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On October 24 2012 13:43 Cloud9157 wrote:
Just really wish they would show us the changes to augments they have planned for Viktor. Q is pretty much worthless to take overall, w is pretty decent for potentially catching someone, and his e is just ridiculous in lane. 100+ ap with sorc shoes+death = clear 5/6 minion with 1 e. Annoying when the dot messes up last hitting though.
Not to interrupt all the sc2/lol talk too much, but just wanted to point out on Viktor that a Red said all work on him was on hold until after the Season 3 work is done. So I assume you won't hear anything until around the pre-season (or does that start immediately after Season 2 is soft-wiped?)
More on topic, I'm very confused between the last 3-4 pages. Talk about sc2 and/or the introduction to LoL compared to the constant caster bashing for always treating the audience like beginners. I know the rebuttal will be that it's really how casters do instruction/teaching poorly, but that's rarely ever the actual whining in the live threads.
But to each their own.
Since Barbsq touched on Urgot mid earlier, could Urgot be a counter to Kat? I don't play either champ, but that thought occurred to me last week when I was lurking around the lol wiki.
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No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie?
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On October 25 2012 01:38 Kavas wrote:
No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie?
Annie is not a good Katarina counter.
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On October 25 2012 01:35 Prinate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:43 Cloud9157 wrote:
Just really wish they would show us the changes to augments they have planned for Viktor. Q is pretty much worthless to take overall, w is pretty decent for potentially catching someone, and his e is just ridiculous in lane. 100+ ap with sorc shoes+death = clear 5/6 minion with 1 e. Annoying when the dot messes up last hitting though. Not to interrupt all the sc2/lol talk too much, but just wanted to point out on Viktor that a Red said all work on him was on hold until after the Season 3 work is done. So I assume you won't hear anything until around the pre-season (or does that start immediately after Season 2 is soft-wiped?) More on topic, I'm very confused between the last 3-4 pages. Talk about sc2 and/or the introduction to LoL compared to the constant caster bashing for always treating the audience like beginners. I know the rebuttal will be that it's really how casters do instruction/teaching poorly, but that's rarely ever the actual whining in the live threads. But to each their own. Since Barbsq touched on Urgot mid earlier, could Urgot be a counter to Kat? I don't play either champ, but that thought occurred to me last week when I was lurking around the lol wiki.
But wouldn't a good Kat be a little too hard to hit with your e if she shunpo's correctly?
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United States23745 Posts
On October 25 2012 01:35 Prinate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:43 Cloud9157 wrote:
Just really wish they would show us the changes to augments they have planned for Viktor. Q is pretty much worthless to take overall, w is pretty decent for potentially catching someone, and his e is just ridiculous in lane. 100+ ap with sorc shoes+death = clear 5/6 minion with 1 e. Annoying when the dot messes up last hitting though. Not to interrupt all the sc2/lol talk too much, but just wanted to point out on Viktor that a Red said all work on him was on hold until after the Season 3 work is done. So I assume you won't hear anything until around the pre-season (or does that start immediately after Season 2 is soft-wiped?)More on topic, I'm very confused between the last 3-4 pages. Talk about sc2 and/or the introduction to LoL compared to the constant caster bashing for always treating the audience like beginners. I know the rebuttal will be that it's really how casters do instruction/teaching poorly, but that's rarely ever the actual whining in the live threads. But to each their own. Since Barbsq touched on Urgot mid earlier, could Urgot be a counter to Kat? I don't play either champ, but that thought occurred to me last week when I was lurking around the lol wiki.
Pretty sure the pre-season starts right when Season 2 ends, but I figure they mean he won't be looked at until they have implemented the new items/jungle/masteries.
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If you want to lane counter Kat you pick Fiddles or Akali. Those are the only (conventional anyway) that really shuts her down. All others just demand that Kat really knows the match up or requires her to play safe.
vs. Fiddle/Akali however, Kat can never ever trade well and will never get to cs unless under tower.
AS for team fight "counters" to Kat, there are quite a few.
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On October 25 2012 01:45 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:38 Kavas wrote:
No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie? Annie is not a good Katarina counter.
Care to explain why?
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Isn't Galio kind of a counter to most AP assassins like Kat?
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On October 25 2012 01:51 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:45 Sufficiency wrote:On October 25 2012 01:38 Kavas wrote:
No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie? Annie is not a good Katarina counter. Care to explain why?
It's not a counter, but Kat struggles vs. good Annies. Kat has to level Q to cs and pop pots to counter Annie's AA but you can still stay close enough to cs with Q and when stun is up, you stay safe. At level 6 Kat needs to be reeeally on her toes when Tibbers and stun is up. Flash/shunpo to counter flash+tibbers from Annie is how you survive. Not easy, but definitely doable.
So, while Annie doesn't really counter Kat, it's a tough match up that forces Kat to play safe all lane phase. You only get to harass when stun is down which might be enough but since you're often forced to level Q your QEW-combo is weaker than usual.
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Fiddle and akali dont waveclear fast enough to be a counter to kat, she is just going to roam.
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since when does kat need any counters? she is not strong in lane and similarly bad outside of the lane, except at farming kills from other lanes.
if you really care about counters: the more tanky champions you have the worse are assassins. if you want to counter her in lane get any champion that is considered good atm. you will either outscale her/own her/have better utility. she is not even a good assassin. talon, akali, kassadin, fizz and there are so many other burst ap carries that have much more value outside of their damage and have much more reliable damage.
I'am not saying nobody should play her, cuz she is fun. but you certainly don't need counters against her or you are being outplayed anyways.
On October 25 2012 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
Fiddle and akali dont waveclear fast enough to be a counter to kat, she is just going to roam.
I don't know about fiddle but akali is fast enough and has generally an edge over kat in lane. shunpo doesnt help against targeted damage, and akali's single target is higher than kat's. the advantage kat has over akali is that she can escape ganks better.
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On October 24 2012 15:30 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:09 Alaric wrote:On October 24 2012 12:51 Ziken wrote:
Okay, I just have to say this, kudos to soniv, coz he kept saying viktor is awesome, and today i discover that he is indeed a very wise man :D, having so much fun with viktor atm. I was wondering if people would play Viktor during his free week. Apart from you, I only heard of one guy and he doesn't like him at all (and calls him Victor). On October 24 2012 12:55 Kenpachi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:51 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Yeah...I'm sorry, I just can't have any respect for people who use Kat right now. hey jcarls how do i even counter the bitch Viktor. o> QEQ, zone her off from the beginning, and make her eat a QE every time she has to come close to trade. Ult when she does. Outpush her at every turn and roam more. Out of curiosity, why do people do a QEQ combo as Viktor? The range on E would seem to allow you to use it before you get in range for a Q, so to me the intuitive combo would be EQ into either backing of or trading autos while the shield is still up. Do you want to save the burst for an extended trade to make use of your Q shield?
Short answer: you trade better in the short interval where you can actually Q harass, while still retaining your ability to clear later, and it's less mana-intensive.
Long answer:
Viktor is bad at trading. His range is short, he only has two spells, and their ratios are quite weak (Annie has 10% AP, 25 range more and shorter cooldowns, Xerath has 5% AP more with better base damage and up to 400 more range, or equal range with a stun). This mostly picks up at level 3-4, when his lane opponent has all 3 spells to trade with, so it's all the more for him not to take W at level 3.
W isn't actually very useful in lane, unless you fight aggressive melee champs (Fizz, Akali), as it doesn't help trading before 6 (where champs like Swain chasing you, situations like towerdives, or people trying to outrun your ult can make it shine) and is mostly useless against a ton of junglers (its range + cast time make it so that any jungler with a gap closer will get you. Its radius is actually shorter than some point'n'click gap closers, like Irelia's or Talon's, too, hence why he sucks more than Ryze top lane). So there's no point taking it until you have your ult (so level 8).
+ Show Spoiler [spells stats] +Q
Range: 600
Cooldown: 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5
Cost: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 mana
Magic Damage: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 65% AP)
E
Range: 700
Cooldown: 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9
Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 mana
Magic Damage: 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+ 70% AP)
So you're left with a choice between level 2 Q or level 2 E at level 3. QEQ compared to QEE allows you a better harass with a single Q if you want to retain mana, costs 5 less mana for the same damage if you hit both spells, and gives you more shield in case your opponent retaliates. Since Q is point'n'click and E a skillshot, it's also more reliable. If you do QEEQ, at level 4 a lot of champs gain a 3rd spell to trade with that'll make you lose if you try to use Q's short range (even worse, if they have cc or good animations/range you'll eat the whole thing before you can even get the shield), making you prefer to poke with E, that you could have at level 2 at your 4th with the QEQE order too.
So you take QEQ and be a bully with Q+autos trades whenever you see an opening (I like MS quints morre for this, apparently Soniv went back from AP quints to them too).
I don't know how Soniv plays it, as I picked up this order from him (I was doing QEEWE or QEEQE and playing passive until I start poking with E at level 5, which is doable but bad on Viktor), but I barely use E when its level 1, unless I see a possibility to put my opponent on the back foot with the additional damage, or maybe a "if I add my E immediatly to that trade, maybe the next one I can QE ignite for a kill" during level 3, so I can keep some mana and be able to counterpush against champs that like to start shoving the lane at level 4-5.
Usually I play kinda aggressive at level 1, ease up a bit at 2, and go aggressive again at 3 when my Q reaches rank 2.
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I think the gdt has become the lol reddit.
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I think it's important not to go overboard "countering" people like Kat. You end up pairing off your lane and then Kat is sick in teamfights later whereas people like Akali/Fiddle/Galio not so much. I really think you either need serious kill potential (kassadin/diana/ahri) or at least be able to keep up late-game. Like I had a GP today who insisted on mid to counter their first pick kassadin. Sure he denied kass some farm but then we ended up with a GP and no AP carry...
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Baa?21244 Posts
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On October 25 2012 01:51 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:45 Sufficiency wrote:On October 25 2012 01:38 Kavas wrote:
No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie? Annie is not a good Katarina counter. Care to explain why?
All I know is, I'm bad enough at Annie to wiff ulti's on non-gapclosing champions, just imagine how many I would miss on Kat. lol.
As far as "countering" kat, I don't think she's as amazing in lane as people thinks she is. Her strengths is her ability to roam and get snowballing, so if you want to counter Kat, you have to counter her roaming strength, not her lane phase. So either choose someone who can keep up with kat, and can 1v1 when chasing into rivers, or choose someone that can shove lanes super hard.
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On October 25 2012 01:55 Requizen wrote:
Isn't Galio kind of a counter to most AP assassins like Kat?
Galio doesn't counter Kat anymore.
He used to counter her, but new Kat is something different.
Matchup now depends on the junglers imo.
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On October 25 2012 01:58 Cuddle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:51 Kavas wrote:On October 25 2012 01:45 Sufficiency wrote:On October 25 2012 01:38 Kavas wrote:
No idea why Urgot should be considered a counter to Kat. If you want a counter, why not just pick Annie? Annie is not a good Katarina counter. Care to explain why? It's not a counter, but Kat struggles vs. good Annies. Kat has to level Q to cs and pop pots to counter Annie's AA but you can still stay close enough to cs with Q and when stun is up, you stay safe. At level 6 Kat needs to be reeeally on her toes when Tibbers and stun is up. Flash/shunpo to counter flash+tibbers from Annie is how you survive. Not easy, but definitely doable. So, while Annie doesn't really counter Kat, it's a tough match up that forces Kat to play safe all lane phase. You only get to harass when stun is down which might be enough but since you're often forced to level Q your QEW-combo is weaker than usual.
Some other problems with Annie:
- When stun is not up, she loses trades against Katarina by a large margin.
- Katarina's Q is 50 range longer than Annie's Q; Katarina also has higher base movement (15 higher) and a blink. It's difficult to trade Qs in lane as Annie.
Ofc if you are good with Annie I am sure you can outplay a Katarina somehow. But it feels to me that there are a lot of different ways which a Katarina can outplay an Annie in lane. Then again, Katarina can outplay almost all other mid laners right now
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Galio is ridiculous, been having good success with him in mid lately
boots -> chalice -> guise (and a magic pen runepage, 9/21/0) -> grail -> zhonya -> MASH KIDS
not pleased that I generally need to flash for the kill combo, but with so much mpen, you put any mid in kill range with a single Q at lvl 6
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On October 25 2012 01:59 clickrush wrote:since when does kat need any counters? she is not strong in lane and similarly bad outside of the lane, except at farming kills from other lanes. if you really care about counters: the more tanky champions you have the worse are assassins. if you want to counter her in lane get any champion that is considered good atm. you will either outscale her/own her/have better utility. she is not even a good assassin. talon, akali, kassadin, fizz and there are so many other burst ap carries that have much more value outside of their damage and have much more reliable damage. I'am not saying nobody should play her, cuz she is fun. but you certainly don't need counters against her or you are being outplayed anyways. Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
Fiddle and akali dont waveclear fast enough to be a counter to kat, she is just going to roam. I don't know about fiddle but akali is fast enough and has generally an edge over kat in lane. shunpo doesnt help against targeted damage, and akali's single target is higher than kat's. the advantage kat has over akali is that she can escape ganks better.
akali loses to kat hard from level 3 onwards
i can still W you when you shroud and run away before you can detonate a Q
at 6 or after 6 akali can't all in you cause you just stand there and ult
annie rapes kat in lane currently cause kat can't poke back and is zoned by annie Q, kat loses trades because she won't be able to jump on you when you have stun up
point + click cc and decent wave clear are all you need to handle kat in lane
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EPT
