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On December 12 2012 04:00 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:46 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 sylverfyre wrote:On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Muramana is based on Mana, not on AP. You'd probably add in things like Rod of Ages to this build. Muramana alone adds like 100 damage per orb to the Syndra ult, at 2k mana. The ult will hurt. The thing is, nothing else in this build does shit to synergize with the Muramana syndra build, whereas the one proposed on RoG actually makes sense. Why, again, are you putting ARMOR PENETRATION in this build, again? And why are you criticizing the wrong part of the build, sob3k? I never said anything about AP scaling on muramana... There is literally nothing about his build that is not criticizeable other than the muramana, it makes zero sense. You said "With no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks". That statement implies that if you had AP there might be a difference. In any case your comparison of 6 muramana procs to a trist going full AS + muramana is ridiculous. You're comparing Syndra's effectiveness with ONE 2100 gold item to a Trist's effectiveness with a 10500 GOLD BUILD. What, do you think Trist spawns with 2.5 attacks per second or something? Is there no such thing as burst damage in your universe? I mean I'm on the side of manamune Syndra being cheesy and all-in, it doesn't make remotely the same kind of sense it does on Ryze, Ezreal, or Urgot. But this argument is giving me a bloody headache.
I was comparing the value of ulting vs autoing. I should have clarified the 6 procs were from ult.
Your amount of AP vs AD does have an effect in the value of ulting/casting vs autoing.
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On December 12 2012 04:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:07 phyvo wrote:
Then criticize the rest of his build, not muramana, and people will stop assuming your beef is with muramana.
The Muramana's still bad because you're weakening your midgame level 9/13 timings by ~1k gold in order to have a Tear, while gaining the possibility for the endgame ult gimmick--when if you're playing your level 9/13 timings properly, the game should be more or less won or lost for you at that point regardless because of Syndra's relative strength at those levels and weakness later.
I'm not here to say that muramana on her is good. You probably missed my earlier edit (things move fast), but I said that muramana Syndra doesn't make remotely the same kind of sense as muramana Ryze, Ez, or Urgot (though you could make arguments about timings or build synergies for the latter two). I mainly wanted to reach some sort of conclusion with sob3k so that we could move on to the actual (de)merits of muramana Syndra.
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The point is we're not maxing Q for damage. The damage is coming mostly from right clicks at all stages of the game, this is why black cleaver and nashor's tooth are there. This is why the runes are set to give you true damage on auto attacks vs low armour targets. We're are still going to get the utility of the passive on e and w at 9 and 13, while maxing cdr to get these crowd controls off 2 times in fights.
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Do you know what would be a funny nerf-that's-a-buff for ww? Make toggling his E cost 10 mana.
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So... I created an account on the NA forums to be able to post there, but it says I can't login because it doesn't recognize the username. Do I need to first log into the client and pick a summoner name before I can log into the forums?
My ISP decided to shit on me and give me a 50 kbps download speed so switching to NA even temporarily is going to take so long...
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I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but if one person on your team has aegis and another person has the aegis upgrade, the two auras stack. They both have the same aura name though, so it shouldn't be stacking I think?
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On December 12 2012 04:23 Alaric wrote:
So... I created an account on the NA forums to be able to post there, but it says I can't login because it doesn't recognize the username. Do I need to first log into the client and pick a summoner name before I can log into the forums?
My ISP decided to shit on me and give me a 50 kbps download speed so switching to NA even temporarily is going to take so long...
I think you need to pick a summoner name, and level up past 10 to be able to post on the main forum too.
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On December 12 2012 04:22 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:14 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2012 04:07 phyvo wrote:
Then criticize the rest of his build, not muramana, and people will stop assuming your beef is with muramana.
The Muramana's still bad because you're weakening your midgame level 9/13 timings by ~1k gold in order to have a Tear, while gaining the possibility for the endgame ult gimmick--when if you're playing your level 9/13 timings properly, the game should be more or less won or lost for you at that point regardless because of Syndra's relative strength at those levels and weakness later. I'm not here to say that muramana on her is good. You probably missed my earlier edit (things move fast), but I said that muramana Syndra doesn't make remotely the same kind of sense as muramana Ryze, Ez, or Urgot (though you could make arguments about timings or build synergies for the latter two). I mainly wanted to reach some sort of conclusion with sob3k so that we could move on to the actual (de)merits of muramana Syndra.
I think muramana Syndra could be pretty good. Yango is correct in that it does fuck up her midgame peak, but you are getting truly absurd efficiancy and max damage as a tradeoff. Not to mention syndra is one of the fastest tear chargers, and does need a mana item. Her laning is very safe and strong, so even though you are emphasizing a timing that she wouldn't naturally fit into, Muramana is actually broken enough to basically make her a whole new timing by itself and not fuck her early much at all.
Note that they are saying it procs on Q as well, which is pretty key.
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On December 12 2012 04:22 Sabin010 wrote:
The point is we're not maxing Q for damage. The damage is coming mostly from right clicks at all stages of the game, this is why black cleaver and nashor's tooth are there. This is why the runes are set to give you true damage on auto attacks vs low armour targets. We're are still going to get the utility of the passive on e and w at 9 and 13, while maxing cdr to get these crowd controls off 2 times in fights.
If most of your damage is coming from right clicks the why even use syndra? There are tons of champs with better peel and mobility, range, there are even champs with AD scaling! Her ult is cool but its not that amazing, Jace gets 3 autos at 2.5 AS like every 5 seconds, and I'd trade syndras ult for a ton of other ones with better aoe and utility, the setup time is a bitch anyway without having to worry about trying to auto them at the same time.
Other than BC/Nashors/Muramana what would you build? If its more AD then a champ with an AS steroid will actually do more damage lategame than her ult at longer range and on lower CD safer. If its more AP then you end up competing spellcasts with autos, like why you dont go old manamune on Ryze. She is crazy spammy and you sill lose like half of your autos. Doing hybrid damage also means you have to split your pen, which means alot less damage of each actually goes through.
There is a reason people dont just like slap BF swords on ziggs.
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For it proccing on Q I've heard contradicting information so I'm skeptical. That would give her AoE muramana damage on a tiny CD which would be completely ridiculous.
On December 12 2012 04:25 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:23 Alaric wrote:
So... I created an account on the NA forums to be able to post there, but it says I can't login because it doesn't recognize the username. Do I need to first log into the client and pick a summoner name before I can log into the forums?
My ISP decided to shit on me and give me a 50 kbps download speed so switching to NA even temporarily is going to take so long... I think you need to pick a summoner name, and level up past 10 to be able to post on the main forum too.
If you have to get past level 10 to post that's something entirely new, I don't remember ever having to do that even on my smurfs.
On December 12 2012 04:25 koreasilver wrote:
I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but if one person on your team has aegis and another person has the aegis upgrade, the two auras stack. They both have the same aura name though, so it shouldn't be stacking I think?
There was a bug with this that made them fully stack, yeah, IDK if they fixed it or when they plan to fix it. I supposed you were checking the buffs on someone who wasn't carrying either item, right?
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BTW AP Ezreal is pretty awesome in season 3. Lichebane change to magical really, really helps him.
But as it stands right now I would not play him mid unless Pantheon, Talon, Khazix, Xin are banned.
Against typical AP mids he does fine though.
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On December 12 2012 04:22 Sabin010 wrote:
The point is we're not maxing Q for damage. The damage is coming mostly from right clicks at all stages of the game, this is why black cleaver and nashor's tooth are there. This is why the runes are set to give you true damage on auto attacks vs low armour targets. We're are still going to get the utility of the passive on e and w at 9 and 13, while maxing cdr to get these crowd controls off 2 times in fights.
Then just play Muramana Ezreal or Ashe. (based on whether you want mobility or CC/Utility)
I've become a big fan of the build Smash discovered when trolling, but decided was awesome - Ezreal Muramana + Frozen Fist + 40% CDR. Fill with other AD items and poke/kite like a boss, while making it hard for them to engage because there are ice patches everywhere, and you have a ~5 second flash to boot.
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On December 12 2012 04:35 Chrispy wrote:
BTW AP Ezreal is pretty awesome in season 3. Lichebane change to magical really, really helps him.
But as it stands right now I would not play him mid unless Pantheon, Talon, Khazix, Xin are banned.
Against typical AP mids he does fine though.
Whats a solid AP ez build and skill order?
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On December 12 2012 04:35 Chrispy wrote:
BTW AP Ezreal is pretty awesome in season 3. Lichebane change to magical really, really helps him.
But as it stands right now I would not play him mid unless Pantheon, Talon, Khazix, Xin are banned.
Against typical AP mids he does fine though.
My problem whenever I play AP ez is that I just get shoved to turret all game. How do you prevent the other mid from just killing the wave and doing whatever he wants while you're stuck under tower? Of course you can push once you get your ult but that's on a pretty long cooldown and a big part of your damage.
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Since they are nerfing the item brutalizer is youmu's getting affected since it builds from brutalizer? its already balanced or underpowered so I hope they arent nerfing it?
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On December 12 2012 05:24 VayneAuthority wrote:
Since they are nerfing the item brutalizer is youmu's getting affected since it builds from brutalizer? its already balanced or underpowered so I hope they arent nerfing it?
youmu's is probably staying the same, no pbe notes on that
The fun part is that the arpen and cdr on youmu's isn't unique either.
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I like to run AD reds with AP quints. The AD reds helps your farming a lot and the extra damage on the auto attack never hurts + 2 of his spells scale with AD. I max Q first then W most of the time but I am not 100% that is ideal. Q does more damage for sure but it is way easier to harass them with W.
For builds I've been going something like:
1. Tear
2. Sheen
3. Deathcap
4. Lichebane
5. Void Staff
6. Turn tear into Archangels > Manamuramona thing.
Things that seem good but haven't tested:
Malady
Frozen Fist item
For masteries I've been going 30 offense. Max it out baby.
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On December 12 2012 04:39 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:22 Sabin010 wrote:
The point is we're not maxing Q for damage. The damage is coming mostly from right clicks at all stages of the game, this is why black cleaver and nashor's tooth are there. This is why the runes are set to give you true damage on auto attacks vs low armour targets. We're are still going to get the utility of the passive on e and w at 9 and 13, while maxing cdr to get these crowd controls off 2 times in fights. Then just play Muramana Ezreal or Ashe. (based on whether you want mobility or CC/Utility) I've become a big fan of the build Smash discovered when trolling, but decided was awesome - Ezreal Muramana + Frozen Fist + 40% CDR. Fill with other AD items and poke/kite like a boss, while making it hard for them to engage because there are ice patches everywhere, and you have a ~5 second flash to boot.
I sang praises about the muramana+FF combo on EZ when everything was only on the PBE and nothing about that build changed at all going onto live (aside from a very slight nerf).
Do I get to join the super hipster club? I guess it doesn't count since I don't play ranked so I'm not even bronze, technically... =(
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Does Karthus' q proc muramana if it hits a single target?
Not that I'm planning on including it in my Karthus build...
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anyone else have a really long login time? i hit play, type in password, then have to wait like 20 seconds to get into the game.
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EPT
