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United States47024 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:29 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:24 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:03 Ketara wrote:
That's why I want to get it on Lux though, because if Lux isn't building AP as support she becomes really worthless late game. Everything but her snare requires AP to be of any consequence.
The only other option is Philo which has no good build paths. Shurelya doesn't make much sense anymore and Eleisa's Miracle is just bad. You're overstating how much of an effect Kage's has on Lux's lategame. 25 AP translates into 15-18 more damage/shield value per spell. You don't span the difference between "good" and "worthless" over 25 AP. Obviously, but when you grab the Lucky Pick you're gonna build it into 50ish AP worth of other items. Philo doesn't have any build paths that give you any AP.
And why are you ruling out the possibility of building plain AP items that don't build from gp10?
There's much less need for gp10 overall S3, and more affordable non-gp10 AP options as well.
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What would you suggest then?
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watching abit right now cause I don't have anything to do after christmas dinner.
Not sure if it's a result of him smurfing 1500 elo and stomping noobs but PL's mechanics are really bad tbh, always misses at least 2 creeps per wave and didn't manage to land a single brand stun combo on Navi in lane ( Navi is god obv).
Also 105 cs at 20minutes is really bad for an aspiring proplayer^^)
After the rather bad start you guys seemed "down" and didn't communicate any plays at all for 2minutes and there was only silence in voicechat, but after you guys seemed to pull a comeback, communication got alot better.
Didn't know daydreamin before that one showmatch but people called him godhand or best blitz NA but he doesn't seem to do anything so far except pulllinh bluebuffs over the wall^^.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:27 Ziken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
So, I don't know what the fuck to build as support anymore. Has anybody figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out Lux support cuz' I loves the Lux, and it seems strong but I have issues with the build order. These are my thoughts plz solve problems for me:
First problem is I feel like I still need one GP10 item, but I don't like any of them.
I don't want to build Philo anymore because I'm not going to turn it into anything.
I like Kage's Lucky Pick, it has a lot of build paths, but if I get that I feel like I need to start the game with an amp tome. I don't WANT to start the game with an amp tome, I want to start the game with a flask and a faerie charm because that gives you a much stronger early laning phase.
If I start with a faerie charm I feel like I want to get an early Chalice and turn it into Mikaels Crucible, because Crucible is just such an amazing item. But if I do that between getting a Sighstone and a Chalice I completely miss the window where getting a GP10 item is cost effective.
My second problem is basically that a Ruby Sightstone is not enough wards, which means to be cost efficient I need to have the Sightstone AND a couple wards beyond that, and that takes up 2 item slots, which is just a massive pain.
I have a reasonable idea for an end game item build, something like Kage's Lucky Shadow, Crucible, Locket, Twin Shadows, Ruby Sightstone and CDR boots, selling the KLS for a Deathcap if the game went on forever and a day. But no goddamn clue how to properly get there. I find Lucky Pick pretty much worthless except situationally useful on Janna, because most other supports have really crappy AP ratio. It doesn't build into anything overwhelmingly useful either. wait what, twin shadows op ._.
Twin Shadows is simply not good in the period of time a support would want to buy it. A large portion of it's effectiveness comes as an early/midgame ganking item, making it a better buy for ganking APs than supports.
I'm also not the only person who has this opinion--Misaya made note of it in his S3 review video. :3
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On December 25 2012 07:44 jcc wrote:
Hey guys so i know there is alot of support for FXO on this forum (with no surprise, Navi hails from here and i personally am rooting alot for their team too), but in those games with them (PL vs FXO) think you could note on some of the things our team coulda done better? Strengths / weaknesses? Cuz I told the guys that TL was watching the games, and that yall are famous for good analysis, so that third party perspective would help I think.
Also we plan to do ranked 5s most of today as well fielding a new jungler.
my first piece of advice is to kick the member of the team that sounds like a muppet. he has a condescending-yet-still-cartoon-like tone at all times, it was incredibly discouraging to listen to
phantomlord's map awareness isn't incredible either, and he seems to have a pretty weak understanding of how brand works. and his CSing is bad.
when you lose your tower in a 1v2 situation, you should probably take theirs sooner or switch lanes, darius got fucked imo.
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Here's another discussion point to throw out.
I'm playing around with using 1 CDR/level glyph on my mid rune pages. What do you guys think of that?
It is replacing AP/level on most of my pages, and the way I see it at lvl18 .96% CDR is better than another 3 (4 with deathcap) AP.
With the 1 glyph, 1 CDR item, masteries and blue buff you're at 39.96%. The assumption is that you don't always have both blue buff and a blue elixir, so the 1 rune is not being wasted for most of the game.
I did several games with it but I just can't feel a difference, so it's not a big deal, but minmaxing is important obvs.
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On December 25 2012 08:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:27 Ziken wrote:On December 25 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
So, I don't know what the fuck to build as support anymore. Has anybody figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out Lux support cuz' I loves the Lux, and it seems strong but I have issues with the build order. These are my thoughts plz solve problems for me:
First problem is I feel like I still need one GP10 item, but I don't like any of them.
I don't want to build Philo anymore because I'm not going to turn it into anything.
I like Kage's Lucky Pick, it has a lot of build paths, but if I get that I feel like I need to start the game with an amp tome. I don't WANT to start the game with an amp tome, I want to start the game with a flask and a faerie charm because that gives you a much stronger early laning phase.
If I start with a faerie charm I feel like I want to get an early Chalice and turn it into Mikaels Crucible, because Crucible is just such an amazing item. But if I do that between getting a Sighstone and a Chalice I completely miss the window where getting a GP10 item is cost effective.
My second problem is basically that a Ruby Sightstone is not enough wards, which means to be cost efficient I need to have the Sightstone AND a couple wards beyond that, and that takes up 2 item slots, which is just a massive pain.
I have a reasonable idea for an end game item build, something like Kage's Lucky Shadow, Crucible, Locket, Twin Shadows, Ruby Sightstone and CDR boots, selling the KLS for a Deathcap if the game went on forever and a day. But no goddamn clue how to properly get there. I find Lucky Pick pretty much worthless except situationally useful on Janna, because most other supports have really crappy AP ratio. It doesn't build into anything overwhelmingly useful either. wait what, twin shadows op ._. Twin Shadows is simply not good in the period of time a support would want to buy it. A large portion of it's effectiveness comes as an early/midgame ganking item, making it a better buy for ganking APs than supports. I'm also not the only person who has this opinion--Misaya made note of it in his S3 review video. :3
This.
Functionally Twin Shadows' active is really not *that* much different from Shurelya's Reverie, but the stats it provides are far more useful on an AP mid than on a support (due to AP and MR).
I think it's a really good item, but it has the old haunting guise feel to it - it's a strong early item but it's also a dead-end item.
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On December 25 2012 08:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:27 Ziken wrote:On December 25 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
So, I don't know what the fuck to build as support anymore. Has anybody figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out Lux support cuz' I loves the Lux, and it seems strong but I have issues with the build order. These are my thoughts plz solve problems for me:
First problem is I feel like I still need one GP10 item, but I don't like any of them.
I don't want to build Philo anymore because I'm not going to turn it into anything.
I like Kage's Lucky Pick, it has a lot of build paths, but if I get that I feel like I need to start the game with an amp tome. I don't WANT to start the game with an amp tome, I want to start the game with a flask and a faerie charm because that gives you a much stronger early laning phase.
If I start with a faerie charm I feel like I want to get an early Chalice and turn it into Mikaels Crucible, because Crucible is just such an amazing item. But if I do that between getting a Sighstone and a Chalice I completely miss the window where getting a GP10 item is cost effective.
My second problem is basically that a Ruby Sightstone is not enough wards, which means to be cost efficient I need to have the Sightstone AND a couple wards beyond that, and that takes up 2 item slots, which is just a massive pain.
I have a reasonable idea for an end game item build, something like Kage's Lucky Shadow, Crucible, Locket, Twin Shadows, Ruby Sightstone and CDR boots, selling the KLS for a Deathcap if the game went on forever and a day. But no goddamn clue how to properly get there. I find Lucky Pick pretty much worthless except situationally useful on Janna, because most other supports have really crappy AP ratio. It doesn't build into anything overwhelmingly useful either. wait what, twin shadows op ._. Twin Shadows is simply not good in the period of time a support would want to buy it. A large portion of it's effectiveness comes as an early/midgame ganking item, making it a better buy for ganking APs than supports. I'm also not the only person who has this opinion--Misaya made note of it in his S3 review video. :3
Quite honestly i see where you are coming from since whenever i support in lanes that are even, im almost never able to get twin shadows. Shard of ice is okay, though imo underwhelming.
In retrospect, the point i'm trying to make is that while kages pick may not be ideal in all situations, its far from useless. twin shadows i particularly good for snowballing a lane, but that is situational i guess.
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United States47024 Posts
The issue with Twin Shadows is that it has a fixed MS and duration. The ghosts lose a lot of effectiveness past the point where they don't actually catch up to someone.
They have ~450 MS. Against 350-370 MS champs (normal early/midgame gank situations), they are useful as an auxiliary slow/sight-granting tool in ganks. Past the point where most champs have 415+ MS due to further MS items/team MS buffs, they basically don't have chasing effectiveness aside from scouting someone's direction because they don't reliably hit someone that moves that fast in 6 seconds. Shurelya's is far better as a chasing item in those later situations.
On December 25 2012 08:44 Ziken wrote:
In retrospect, the point i'm trying to make is that while kages pick may not be ideal in all situations, its far from useless. twin shadows i particularly good for snowballing a lane, but that is situational i guess.
People need to get out of their head that items in the 2k gold range are good for supports in lane. If you reliably get items with that kind of price tag when you're still in lane, you either got kills and are already winning regardless of item choice (and should itemize for effectiveness in the next phase of the game), or you're skimping heavily on Boots/Consumables/Wards, which you shouldn't be.
Something "good for snowballing a lane" is like Ninja Tabi--in the 500-1k gold range which is reliably affordable during laning phase, not counting the cost of Boots because those are a guaranteed buy already anyway.
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On December 25 2012 08:45 TheYango wrote:The issue with Twin Shadows is that it has a fixed MS and duration. The ghosts lose a lot of effectiveness past the point where they don't actually catch up to someone. They have ~450 MS. Against 350-370 MS champs (normal early/midgame gank situations), they are useful as an auxiliary slow/sight-granting tool in ganks. Past the point where most champs have 415+ MS due to further MS items/team MS buffs, they basically don't have chasing effectiveness aside from scouting someone's direction because they don't reliably hit someone that moves that fast in 6 seconds. Shurelya's is far better as a chasing item in those later situations. Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:44 Ziken wrote:
In retrospect, the point i'm trying to make is that while kages pick may not be ideal in all situations, its far from useless. twin shadows i particularly good for snowballing a lane, but that is situational i guess. People need to get out of their head that items in the 2k gold range are good for supports in lane. If you reliably get items with that kind of price tag when you're still in lane, you either got kills and are already winning regardless of item choice (and should itemize for effectiveness in the next phase of the game), or you're skimping heavily on Boots/Consumables/Wards, which you shouldn't be. Something "good for snowballing a lane" is like Ninja Tabi--in the 500-1k gold range which is reliably affordable during laning phase, not counting the cost of Boots because those are a guaranteed buy already anyway.
I actually think the best support items for snowballing the lane are Doran Shield and Mana Manipulator.
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indeed christmas time, chaox 35k viewers, damn son.
no other popular streamer on though and only good alternatives are pobelter, SoAZ and Bischu
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On December 25 2012 08:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:29 Ketara wrote:On December 25 2012 08:24 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:03 Ketara wrote:
That's why I want to get it on Lux though, because if Lux isn't building AP as support she becomes really worthless late game. Everything but her snare requires AP to be of any consequence.
The only other option is Philo which has no good build paths. Shurelya doesn't make much sense anymore and Eleisa's Miracle is just bad. You're overstating how much of an effect Kage's has on Lux's lategame. 25 AP translates into 15-18 more damage/shield value per spell. You don't span the difference between "good" and "worthless" over 25 AP. Obviously, but when you grab the Lucky Pick you're gonna build it into 50ish AP worth of other items. Philo doesn't have any build paths that give you any AP. And why are you ruling out the possibility of building plain AP items that don't build from gp10? There's much less need for gp10 overall S3, and more affordable non-gp10 AP options as well.
Doesn't stop me from going full retard and getting all the gp10 items as support!
On December 25 2012 08:41 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:35 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:27 Ziken wrote:On December 25 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
So, I don't know what the fuck to build as support anymore. Has anybody figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out Lux support cuz' I loves the Lux, and it seems strong but I have issues with the build order. These are my thoughts plz solve problems for me:
First problem is I feel like I still need one GP10 item, but I don't like any of them.
I don't want to build Philo anymore because I'm not going to turn it into anything.
I like Kage's Lucky Pick, it has a lot of build paths, but if I get that I feel like I need to start the game with an amp tome. I don't WANT to start the game with an amp tome, I want to start the game with a flask and a faerie charm because that gives you a much stronger early laning phase.
If I start with a faerie charm I feel like I want to get an early Chalice and turn it into Mikaels Crucible, because Crucible is just such an amazing item. But if I do that between getting a Sighstone and a Chalice I completely miss the window where getting a GP10 item is cost effective.
My second problem is basically that a Ruby Sightstone is not enough wards, which means to be cost efficient I need to have the Sightstone AND a couple wards beyond that, and that takes up 2 item slots, which is just a massive pain.
I have a reasonable idea for an end game item build, something like Kage's Lucky Shadow, Crucible, Locket, Twin Shadows, Ruby Sightstone and CDR boots, selling the KLS for a Deathcap if the game went on forever and a day. But no goddamn clue how to properly get there. I find Lucky Pick pretty much worthless except situationally useful on Janna, because most other supports have really crappy AP ratio. It doesn't build into anything overwhelmingly useful either. wait what, twin shadows op ._. Twin Shadows is simply not good in the period of time a support would want to buy it. A large portion of it's effectiveness comes as an early/midgame ganking item, making it a better buy for ganking APs than supports. I'm also not the only person who has this opinion--Misaya made note of it in his S3 review video. :3 This. Functionally Twin Shadows' active is really not *that* much different from Shurelya's Reverie, but the stats it provides are far more useful on an AP mid than on a support (due to AP and MR). I think it's a really good item, but it has the old haunting guise feel to it - it's a strong early item but it's also a dead-end item.
It's only good on support ap-mids, but that meta was nerfed long ago, with soraka and lulu nerfs; back when dig ran triple support + kog.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 25 2012 09:14 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:32 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:29 Ketara wrote:On December 25 2012 08:24 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:03 Ketara wrote:
That's why I want to get it on Lux though, because if Lux isn't building AP as support she becomes really worthless late game. Everything but her snare requires AP to be of any consequence.
The only other option is Philo which has no good build paths. Shurelya doesn't make much sense anymore and Eleisa's Miracle is just bad. You're overstating how much of an effect Kage's has on Lux's lategame. 25 AP translates into 15-18 more damage/shield value per spell. You don't span the difference between "good" and "worthless" over 25 AP. Obviously, but when you grab the Lucky Pick you're gonna build it into 50ish AP worth of other items. Philo doesn't have any build paths that give you any AP. And why are you ruling out the possibility of building plain AP items that don't build from gp10? There's much less need for gp10 overall S3, and more affordable non-gp10 AP options as well. Doesn't stop me from going full retard and getting all the gp10 items as support! Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:41 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 08:35 TheYango wrote:On December 25 2012 08:27 Ziken wrote:On December 25 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 25 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
So, I don't know what the fuck to build as support anymore. Has anybody figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out Lux support cuz' I loves the Lux, and it seems strong but I have issues with the build order. These are my thoughts plz solve problems for me:
First problem is I feel like I still need one GP10 item, but I don't like any of them.
I don't want to build Philo anymore because I'm not going to turn it into anything.
I like Kage's Lucky Pick, it has a lot of build paths, but if I get that I feel like I need to start the game with an amp tome. I don't WANT to start the game with an amp tome, I want to start the game with a flask and a faerie charm because that gives you a much stronger early laning phase.
If I start with a faerie charm I feel like I want to get an early Chalice and turn it into Mikaels Crucible, because Crucible is just such an amazing item. But if I do that between getting a Sighstone and a Chalice I completely miss the window where getting a GP10 item is cost effective.
My second problem is basically that a Ruby Sightstone is not enough wards, which means to be cost efficient I need to have the Sightstone AND a couple wards beyond that, and that takes up 2 item slots, which is just a massive pain.
I have a reasonable idea for an end game item build, something like Kage's Lucky Shadow, Crucible, Locket, Twin Shadows, Ruby Sightstone and CDR boots, selling the KLS for a Deathcap if the game went on forever and a day. But no goddamn clue how to properly get there. I find Lucky Pick pretty much worthless except situationally useful on Janna, because most other supports have really crappy AP ratio. It doesn't build into anything overwhelmingly useful either. wait what, twin shadows op ._. Twin Shadows is simply not good in the period of time a support would want to buy it. A large portion of it's effectiveness comes as an early/midgame ganking item, making it a better buy for ganking APs than supports. I'm also not the only person who has this opinion--Misaya made note of it in his S3 review video. :3 This. Functionally Twin Shadows' active is really not *that* much different from Shurelya's Reverie, but the stats it provides are far more useful on an AP mid than on a support (due to AP and MR). I think it's a really good item, but it has the old haunting guise feel to it - it's a strong early item but it's also a dead-end item. It's only good on support ap-mids, but that meta was nerfed long ago, with soraka and lulu nerfs; back when dig ran triple support + kog.
I don't think it's a bad pick-up on most roaming mids, you're just sacrificing damage for utility. Probably not the best if you're trying to carry a soloq game, but in coordinated play it certainly has its uses.
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i like shard of ice if you have someone who goes ham. it's fun when amumu bandages in and you shard him. no one's going anywhere.
it's also kind of okay on support if you have a mana-intensive AD. it's sure fun with sivir.
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On December 25 2012 08:33 Ketara wrote:
What would you suggest then?
Morellos is nice for 20%you CDR
Later after like shurelya/crucible you can just get dcap on support Lux if the game goes that long
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^use shard on your AD carry and its like a free lulu ult in terms of peels
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Scarra once said that he would be the greatest ADC player if he could always proc phage on first hit.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously he was being sarcastic, but still....
But today I realized that I would be the greatest Mordekaiser player if I could always proc phage on first hit from my ghost. Phage proc please.
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On December 25 2012 07:44 jcc wrote:
Hey guys so i know there is alot of support for FXO on this forum (with no surprise, Navi hails from here and i personally am rooting alot for their team too), but in those games with them (PL vs FXO) think you could note on some of the things our team coulda done better? Strengths / weaknesses? Cuz I told the guys that TL was watching the games, and that yall are famous for good analysis, so that third party perspective would help I think.
Also we plan to do ranked 5s most of today as well fielding a new jungler.
well im only a low elo scrub so don't take my word as being 100% right but i felt bad for your jungler getting "kicked" because he kinda wasnt to blame for the losses, there again you guys played much better with the new jungler and he seemed to call alot more shots and prolly did better leading you guys than even your main shot caller PL did. Also PL was critizing navi for just playing safe and farming but maybe he needs to see that teamplay requires different playstyles than soloq. I think your ggod right? i think 1 game you played ashe you got caught bot 2 times which was big turning points i feel and alot of the chat seemed to call that out.
biggest thing i think was communication and having a better jungler helped but mostly because he made better calls.
everyone feel free to tell me im wrong 
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Ya, 1st time i got caught was cuz i thought my jungler was nearby to help with kog, but he was going left, i didnt communicate my thought lol. Second time was them having 2 shurelyas, which legit caught me off guard and was bad of me. Well that was 2 games, but the issue with the jungling has just been 0 lane pressures almost ever. The enemy lanes always have map dominance. But ya alot more practice to be needed.
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EPT
