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On December 12 2012 03:35 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:31 rhs408 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:
On the PBE patch notes for 12/8:
Item Changes
The Black Cleaver
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
now reduces an enemy champion's armor by 6.25% per stack
The Brutalizer
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
Thanks, where did you find this? My google search was unsuccessful... PBE patch notes on Reign of Gaming. Unfortunately, Reign of Gaming puts way too many articles on its front page, so you have to dig for anything even a few days old. Addendum: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22610-unoffical-pbe-patch-notes-for-12-8-2012
Thanks.
I don't think the 6.25% down from 7.5% is enough of a nerf to stop people from stacking BC... I would have made it 5%. Or maybe do %5 and increase the maximum stacks to 5. 6.25% still too strong. Sigh.
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On December 12 2012 03:31 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:
On the PBE patch notes for 12/8:
Item Changes
The Black Cleaver
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
now reduces an enemy champion's armor by 6.25% per stack
The Brutalizer
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
Thanks, where did you find this? My google search was unsuccessful...
Surrender 20 has patch notes for the PBE.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/
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On December 12 2012 03:43 nosliw wrote:
Has anyone done any analysis on the Def mastery tree? Especially rank 4 and rank 5.
Phreak has, actually. He's pretty thorough, especially about the 4% health, 5% additional resists, and 1resist/champion masteries.
http://www.own3d.tv/RiotPhreak/video/916516
He did one on offense and Utility as well, as well as proposed a handful of pages.
On December 12 2012 03:44 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:35 sylverfyre wrote:On December 12 2012 03:31 rhs408 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:
On the PBE patch notes for 12/8:
Item Changes
The Black Cleaver
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
now reduces an enemy champion's armor by 6.25% per stack
The Brutalizer
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
Thanks, where did you find this? My google search was unsuccessful... PBE patch notes on Reign of Gaming. Unfortunately, Reign of Gaming puts way too many articles on its front page, so you have to dig for anything even a few days old. Addendum: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22610-unoffical-pbe-patch-notes-for-12-8-2012 Thanks. I don't think the 6.25% down from 7.5% is enough of a nerf to stop people from stacking BC... I would have made it 5%. Or maybe do %5 and increase the maximum stacks to 5. 6.25% still too strong. Sigh.
Agreed - We shouldn't be just worried about Cleaver by itself. Even if they make cleaver completely unstackable (unique everywhere) it's still going to be pretty ridionkulus when combo'd with Last Whisper.
This coming from a Riven main who always has enjoyed Pantheon and picking up Rengar now... it's pretty dumb. No reason to not rush cleaver even postnerf. I just won't be building 2-4 of them.
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On December 12 2012 01:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 01:12 Tula wrote:On December 12 2012 01:03 thenexusp wrote:On December 12 2012 01:02 Bladeorade wrote:
So my second game playing on this patch:
Pantheon, Talon and Wukong banned
Never thought I'd see the day Now people who just recently started playing now have their own "remember release xin" moment to talk about!, except it is "remember s3 preseason bc? panth talon wukong banned every game lOL" xin as ganking jungler with BC is also retardely strong currently. He always was a nice jungler, but on this patch with BC and phage he can gank like a boss. How would BC have remotely any effect on ganking? How are your games still in the laning phase past the point where you have a 3k gold major item?
i only have the brutaliser for major laning ganks, but before his weakness was that his teamfighting potential is not as great as many other junglers. Aside from his ult (which can make or break a teamfight) he is simply another diver. Now with BC he can actually do something while diving the AD carry lategame.
He might not be a caster in the sense of pantheon or Talon, but the Cd reduction coupled with arpen buffs him quite a lot.
Yes the finished BC is expensive, but one offensive item on a jungler is easily affordable, and it gives quit a lot of bang for it's cost, that is what i meant. I like playing "active" junglers which can enable ganks heavily, but prepatch almost all of them fell off hardcore, so you'd either win by minute 20 basically or your team had to carry you. Currently it seems as if those champions are viable again.
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On December 12 2012 03:41 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Muramana is based on Mana, not on AP. You'd probably add in things like Rod of Ages to this build. Muramana alone adds like 100 damage per orb to the Syndra ult, at 2k mana. The ult will hurt. The thing is, nothing else in this build does shit to synergize with the Muramana syndra build, whereas the one proposed on RoG actually makes sense. Why, again, are you putting ARMOR PENETRATION in this build, again? And why are you criticizing the wrong part of the build, sob3k?
I never said anything about AP scaling on muramana...
There is literally nothing about his build that is not criticizeable other than the muramana, it makes zero sense.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 12 2012 03:44 rhs408 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:35 sylverfyre wrote:On December 12 2012 03:31 rhs408 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:03 sylverfyre wrote:
On the PBE patch notes for 12/8:
Item Changes
The Black Cleaver
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
now reduces an enemy champion's armor by 6.25% per stack
The Brutalizer
Now gives +10 armor pen (down from 15)
Thanks, where did you find this? My google search was unsuccessful... PBE patch notes on Reign of Gaming. Unfortunately, Reign of Gaming puts way too many articles on its front page, so you have to dig for anything even a few days old. Addendum: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22610-unoffical-pbe-patch-notes-for-12-8-2012 Thanks. I don't think the 6.25% down from 7.5% is enough of a nerf to stop people from stacking BC... I would have made it 5%. Or maybe do %5 and increase the maximum stacks to 5. 6.25% still too strong. Sigh.
The proc is actually the least relevant part to whether stacking is worthwhile or not.
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On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage.
Let's say that Syndra only has Muramana and literally no AP. It's going to take until around the 25th minute of the game at the earliest to reach this point, so it's safe to say that Syndra is at least level 11. Thus, her maximum mana is approximately 2000.
With 6 orbs Syndra's ultimate will do 1080 raw damage and proc Muramana 6 times. Casting her ultimate drops her mana to 1900. Each orb drains 3% of her maximum mana and deals twice that in damage. We can simplify this mathematically by multiplying her mana by 0.97 a total of 6 times, leaving us with 0.833. The total mana drained is therefore 16.7% of 1900, giving us ~630 additional damage.
Syndra would need 528 AP to deal equivalent damage with her ultimate. Even if we halved Syndra's starting mana, you would still need 250 AP to match the damage of Muramana. Thus you're utterly and completely wrong that Muramana + Syndra's ultimate = no damage.
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United States47024 Posts
The biggest problem with Muramana for Syndra is that the build doesn't fit her role/playstyle at all.
She's a timing-based champ with huge power spikes at levels 9 and 13 (corresponding to triggering her passive on her first 2 maxed spells), and who generally levels off in power after that. But Muramana is an item that's absolutely worthless for Syndra until you max out the Tear, and you're not going to have a maxed out Tear at level 9/13. You get a cute all-in ult, but you completely ignore the strong points of the rest of her kit.
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On December 12 2012 03:38 sylverfyre wrote:
According to thenexusp they're doing that as well, but It's not reflected in the PBE notes, and I can't log onto the PBE server (at work) to check.
The surrender@20 notes have the unique passive change on them. I generally use those since they tend to be more reliable and you can quickly get to them without having to wade through multiple articles / hashinin's whining
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Ah. I'll start using surrender@20 in the future myself then. ROG's design infuriates me.
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On December 12 2012 01:51 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 01:23 overt wrote:
I wanna play some AP mids today since I have today off. But I haven't played S3 Patch since like first two days of release. Is it really so bad that I should just not even bother with AP champs until BC fix? This is more blown out of proportion than WoW general forums. Seriously, never seen this kind of whining in any TL thread before. I main AP mid, and I've had much success with Zyra, Oriana, Kat, and Ahri. Bruisers are ouchy now with BC, but it doesn't mean they can't be CC'd or blown the fuck up. Jungle Diana still good too. One of the best things about playing AP now is that almost all bruisers are building very damage heavy (everyone's building like Kha'zix), so CC heavy AOE AP comps can just instawin teamfights. Played a game with AP Kennan top, Zyra mid, and Jungle Fiddle and we just melted them every teamfight. That was Leona/Talon bot lane (also AoE and CC).
thing is, while I agree with you (better teamfighting/composition can turn many things around) you shouldn't necessarily NEED to outplay the enemy characters by that margin. As i said earlier, I've been playing Jungle a lot lately, some Xin, a lot of Olaf and Cho. Prepatch I seldom dared 1v1 a top laner or mid char post level 6, they had at least 1 level advantadge and in general my items did not come close to theirs. Now? As soon as my brutaliser is done (rushing it after machete start currently), and they have not bought their "mid game items" (basically if they are in lane with boots dorans, or flask dorans) I feel fairly confident against any AP char in the early to mid game. Lategame fighting the item doesn't matter that much, a proper teamfight with chained ults and positioning will easily win, but simply cost for cost BC is over budget and too effective for it's price.
Obviously you can lock down a single riven/Talon/pantheon with chain CC if they are the only enemy char in the entire game that does damage, and equally obviously AoE is still king of lategame fights, I still think that they went a bit too far with the Black Cleaver.
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On December 12 2012 03:46 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:41 sylverfyre wrote:On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Muramana is based on Mana, not on AP. You'd probably add in things like Rod of Ages to this build. Muramana alone adds like 100 damage per orb to the Syndra ult, at 2k mana. The ult will hurt. The thing is, nothing else in this build does shit to synergize with the Muramana syndra build, whereas the one proposed on RoG actually makes sense. Why, again, are you putting ARMOR PENETRATION in this build, again? And why are you criticizing the wrong part of the build, sob3k? I never said anything about AP scaling on muramana... There is literally nothing about his build that is not criticizeable other than the muramana, it makes zero sense.
You said "With no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks". That statement implies that if you had AP there might be a difference.
In any case your comparison of 6 muramana procs to a trist going full AS + muramana is ridiculous. You're comparing Syndra's effectiveness with ONE 2100 gold item to a Trist's effectiveness with a 10500 GOLD BUILD. What, do you think Trist spawns with 2.5 attacks per second or something? Is there no such thing as burst damage in your universe?
I mean I'm on the side of manamune Syndra being cheesy and all-in, it doesn't make remotely the same kind of sense it does on Ryze, Ezreal, or Urgot. But this argument is giving me a bloody headache.
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On December 12 2012 03:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Let's say that Syndra only has Muramana and literally no AP. It's going to take until around the 25th minute of the game at the earliest to reach this point, so it's safe to say that Syndra is at least level 11. Thus, her maximum mana is approximately 2000. With 6 orbs Syndra's ultimate will do 1080 raw damage and proc Muramana 6 times. Casting her ultimate drops her mana to 1900. Each orb drains 3% of her maximum mana and deals twice that in damage. We can simplify this mathematically by multiplying her mana by 0.97 a total of 6 times, leaving us with 0.833. The total mana drained is therefore 16.7% of 1900, giving us ~630 additional damage. Syndra would need 528 AP to deal equivalent damage with her ultimate. Even if we halved Syndra's starting mana, you would still need 250 AP to match the damage of Muramana. Thus you're utterly and completely wrong that Muramana + Syndra's ultimate = no damage.
Its not that it does nothing, its just that his build is almost literally the lowest possible damage you can squeeze out of syndra with muramana. The only item in his build with even the smallest amount of synergy is Nashors, and thats pretty much the worst ap and CDR item your could go in the situation.
Also for all practical purposes you will have much less than max mana when you ult, you didn't even account for the mana you spent getting 3 orbs out if you just came into lane and tried to ult.
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Sabin010's build in a nutshell: We put all the weird and expensive hybrid items and put them in one place.
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United States47024 Posts
There's still the part where he's trying to maximize end-game effectiveness on a midgame timing-based champ, completely ignoring the champion's actual power curve.
It's equivalent to trying to create a build that maximizes endgame 6-item damage on Leblanc at the expense of midgame power, when that's completely not what the champ is good for at all.
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On December 12 2012 04:02 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:50 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Let's say that Syndra only has Muramana and literally no AP. It's going to take until around the 25th minute of the game at the earliest to reach this point, so it's safe to say that Syndra is at least level 11. Thus, her maximum mana is approximately 2000. With 6 orbs Syndra's ultimate will do 1080 raw damage and proc Muramana 6 times. Casting her ultimate drops her mana to 1900. Each orb drains 3% of her maximum mana and deals twice that in damage. We can simplify this mathematically by multiplying her mana by 0.97 a total of 6 times, leaving us with 0.833. The total mana drained is therefore 16.7% of 1900, giving us ~630 additional damage. Syndra would need 528 AP to deal equivalent damage with her ultimate. Even if we halved Syndra's starting mana, you would still need 250 AP to match the damage of Muramana. Thus you're utterly and completely wrong that Muramana + Syndra's ultimate = no damage. Its not that it does nothing, its just that his build is almost literally the lowest possible damage you can squeeze out of syndra with muramana. The only item in his build with even the smallest amount of synergy is Nashors, and thats pretty much the worst ap and CDR item your could go in the situation.
Then criticize the rest of his build, not muramana, and people will stop assuming your beef is with muramana.
Also for all practical purposes you will have much less than max mana when you ult, you didn't even account for the mana you spent getting 3 orbs out if you just came into lane and tried to ult.
I guess you missed the part of Seuss's post where he cut the starting mana in half and and gave the AP required to match even that. If we want to get really nitpicky though the mana cost of the ultimate actually doesn't factor into this since it calculates the damage before deducting the mana cost.
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On December 12 2012 04:02 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:50 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:37 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:34 Seuss wrote:On December 12 2012 03:32 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote:On December 12 2012 03:22 sob3k wrote:On December 12 2012 02:41 Sabin010 wrote:
So instead of hating on the Black Cleaver, I want to embrace it. After reading this article (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/22623-muramana-syndra-my-potential-is-limitless) I have been theory crafting a build to make it work. I think I've found a build crazy enough to work, so here is my first idea of a way to try it.
Hybrid Reds. HP regen Yellows. Flat CDR Blues. Hybrid Quints. Your masteries are 21-0-9, get 1 point in Ghost, 4 points in cdr, 8% armour and magic penetration. +3 AD, +6 Armour pen, and Executioner. For the utility, get 1 point in flash, 3 in mana regen, 3 in more mana, 1 in summoner cdr, and longer buff durations.
This set up gives us 8% + 20 armour penetration (this is enough for pretty much true damage from your right clicks vs. a squishy burst caster early game up until lvl 4 or so unless they run armour runes), 8% + 8.52 Magic Penetration (this is going to help your spells). ~10% cdr, Good HP sustain for early trading.
Now the Core Items are Manamune, Black Cleaver with Nashor's Tooth. Black Cleaver and Nashor's Tooth + runes and masteries = ~40% CDR. The 40% CDR will help you turn your Manamune into a Muramana asap. The bonus attackspeed will help you get your black cleaver stacks up. Now you become a self peeling / aoe stunning, sustained dps with an incredible bursty assassination move.
5th Item can be Void Staff for raw magic pen, or a malady for more attackspeed and magic pen. You're probably going to want to get zerker's because of how painfully low your auto attackspeed per level is. On Syndra? No, just no. Your Hybrid Syndra is just straight up retarded, she spams spells out like crazy which probably reduces your amount of autos by like half, her main advantage is she can cast shit while moving, which autoing obviously negates in large part. Muramana does magic damage, which will be shit if you have shit magic pen. You will have no ap so I don't even know why you would bother ever casting a spell, as it would probably reduce your DPS. The ability to proc muramana is not in itself something amazing, you are expected to proc it... Not to mention Syndras spells are all hard to hit and inconsistant and her stun is on huge CD and mobility is garbage, so its not like you are getting amazing utility either. An "incredibly bursty assassination move" what? You have no ap, your ult would do like 11 damage. Just proccing a muramana by itself isn't going to do shit with 50 ap. You seem to completely not understand what Muramana does and why and how you would build it. Its not some magic item that if you proc it fast turns you into an unstoppable death machine, if it was you could just go Muramana PD PD PD on tristana and be a continous syndra ult. Your ultitmate procs Muramana 6 times. You max out w and e for the cc with one point in q to keep the cost low for stacking muramana and clutch stuns. Please don't call the build retarded with out even using it. How much damage do you think a muramana proc does? You realize with no AP 6 muramana procs is considerably worse than 6 auto attacks. ? Muramana damage has nothing to do with AP. Literally, nothing. No, but syndras ult does. I was comparing 6 procs from ult with 6 procs from autoing. Syndra ult with only nashors ap and muramana = no damage. Let's say that Syndra only has Muramana and literally no AP. It's going to take until around the 25th minute of the game at the earliest to reach this point, so it's safe to say that Syndra is at least level 11. Thus, her maximum mana is approximately 2000. With 6 orbs Syndra's ultimate will do 1080 raw damage and proc Muramana 6 times. Casting her ultimate drops her mana to 1900. Each orb drains 3% of her maximum mana and deals twice that in damage. We can simplify this mathematically by multiplying her mana by 0.97 a total of 6 times, leaving us with 0.833. The total mana drained is therefore 16.7% of 1900, giving us ~630 additional damage. Syndra would need 528 AP to deal equivalent damage with her ultimate. Even if we halved Syndra's starting mana, you would still need 250 AP to match the damage of Muramana. Thus you're utterly and completely wrong that Muramana + Syndra's ultimate = no damage. Its not that it does nothing, its just that his build is almost literally the lowest possible damage you can squeeze out of syndra with muramana. The only item in his build with even the smallest amount of synergy is Nashors, and thats pretty much the worst ap and CDR item your could go in the situation. Also for all practical purposes you will have much less than max mana when you ult, you didn't even account for the mana you spent getting 3 orbs out if you just came into lane and tried to ult.
You need to work on your communication skills. You've made a completely different point in every single post whether you intended to or not.
Also, setting up the orbs is covered in the half-mana case, or if she were to have blue.
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i tried a tear/chalice/dcap/muramana build on syndra
it was kinda fun. not that fun though. burst was good but generally your burst is always good anyway, and realistically you're only gonna get 4 or 5 orbs because you want to get your AoE stun (RE) off quickly.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 12 2012 04:07 phyvo wrote:
Then criticize the rest of his build, not muramana, and people will stop assuming your beef is with muramana.
The Muramana's still bad because you're weakening your midgame level 9/13 timings by ~1k gold in order to have a Tear, while gaining the possibility for the endgame ult gimmick--when if you're playing your level 9/13 timings properly, the game should be more or less won or lost for you at that point regardless because of Syndra's relative strength at those levels and weakness later.
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On December 12 2012 04:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:07 phyvo wrote:
Then criticize the rest of his build, not muramana, and people will stop assuming your beef is with muramana.
The Muramana's still bad because you're weakening your midgame level 9/13 timings by ~1k gold in order to have a Tear, while gaining the possibility for the endgame ult gimmick--when if you're playing your level 9/13 timings properly, the game should be more or less won or lost for you at that point regardless because of Syndra's relative strength at those levels and weakness later.
Doesn't syndra have mana problems early and need to build a mana item anyway? Tear is pretty cheap now, slightly more than a sightstone.
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EPT
