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On December 05 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:10 thenexusp wrote:
It's not 100% better if you can't afford the sightstone in the first place
So you're saying that when you have 6 items, you never back with 700 gold but always back with enough for a full item? Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 05 2012 02:11 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental difference between Sightstone and a gp10 item is that gp10 items are slot-inefficient, while Sightstone is slot-efficient because it's taking up a slot that would otherwise hold wards---and still giving you wards.
This means that you can take advantage of Sightstone at the point where you're banking money and can't fill any more slots in a way you can't with gp10 because gp10 items' slot-inefficiency is a liability at that point. It's cost-inefficiency isn't a downside, because it's slot-efficiency allows you to make use of it a time where the fact that it's a gold deficit isn't relevant. well, presuming you don't need more than two wards out on the map at a time, yeah. Well I mean, it's pretty rare that the AP or AD would have 2+ wards on the map that belong to them. Obviously the support will still buy wards, but that will supplement Sightstone.
Do these numbers transfer reasonably well over to the Ruby Sightstone too, given roughly the same conditions but assuming you have a ruby crystal dicking around?
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I did some math to figure out how significant the difference between the old and the new creeps is in terms of gold. The easiest way to calculate is to neglect the slight scaling in gold value and to calculate the difference for three waves always in order to account for the large change of the siege creep:
Old: (3*20+3*16)*3+27=369
New: ((3*20+3*15)*3+40=355
Old-New=14
Until the 19:30 minute mark 36 waves of creeps will have spawned.
36/3=12 -> 12*14 = 168
So the difference by the 20 minutes mark will be 168 Gold. Including the increase in money due to the scaling change on the siege creeps this can be slightly adjusted. Every sixth wave the siege creep is worth 0.5 Gold more.
36/6 = 6 -> 6-1= -> 168-(5*0.5) ~ 165
The adjustment is very small as can be seen by this calculation and scales linearly, so at 40 the minute mark the difference ~330 gold and ~495 gold at the 60 minute mark.
TL;DR: The difference between the new and the old lane is 165 gold less in the new lane at the 20 minute mark. The impact is therefor minimal.
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United States23745 Posts
Plus the Ruby Sightstone allows you to put three wards out at a time. If it becomes too much of an issue an easy solution would be to make the ward limit per sightstone apply to the team as a whole instead of on a per item basis.
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On December 05 2012 02:49 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:On December 05 2012 02:10 thenexusp wrote:
It's not 100% better if you can't afford the sightstone in the first place
So you're saying that when you have 6 items, you never back with 700 gold but always back with enough for a full item? On December 05 2012 02:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 05 2012 02:11 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental difference between Sightstone and a gp10 item is that gp10 items are slot-inefficient, while Sightstone is slot-efficient because it's taking up a slot that would otherwise hold wards---and still giving you wards.
This means that you can take advantage of Sightstone at the point where you're banking money and can't fill any more slots in a way you can't with gp10 because gp10 items' slot-inefficiency is a liability at that point. It's cost-inefficiency isn't a downside, because it's slot-efficiency allows you to make use of it a time where the fact that it's a gold deficit isn't relevant. well, presuming you don't need more than two wards out on the map at a time, yeah. Well I mean, it's pretty rare that the AP or AD would have 2+ wards on the map that belong to them. Obviously the support will still buy wards, but that will supplement Sightstone. Do these numbers transfer reasonably well over to the Ruby Sightstone too, given roughly the same conditions but assuming you have a ruby crystal dicking around?
Or assuming you're using that slot for Sightstone later into the game anyway, so might as well get more health in that slot as long as you have it.
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On December 05 2012 01:53 Irave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 01:46 Sandster wrote:On December 05 2012 01:44 adriftt wrote:
I really don;t understand what they are thinking with the ward/oracle changes. Sighstone is a ridiculous item that can be bought on everything except AD carry. With the oracle nerf.. theres going to be 1000 wards everywhere in competitive games and its even harder to go oracle when behind because its temporary now.
They should have made Oracle transfer to whoever kills you but still be permanent. So if one team is ahead you can comeback by killing their oracle and getting a free one. If anything they needed to nerf oracles and make wards more expensive. They did, I imagine the use of pink wards during lane phase will skyrocket. As well I think people are overreacting at the thought that everyone but the adc will have a sightstone.
Maybe not in solo queue. And definitely not at lower ratings. But in competitive play?
Think about it like this. If you buy 10 wards in the course of a game that is 750 gold. Its very rare for a jungler/support/solo laner to not buy at least 10 wards in a tournament setting. Sightstone gives you nearly infinite wards + 100 HP for 700g.
Think about mid lane before. 2x Doran was not uncommon. That is 950g for 160 HP, 30 AP, and mana 6 mana regen. On top of that its common for mid lane at high levels to buy 2 wards basically every time they back. Now I can have 1x Doran + Sightstone for 1175. That gives me 180 HP, 15 AP, 3 mana regen + new passive and nearly infinite wards. The 275 G cost difference is offset and then some by spending 0 gold on wards. Not to mention you can sell the item back for 490 so its pays for itself after only using 3 wards.
Then I just keep it until I'm ready to buy my sixth item and sell it. No need to upgrade it or anything.
And I really think making Oracle permanent again but transferable on death is the perfect solution. They didn't like how snowbally it was for a jungler to buy an early oracle. Now, if you are ahead and buy an oracle you run the risk of potentially giving it to the other team which will help them come back. On the flip side, if you are behind you don't have to take the hgue risk of spending 400g of an oracle to try and come back. You can try to make a play on their jungler if/when they buy it and spend your 400g on the items that you need.
As it is now, how will you ever come back in a competitive game? Spending 400g on a 5 minute oracle is a huge risk when already behind. There will be wards EVERYWHERE with this sightstone. The only person that can really justify spending 400g is the jungler that is already ahead in an attempt to snowball even further.
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wow, utility is so strong now
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United States47024 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:49 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:On December 05 2012 02:10 thenexusp wrote:
It's not 100% better if you can't afford the sightstone in the first place
So you're saying that when you have 6 items, you never back with 700 gold but always back with enough for a full item? On December 05 2012 02:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 05 2012 02:11 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental difference between Sightstone and a gp10 item is that gp10 items are slot-inefficient, while Sightstone is slot-efficient because it's taking up a slot that would otherwise hold wards---and still giving you wards.
This means that you can take advantage of Sightstone at the point where you're banking money and can't fill any more slots in a way you can't with gp10 because gp10 items' slot-inefficiency is a liability at that point. It's cost-inefficiency isn't a downside, because it's slot-efficiency allows you to make use of it a time where the fact that it's a gold deficit isn't relevant. well, presuming you don't need more than two wards out on the map at a time, yeah. Well I mean, it's pretty rare that the AP or AD would have 2+ wards on the map that belong to them. Obviously the support will still buy wards, but that will supplement Sightstone. Do these numbers transfer reasonably well over to the Ruby Sightstone too, given roughly the same conditions but assuming you have a ruby crystal dicking around?
The problem is that Ruby Sightstone invests more gold so the sell-cost difference is bigger.
Sightstone is 700 and sells for 490, so you've made a surplus after you've placed 3 wards. Ruby Sightstone is 1300 and sells for 910, which is a surplus after 6 wards.
Basically Sightstone anyone can buy with the intent of selling it later. Ruby Sightstone somewhat commits you to actually keeping it for a while.
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On December 05 2012 02:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:49 sylverfyre wrote:On December 05 2012 02:39 TheYango wrote:On December 05 2012 02:10 thenexusp wrote:
It's not 100% better if you can't afford the sightstone in the first place
So you're saying that when you have 6 items, you never back with 700 gold but always back with enough for a full item? On December 05 2012 02:29 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 05 2012 02:11 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental difference between Sightstone and a gp10 item is that gp10 items are slot-inefficient, while Sightstone is slot-efficient because it's taking up a slot that would otherwise hold wards---and still giving you wards.
This means that you can take advantage of Sightstone at the point where you're banking money and can't fill any more slots in a way you can't with gp10 because gp10 items' slot-inefficiency is a liability at that point. It's cost-inefficiency isn't a downside, because it's slot-efficiency allows you to make use of it a time where the fact that it's a gold deficit isn't relevant. well, presuming you don't need more than two wards out on the map at a time, yeah. Well I mean, it's pretty rare that the AP or AD would have 2+ wards on the map that belong to them. Obviously the support will still buy wards, but that will supplement Sightstone. Do these numbers transfer reasonably well over to the Ruby Sightstone too, given roughly the same conditions but assuming you have a ruby crystal dicking around? The problem is that Ruby Sightstone invests more gold so the sell-cost difference is bigger. Sightstone is 700 and sells for 490, so you've made a surplus after you've placed 3 wards. Ruby Sightstone is 1300 and sells for 910, which is a surplus after 6 wards. Basically Sightstone anyone can buy with the intent of selling it later. Ruby Sightstone somewhat commits you to actually keeping it for a while.
6 isn't that much, since you can have 3 out on the map at the same time with Ruby and 5 in the total charge. So that's basically almost a surplus after using them all, and definitely a surplus after a single back with it in your inventory.
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From the spotlight video it seems you can deny someone from getting gold from killing a sightstone-placed ward by placing a 3rd ward from the sightstone which immediately removes the first you placed >:D
Do the sightstone wards have exactly the same properties as normal wards? vision range and hp basically.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:00 thenexusp wrote:
From the spotlight video it seems you can deny someone from getting gold from killing a sightstone-placed ward by placing a 3rd ward from the sightstone which immediately removes the first you placed >:D
Do the sightstone wards have exactly the same properties as normal wards? vision range and hp basically.
Now that is interesting, I just assumed it wouldn't let you place any more wards unless your other wards ran out or were killed.
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On December 05 2012 03:00 thenexusp wrote:
From the spotlight video it seems you can deny someone from getting gold from killing a sightstone-placed ward by placing a 3rd ward from the sightstone which immediately removes the first you placed >:D
Do the sightstone wards have exactly the same properties as normal wards? vision range and hp basically.
Yes, they are the same in every way as far as I can tell. When you place a ward over the limit, the first one you placed will despawn.
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Do the sightstone wards have exactly the same properties as normal wards? vision range and hp basically.
Yes, they are regular wards for all intents and purposes.
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Wow I am really excited about this patch. Just in time before winter break. Can't wait to play during the next couple weeks after finals
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So why more gold for doing nothing and less for farming?
Sure it allows supports to get more gold, but also rewards better players less for out farming their opponent.
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Another thing about Sightstone:
They remove HoG because HP is too desirable of a stat to go with Gp10. But Sightstone is essentially a super HoG because of the gold you save from buying wards. If you buy 1 ward every 5 minutes thats 75g per 300 seconds or roughly 2.5 GP10 which is even more than Heart of Gold gave with its 2 Gp10. And thats a pretty conservative calculation since you are getting 4 wards per recall which is a lot more than 1 ward every 5 minutes.
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On December 05 2012 03:04 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote + Do the sightstone wards have exactly the same properties as normal wards? vision range and hp basically. Yes, they are regular wards for all intents and purposes.
I'm glad you caught your mistake  Must have taken some intensive study
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On December 05 2012 01:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 01:45 Seuss wrote:
To be fair, all the other AS items were pretty horrible. PD was competing against old SotD and Bloodrazor. Perhaps it wasn't obvious initially, but in retrospect it should have been fairly obvious that the item which multiplied the effectiveness of IE and boosted movespeed would win out.
This time around it's a little different, as each of the AS items has a key strength which is actually relevant. The old items had "strengths" that were either extremely limited in scope or weren't all that strong. It was also competing with old Stark's and post-buff Wit's End. Neither of those were remotely bad.
Actually, Wit's End wasn't reworked until patch 118, whereas the Last Whisper change occurred in patch 107, roughly a six month gap. By the time Wit's End was reworked PD had long since cemented itself as the follow up to IE.
Stark's wasn't bad, but its strength was clearly team-wide rather than personal. If you had a bruiser on your team who could make use of the stats it made more sense for them to buy it and let the AD carry (an inherently selfish role) mooch and rush PD. Otherwise there wasn't much reason to buy it (unless your support was rich). As such, it never really caught on as an AD carry item (except insofar as it was in the recommended items for some of them).
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Don't really like what they did with attack speed, makes nunu even more of a god tier support when hes already annoying as shit and makes ad carries like ashe/cait/vayne etc who dont have a steroid even more reliant on him. You literally cannot play these champs anymore without nunu. Anyone else thinks that is pretty dumb?
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So people can place a ward when they see the first ward being destroyed? Means it can be possible to reduce the enemy teams oracle gold income if played correctly.
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On December 05 2012 03:09 Mementoss wrote:
So why more gold for doing nothing and less for farming?
Sure it allows supports to get more gold, but also rewards better players less for out farming their opponent.
Yes, but it also lowers the opportunity cost of doing other non-farming related things, like ganking/roaming or supporting. Hopefully this opens up more active opportunities for better players to leverage.
I'm glad you caught your mistake Must have taken some intensive study
tyty.
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EPT
