sources of damage) to kill somebody outside of laning. If his passive was physical damage rather than magic it wouldn't even be close. He his also more prone to run to safety then join in again later, and help cleaning up, where his BC can help teammates, but that's a shaky argument so I'll leave it there. Rengar tends to auto a lot despite his theorical perfect combo being 500 + 5 total AD damage (if I get the wiki right; if I'm wrong, it's 8 total AD, which seems unlikely), and his other abilities' damage is either magical or weak (only 0.7 bonus AD on E) so it's unlikely for him to "waste" abilities' damage by using them to stack BC as he uses primarily autoattacks to deal his damage during fights. Since he's also built bruiser-like and "I may not harm that much but I'm dying slower than you anyway", he's proner to long fights than Talon. I dunno how it'll end up after the changes to his W though. Also, he lacks AoE to get stacks, so if you really want to kill somebody LW probably beats BC (unless small amounts of armor where the 10 ArPen will beat the % gap between the reduction from BC and penetration from LW, and when other, greater sources of damage are involved, as in Rengar + AD carry fighting the same target, where the BC stack will enhance the carry damage too). It's not that BC is bad. It's that BT beats BC early on for burst AD casters (especially single target focused assassins like Talon), and BT + LW/BC beats LW+BC unless your target has a really huge amount of armor, so it irates me to see people complain about BC-rushing people when BT would be even worse to deal with, and to see so many people rush BC->LW when they aim at a midgame crushing fight. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 27 2012 14:18 Alaric wrote: It's not that BC is bad. It's that BT beats BC early on for burst AD casters (especially single target focused assassins like Talon), and BT + LW/BC beats LW+BC unless your target has a really huge amount of armor, so it irates me to see people complain about BC-rushing people when BT would be even worse to deal with, and to see so many people rush BC->LW when they aim at a midgame crushing fight. I said I agreed that a fully stacked BT provided more burst. You didn't have to write so much again. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On December 27 2012 14:25 obesechicken13 wrote: I said I agreed that a fully stacked BT provided more burst. You didn't have to write so much again. I enjoyed the read. Well thought out points from Alaric. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 27 2012 14:25 obesechicken13 wrote: I said I agreed that a fully stacked BT provided more burst. You didn't have to write so much again. When talking about BC, one may not ignore that it's benefit is teamwide. Even if you only get 1 stack on a target, every other Physical damage is doing more. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 27 2012 14:18 Alaric wrote: bunch of stuff You're kinda missing the point I was making though. A fully stacked BT does more damage to the vast majority of targets than a BC. That's a given. However, you really can't ignore the fact that a BC on champs like Panth can apply the armor shred to multiple people. Even in solo q, being able to reduce the armor of 2+ people by 25% is huge. Everyone in League does incidental physical damage, whether through abilities or auto-attacks. Also, my main point was that getting a BC gives you some measure of tankiness along with significant damage, whereas a BT offers nothing but raw damage. Even if you're very far ahead, as a melee champ, you need to ensure you don't get blown up before you can do your shit. BT's sustain does nothing to help you survive teamfights, whereas BC's hp does. As far as item buildup goes, BC is arguably superior to a BT. Getting a brutalizer is akin to getting guise on AP champs. It's practically core on AD casters in most cases. Being able to get a Bruta+a fully stacked BT before laning ends is a pretty tall order. If you can manage that you're probably getting fed out of your ass and it really doesn't matter what you're building. The buildup to a BC is quite piecemeal; the largest single component is ~1.1k, which is the recipe for BC. On the other hand, getting a BT forces you to save up ~1.5k, which is a pretty significant time lull in power. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Obviously, unless you're an assassin that could/should get LW to, well, assassinate an enemy carry even through lategame, as the game (and the average teamfight) drags on a BC is probably a better buy because your AD carry likes other items better and does more damage than you anyway. My posts could be TL;DR'd to: - In the midgame the burst casters are the biggest powerhouses (along with true damage stuff like Olaf and Irelia, Cho'Gath kinda counts as a caster unless you go for stuff like wit's for E), them being able to 100-0 with certainty has more value than exchanging a part of your burst for enhancing a bit the damage of physical allies. - When it is possible to max BC stacks on several targets without gimping your damage, BC is actually better than BT past an armor threshold (depending on level and stuff so we won't bother). Which is why teams lining up several physical champs and getting BCs on each of them can abuse it to bypass a load of armor and retain most of their burst for this critical point. -> BC rush actually makes more sense in these comps (esp. with abilities like Noc's Q, Nasus' E, Jayce's ranged Q or Sivir's Q) than for a lone burst caster. That was one of the reasons why I complained about BC's mechanic when it was revealed: it's a better AD bruiser item than AD caster item because you don't give up your primary sources of damage to stack it, while Riot promised new AD caster items. Edit: as for the build-up I agree that BC is alot smoother than BT. In s2 had you the choice skipping bruta was stronger because you reached a BT earlier and that load of AD was stronger than having to sit on bruta while farming a BFS if your opponent actually bought armor, but the build-up offered by BC in s3 alleviates the pressure to punish before chainvest a lot. On the other hand vamp, which you were pretty much forced to take (at least top) and would thus reduce the gap to BT is more expensive now and less likely to be bought. In a situation where you are free to get bruta or rush BT though I'd favor BT, so it depends a bit on the lane and match-ups. Maybe I'm biased by my experience in which I've never been hard-pressed while saving up without already losing the lane by a wide margin (in which case BT or even LW were better buys in s2, and BC is by far and wide in s3, as I said in my first post). | ||
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
On December 27 2012 13:45 Diamond wrote: What runes/masteries is everyone running on jungle Zed? Edit: Also for skills, E>Q>W with maxing Q>E>W? Your standard AD runes should be fine Arp-Armor-MR-AD Masteries are 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 And with jungle Zed you should be maxing E first. | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On December 27 2012 11:36 Alaric wrote: No. Just no. I see every single damn Pantheon or Talon rush it. Kha? Riven? Rengar? I can understand. One of those two? STOP HERE. BC isn't good for burst, not when your primary sources of damage are used to stack the BT, and then when their armor is reduced you don't have them. Yeah, HSS gets 3 stacks in AoE. HSS is also one of the best non-ultimate abilities in the game when it comes to raw AD damage. If you get a BC, you want it stacked before you HSS, or else your goal isn't to do damage. I can see BC on Panth. If you started bruta rather than BT, and they start getting armor, then sure, 1700 is less than the 2100 from LW, if you need some armor mitigation now. But other than that, you having to HSS to get stacks on so another AD source of damage in your team can put the hurt down on them means that your role is that of a secondary damage dealer. Considering Panth's burst and scaling, it means two things: - you're in the late game, where auto scaling beats spells regardless of cooldowns, your AD carry is a glass cannon while you had to build some tankiness (if you know your stuff) and he is way more important than you. Makes sense. - you fell behind in lane and decided to build accordingly, seeing how you have less gold and are less prone to make stuff happen. Makes sense too, BC gives you some tankiness and utility, now get some more tankiness and utility and acknowledge that being behind means you do more by not dying than by buying what little damage your money allows and dying right after you unload a rotation. But every damn single player rushes BC first. Especially when they're fed. You're at your power peak! Don't buy some fucking stuff that's better for helping your team's damage than for you to do your job right now! You aren't behind in lane! Don't build like you pretend you are and just abuse your lead to increase the gap and make other lanes win! I got a spreadsheet calculating Talon's burst at level 9, 11 and 13, considering ~3k gold invested in damage (BF+3 dblades as one's unlikely to rush a naked BT, LW+2 dblades, and bruta+2 blades+pickaxe), AD or ArPen marks (no quints but it allows for it) and an opponent (I used Cass) with or without armor yellows and a chainvest. TL;DR, the BF case sucks, ArPen marks > AD marks always, and LW > bruta as soon as chainvest gets added to the equation, regardless of the other variables (level, Talon's and opponent's runes). I just used it to calculate with a BT. It always wins, except when chainvest gets in the equation where it stays nearly even with LW at level 11 and loses by less than 50 damage at level 13 (over ~900 post-mitigation). And it didn't take the %ArPen mastery into account. And it calculates stuff according to s2. It's even better in s3! BC beats raw AD for 2 cases: - When people start getting a lot of armor. I mean a lot. - When you use spells and your base damage is high enough that the %increase you get from reducing their armor beats your ratios. Turns out when you use BC in your combo as an AD caster you waste said base damage by using those spells to stack BC, so it doesn't even get its full efficiency unless you're sticky and tanky enough to reach them, throw some autos and then use your spells! Which no one does! It works better in organized comps because they waste a lot less of their damage when they have low cd poke/AoE abilities to get the stacks on several people without wasting their base damage (MF's ult is godly for this, not only because it's AoE with great range, but because it ticks every 0.25 second so it stacks blazingly fast and you can jump in when she starts casting and still get most of your combo on stacked targets). Their BCs synergizes with each other because if they have AoE abilities to use first (ie not HSS, rather Noc's Q) then by each using one, they litter your whole team with the full stacks without wasting their damage, and then they put the hurt. But when you're soloQing and somebody gets fed on the enemy team and buys a BC, just be fucking happy that he didn't rush BT instead because he'd do even more damage to you and have big sustain for terrible terrible clean-ups. It's not because everyone does it and it used to be OP that it's good. What made BC good was the stacking of it so they don't waste damage, and everybody had one on the team anyway. A single BC is less damage than a single BT, and possibly than a lone LW (for the cost anyway, it is) on the full combo of an AD caster. /end of rant BC is the best because it builds of of brutalizer.. The end. | ||
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