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[Patch 1.0.0.151: End of S2] General Discussion - Page 182

Forum Index > LoL General
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onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-24 02:54:29
November 24 2012 02:54 GMT
#3621
Don't know if any one watched the newest State of the League, but there was a lot of pro insight into the new items. I think it was Doublelift, but someone kept talking about how the new items are okay but there's no reason to buy them over your core build, it made me sad that NA teams have such an aversion to innovation. Honestly, I bet the innovative foreign teams build them new items and do all kind of crazy shit and wreck NA teams that refuse to adapt.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
November 24 2012 02:58 GMT
#3622
On November 24 2012 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:
Don't know if any one watched the newest State of the League, but there was a lot of pro insight into the new items. I think it was Doublelift, but someone kept talking about how the new items are okay but there's no reason to buy them over your core build, it made me sad that NA teams have such an aversion to innovation. Honestly, I bet the innovative foreign teams build them new items and do all kind of crazy shit and wreck NA teams that refuse to adapt.


I am fairly certain most feel that was going to happen rather or not the Asian teams use the new items. Doublelift is always had an aversion to trying new things, if I remember correctly he was the guy saying Graves was not that good.
-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 24 2012 03:04 GMT
#3623
On November 24 2012 11:58 Parnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:
Don't know if any one watched the newest State of the League, but there was a lot of pro insight into the new items. I think it was Doublelift, but someone kept talking about how the new items are okay but there's no reason to buy them over your core build, it made me sad that NA teams have such an aversion to innovation. Honestly, I bet the innovative foreign teams build them new items and do all kind of crazy shit and wreck NA teams that refuse to adapt.


I am fairly certain most feel that was going to happen rather or not the Asian teams use the new items. Doublelift is always had an aversion to trying new things, if I remember correctly he was the guy saying Graves was not that good.

I remember that too.

Honestly, if nothing else, the fact that Sightstone and Bottle compare so aggressively to wards and potions means that you'd be silly not to use them (e.g. at the point where you have 6 items and are selling a Doran's to buy wards, buying a Sightstone and selling it later is almost strictly better than buying regular wards because of how the Sightstone sell-back is priced out).
Moderator
petered
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1817 Posts
November 24 2012 03:05 GMT
#3624
Personally, I have never been that impressed with the theorycrafting ability of most pros. When I watch them on stream, most don't seem to be exceptionally smart or insightful. That is not to take away from how good they are, though. Most depend on gut feel, mass gaming and experimentation rather than superior theorycraft. Same way that many top athletes in other sports (basketball, football, hockey, etc.) don't necessarily make good coaches (see: Isiah Thomas)
This, my friends, is the power of the Shikyo Memorial for QQ therapy thread. We make the world a better place, one chainsaw massacre prevention at a time.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35130 Posts
November 24 2012 03:06 GMT
#3625
On November 24 2012 10:30 WirelessWaffle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 08:50 Gahlo wrote:
On November 24 2012 08:38 Sufficiency wrote:
On November 24 2012 08:28 Gahlo wrote:
I bit late, but I just got home from working Black Friday(I really hate people right now.) I tend to pick Fiora into Jax. Either you dodge my E or my ult, your choice. Either way I'm either coming out well ahead on trades to you're dead. Granted, they aren't the best Jax, but I'm not anything special either.


Not sure how you actually win the match up, but it feels awfully difficult to me. Jax press E and you do absolutely zero damage.

I run at you with my AS steroid, you dodge. After, I ult.

-or-

I run at you with AS steroid, you take a small amount of damage and leap away / take the damage from the AS steroid and wait out my ult aaaaand, I turn back to the minions and go back to farming or Mario Cart: Double Dash to safety.

Again neither I or my opponents are anything special, but this is how it turned out so far.



What's your skill order in the jax vs fiora matchup? Also it's worth noting that once anyone buys a chain vest and ninja tabi vs fiora she's kind of useless, considering the cost of the items she'd need to overcome that amount of damage reduction.


WEQ into W>E>Q.

Fiora is going to be really happy with the item changes. BC, BotRK, Hydra...gimme.

On the topic of NA pros and the new items:
I'll weigh their opinion with a grain of salt when they play on the PBE extensively to try them out.
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
November 24 2012 03:09 GMT
#3626
On November 24 2012 11:58 Parnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:
Don't know if any one watched the newest State of the League, but there was a lot of pro insight into the new items. I think it was Doublelift, but someone kept talking about how the new items are okay but there's no reason to buy them over your core build, it made me sad that NA teams have such an aversion to innovation. Honestly, I bet the innovative foreign teams build them new items and do all kind of crazy shit and wreck NA teams that refuse to adapt.


I am fairly certain most feel that was going to happen rather or not the Asian teams use the new items. Doublelift is always had an aversion to trying new things, if I remember correctly he was the guy saying Graves was not that good.

Good point. Another thing that bothered me was most of the pros on the show kept saying things like "Why would you buy x instead of y" without acknowledging that there are situations where you would most certainly want to build x instead of y, just not all of the time. I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise, but the players seem to have such static builds in their heads, the idea of building items to suit certain situations seems completely foreign to them.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
Chiharu Harukaze
Profile Joined September 2011
12112 Posts
November 24 2012 03:11 GMT
#3627
One thing with theorycrafting in LoL is that it is not conducted in as rigorous a manner as perhaps we are used to seeing in Starcraft. Admittedly, some of this may be due to the nature of a team game as opposed to solo play and therefore harder to set up circumstances where you can cookie-cutter test things. Furthermore, given the team nature of things it's harder to test abuse cases since everyone is approaching stuff with their own intentions and not co-ordinating as much (such as in solo queue). We saw Dignitas superheals as a combination of multiple things put together that became very powerful (pre-nerf Koggles, pre-nerf Lulu, pre-nerf Sorara, being new and other people not know how to respond, etc.). However this isn't something you can just go test normally and repeatedly...

Idk. Innovation tends to be very suppressed in LoL. Is it perhaps that the Reddit model has taken over the way we view things? I dunno.
It's like, "Is the Federation's Mobile Suit some kind of monster?"
TheLink
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2725 Posts
November 24 2012 03:16 GMT
#3628
What percentage of solomid weekly finals have actually been played? It's gotta be under 50% by now right? I'm guessing closer to 20%.
Only the weak link is strong enough to break the chain.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
November 24 2012 03:21 GMT
#3629
I predict TPA is going to stomp really, really hard at the beginning of S3. Stanley's theorycraft is second to none.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
aRyuujin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5049 Posts
November 24 2012 03:29 GMT
#3630
quick, in champ select ...
how's ez vs corki?
can i get my estro logo back pls
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
November 24 2012 03:32 GMT
#3631
On November 24 2012 12:09 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 11:58 Parnage wrote:
On November 24 2012 11:54 onlywonderboy wrote:
Don't know if any one watched the newest State of the League, but there was a lot of pro insight into the new items. I think it was Doublelift, but someone kept talking about how the new items are okay but there's no reason to buy them over your core build, it made me sad that NA teams have such an aversion to innovation. Honestly, I bet the innovative foreign teams build them new items and do all kind of crazy shit and wreck NA teams that refuse to adapt.


I am fairly certain most feel that was going to happen rather or not the Asian teams use the new items. Doublelift is always had an aversion to trying new things, if I remember correctly he was the guy saying Graves was not that good.

Good point. Another thing that bothered me was most of the pros on the show kept saying things like "Why would you buy x instead of y" without acknowledging that there are situations where you would most certainly want to build x instead of y, just not all of the time. I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise, but the players seem to have such static builds in their heads, the idea of building items to suit certain situations seems completely foreign to them.


This is why I like Guardsmen Bob's thoughts on how to build things. He's very much against static build x,y then z or you suck. While he may not be the best player ever, he does seem to understand that item builds are not so easily defined. That and he's the Mister Rodgers of League.
-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
November 24 2012 03:33 GMT
#3632
On November 24 2012 12:11 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
One thing with theorycrafting in LoL is that it is not conducted in as rigorous a manner as perhaps we are used to seeing in Starcraft. Admittedly, some of this may be due to the nature of a team game as opposed to solo play and therefore harder to set up circumstances where you can cookie-cutter test things. Furthermore, given the team nature of things it's harder to test abuse cases since everyone is approaching stuff with their own intentions and not co-ordinating as much (such as in solo queue). We saw Dignitas superheals as a combination of multiple things put together that became very powerful (pre-nerf Koggles, pre-nerf Lulu, pre-nerf Sorara, being new and other people not know how to respond, etc.). However this isn't something you can just go test normally and repeatedly...

Idk. Innovation tends to be very suppressed in LoL. Is it perhaps that the Reddit model has taken over the way we view things? I dunno.

I don't play Starcraft, but I've seen enough charts and graphs to know the amount of theorycrafting that goes into the game is mind boggling. I agree that theorycrafting a strong team like Dig did is really hard to do, but I think good players should know how to alter builds and situationally adapt to how a game is unfolding. I'd like if things weren't "I have enough gold, I should buy IE" but more "Well things are pretty even so I'm gonna buy IE, but if things were different maybe it would be better to build something else." I don't know if there is enough diversity in items in LoL for this to be possible, but it's what I would like. I would argue there are plenty of people on this forum that prove a high level of theorycrafting is possible for certain things (match-ups, builds, skill order).
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 24 2012 03:41 GMT
#3633
On November 24 2012 12:29 aRyuujin wrote:
quick, in champ select ...
how's ez vs corki?

the more important question are the supports
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13849 Posts
November 24 2012 03:48 GMT
#3634
On November 24 2012 12:41 OutlaW- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 12:29 aRyuujin wrote:
quick, in champ select ...
how's ez vs corki?

the more important question are the supports


Yeah the lane phase is more about the supports you got then the adc you have. Corki will have 40% maybe more damage then ez in a stright up fight but ez can dance. 2 poke supports will benifit ez more but if one has a lock down then it heavily favors corki.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Eppa!
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden4641 Posts
November 24 2012 03:49 GMT
#3635
Just like about everything in LoL the most important thing to theory craft is centered around objectives, drake, blue respawns and ganking patterns. Fleshing out builds are easy and will be stagnant month or 2 after item changes. It's still going to be cookie cutter builds with small variations (Graves: BT vs IE, Ez: Triforce vs phage bt). What few teams do well as of now is group movement based on comp to control map objectives.

What dignitas did was pick these champs play standard except for team fights. Timings for things needs to move forward into the game and start to be about 3 and 4 respawn on buffs.



Ez vs Corki is either way depends on support i prefer being Corki early and mid game but EZ is EZ so it can go either way.
"Can't wait till Monday" Cixah+Waveofshadow. "Needs to be monday. Weekend please go by quickly." Gahlo
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 24 2012 03:52 GMT
#3636
HOLY SHIT
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31736475#31736475
YES
PLEASE
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
GARO
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2255 Posts
November 24 2012 03:55 GMT
#3637
On November 24 2012 10:58 NeoIllusions wrote:
http://www.own3d.tv/SaintVicious

Crs.na's IPL5 lineup practicing some ranked 5s. Should be amusing.

Navitar sighting
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-24 04:00:07
November 24 2012 03:56 GMT
#3638
On November 24 2012 12:52 OutlaW- wrote:
HOLY SHIT
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31736475#31736475
YES
PLEASE


Le sigh. I'm not sure even reindeer kog is worth whatever price someone would sell him for even if not buying him is my only LoL regret.

Also the PBE isn't rigorous testing I know but I was really enjoying muramana + icebound gauntlet EZ the other night. I don't care what the pros think, I'm going to use S3 to build whatever the crap I want until people start complaining about the meta again. I'm pretty sure half the new support items are OP anyway (huehue heat seeking wraiths).
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 24 2012 03:59 GMT
#3639
im gonna study economics for the event
not sure if i should try to snatch my skins early when people dont realize how much people will actually be willing to pay for them (KITTY KAT KAT HOLY SHIT) or if I should wait for the demand to drop
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-24 04:05:14
November 24 2012 04:02 GMT
#3640
On November 24 2012 12:59 OutlaW- wrote:
im gonna study economics for the event
not sure if i should try to snatch my skins early when people dont realize how much people will actually be willing to pay for them (KITTY KAT KAT HOLY SHIT) or if I should wait for the demand to drop

Scarra would pay SO MUCH RP for the chance to buy Kitty Cat Kat.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
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