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On October 24 2012 22:22 sob3k wrote:
I would definitely say LoL is much harder to watch than SC for somone with no idea what is going on.
SC: "Look, the humans are making a base and gathering resources for an army to fight and destroy the alien bug base and army"
LoL: Even the objectives are confusing, if you don't know the characters its absolutely baffling
some stuff I've heard asked that leads to way the fuck too long explanations:
"Why don't they go attack the enemy base?"
"What the hell are the little monsters doing"
"Why are they just standing around killing little monsters"
"What the hell is an inhib"
"Why don't the heroes go fight each other"
"Why don't they attack the towers"
"What do the items do"
"What on earth just happened in that fight"
"What are baron/dragon"
"Its been 25 minutes, why are they still sitting around attacking little monsters."
And thats not even getting into explaining why certain champs go to certain lanes, which leads into the roles of AD vs AP and itemization which makes no sense if you don't already know the items.
People forget how much of a total mess teamfighting is if you don't know what the champs do. We see a great xerath ult picking off kog before a leona ult initiate into a counter initiate by morgana with zhonyas etc etc....but to an noob they don't even know who the hell these explosions are coming from, or if they are good or bad, or why some people are are all running towards some champs and then they run away, and then the purple one turns into a gold statue and then kog maw turns purple and then runs into the team and explodes wtf. It is literally completely incoherent until you have memorized over a hundred different characters.
SC battles are like 200x easier to understand
I think in general RTS games like SC are much easier to understand from a conceptual point of view than DOTA style games, which just require a ton of rote memorization before things begin to become coherent. Of course after that starting phase RTS's become ridiculously tough, but I have taught several friends how to play BW/SC2 and LoL, and teaching LoL is a fucking nightmare to get people started on comparatively.
I mean even resource gathering is fucking retarded in LoL compared to SC. Mining minerals makes total real world sense....killing tiny cloaked munchkins of the correct color at the last possible second as they wander around aimlessly and receiving a gold payment is like something from the bad dream of a paranoid schizophrenic.
Start by explaining that it's like an RPG on fast forward. They need to destroy the enemy base, but they're only level 1 right now and those towers will kick their butt, so they're fighting little dudes for exp and money to buy equipment (Don't need to explain last-hitting here, or exactly what items do. Items make your guy stronger, that's enough for now.), while also trying to kill the enemy team because that gives a lot more money (but is obviously harder to pull off) or at least prevent the enemy team from 'farming'
From here, you can explain how strong those towers are, you can explain ganking (Surprise them to try and kill a guy) and team objectives. Everything else is building up to having enough power to kill the other team and destroy their base.
You can explain how some champions are mages, some are tanky, some are glass cannons, and how those roles fit together in a team. You can then explain what an ultimate is, and start going over exactly what happens during a teamfight (If it's someone's first time watching Football (american) are you going to start off by explaining exactly what everyone is doing during a play? Don't think so.)
On October 24 2012 22:38 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:33 Numy wrote:On October 24 2012 22:22 sob3k wrote:
I would definitely say LoL is much harder to watch than SC for somone with no idea what is going on.
SC: "Look, the humans are making a base and gathering resources for an army to fight and destroy the alien bug base and army"
That's not what people see when they have no idea what's going on in SC2. Starting your whole argument with an extremely biased premise is rather bad and discredits anything you say afterwards. No, thats what you tell them. Someone can follow an SC game on a very basic level and probably even tell you who is winning after literally that sentence of explanation and a point out of the workers and crystals just by looking at who has more stuff. Try that same exercise with DOTA or leagues.
Kill score, towers destroyed. Maybe even team gold, once they understand how gold is made.
If there's a lane engagement, that's a great place to show an early fight where scales may tip one way or another. You don't need to understand exactly what every ability does (just explain whatever key CC ability that usually decides the fight) to understand that a fight starts, some abilities go off, and someone limps off at half health and the other guy is mostly full. Hey look, he's ahead now.
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On October 24 2012 22:22 sob3k wrote:
some stuff I've heard asked that leads to way the fuck too long explanations:
"Why don't they go attack the enemy base?"
"What the hell are the little monsters doing"
"Why are they just standing around killing little monsters"
"What the hell is an inhib"
"Why don't the heroes go fight each other"
"Why don't they attack the towers"
"What do the items do"
"What on earth just happened in that fight"
"What are baron/dragon"
"Its been 25 minutes, why are they still sitting around attacking little monsters."
For SC2:
"Why don't they go attack the enemy base?"
"What the hell are the little things doing next to those blue crystals?"
(in what universe are tanks made from blue crystals? No to mention bilogical units...)
"Why are they just standing around in front of their own base?"
"What the hell is (insert any unit/spell in the game)"
"Why don't they fight each other?"
"Why don't they attack the enemy base?"
"What does (insert any unit/spell in the game) do?"
"What on earth just happened in that fight?"
"What is a Watchtower/Destructible Rocks?"
"It's been 15 minutes, why are they still sitting around mining?"
If you think that people have a problem with understanding why you don't rightclick towers at lvl 1, then please also assume that people have a problem with understanding why you would invest into economy or hold back units instead of just suiciding them into the enemy base in SC2.
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On October 24 2012 22:35 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:08 Redox wrote:On October 24 2012 22:07 spinesheath wrote:On October 24 2012 21:59 AsnSensation wrote:i aggree, however LoL and SC2 audience aren't that much different like in american idol and Breaking Bad case... Starcraft is a much more complex game and is hard to follow if you have no idea what is going on. You don't need to be top 8 GM to understand the game from a spectators viewpoint, but you need to understand the game to know whats going on.
LoL is a lot more straight forward and anyone can follow it with little game knowledge. Post from another Thread. what do you guys think about this? I always thought that it was the other way around, I remember the time when IEM first had LoL tournaments and I wasnt into it yet and didnt understand what the hell was going on I got into LoL by watching streams with exactly ZERO prior experience in the genre. No idea what problems you guys have with watching LoL. No idea if SC2 is hard to watch if you don't know it, since I never was in that situation. Can't be too hard either though since it's just blob vs blob -> end. Same here. Got into watching LoL without ever playing it. Started playing a little much later, but its still insignificant in relation to watching. I have a few friends who enjoy watching LoL games, but don't play. During the first few, I explained a few things but not really all that much. I think that it's equally true for both Starcraft and LoL - there's an initial barrier, but once you understand that, the rest of the game begins to unravel and you can start understanding strategy. (hell, I'd contest that the barrier is not much bigger than for American Football.) Anyone who's played a handful of RPGs has the general knowledge required to get that far.
American Football makes literally no sense whatsoever if you have no idea about it. When i was in the states, it was on tv, and it completely absurd. Both teams stand in a line, the referee blows his whistle, they run at each other, whistle again, they go back to standing in a line. That happened about 10 times in a row, then i watched something else.
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On October 24 2012 22:53 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:35 sylverfyre wrote:On October 24 2012 22:08 Redox wrote:On October 24 2012 22:07 spinesheath wrote:On October 24 2012 21:59 AsnSensation wrote:i aggree, however LoL and SC2 audience aren't that much different like in american idol and Breaking Bad case... Starcraft is a much more complex game and is hard to follow if you have no idea what is going on. You don't need to be top 8 GM to understand the game from a spectators viewpoint, but you need to understand the game to know whats going on.
LoL is a lot more straight forward and anyone can follow it with little game knowledge. Post from another Thread. what do you guys think about this? I always thought that it was the other way around, I remember the time when IEM first had LoL tournaments and I wasnt into it yet and didnt understand what the hell was going on I got into LoL by watching streams with exactly ZERO prior experience in the genre. No idea what problems you guys have with watching LoL. No idea if SC2 is hard to watch if you don't know it, since I never was in that situation. Can't be too hard either though since it's just blob vs blob -> end. Same here. Got into watching LoL without ever playing it. Started playing a little much later, but its still insignificant in relation to watching. I have a few friends who enjoy watching LoL games, but don't play. During the first few, I explained a few things but not really all that much. I think that it's equally true for both Starcraft and LoL - there's an initial barrier, but once you understand that, the rest of the game begins to unravel and you can start understanding strategy. (hell, I'd contest that the barrier is not much bigger than for American Football.) Anyone who's played a handful of RPGs has the general knowledge required to get that far. American Football makes literally no sense whatsoever if you have no idea about it. When i was in the states, it was on tv, and it completely absurd. Both teams stand in a line, the referee blows his whistle, they run at each other, whistle again, they go back to standing in a line. That happened about 10 times in a row, then i watched something else.
That's PRECISELY why I figured it would be a good example in the "makes no sense at first" ;p I daresay it's actually harder for someone to be explained football vs. LoL if they have experience with other video games and also experience with other sports (lets say they know RPGs, and Soccer.)
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When someone starts with watching LoL the best way of getting into it is watching a first person stream, not a observer one. It gives you a much better feeling of what a player actually does. And the information is somewhat limited if the focus is only on one person.
You immediatly get that the player is trying to last hit creeps, that he gets gold from that, that he buys items with that gold, and that he proceeds to kill other players then. Its just like with any single player RPG. From this basic understanding it expands into the team aspect of the game.
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It took me a really long time watching american football to understand what that whole "2nd&8" business was all about.
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Talon y u no press Q against towers. T_T Shit's so good, I was surprised but with enough AD to oneshot minion waves with Rake, Talon actually pushes pretty well. Reset auto with Q's bonus damage all day.
Ah, yeah, was talking about http://nicegame.tv/new/ . Since noone's talking about it anymore I guess it wasn't the qualifiers?
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On October 24 2012 21:54 Simberto wrote:
I think you got the Q the wrong way around, it is at 150% now, and will probably be nerfed, not buffed.
I only pasted it as RoG had it.
On October 24 2012 22:53 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:35 sylverfyre wrote:On October 24 2012 22:08 Redox wrote:On October 24 2012 22:07 spinesheath wrote:On October 24 2012 21:59 AsnSensation wrote:i aggree, however LoL and SC2 audience aren't that much different like in american idol and Breaking Bad case... Starcraft is a much more complex game and is hard to follow if you have no idea what is going on. You don't need to be top 8 GM to understand the game from a spectators viewpoint, but you need to understand the game to know whats going on.
LoL is a lot more straight forward and anyone can follow it with little game knowledge. Post from another Thread. what do you guys think about this? I always thought that it was the other way around, I remember the time when IEM first had LoL tournaments and I wasnt into it yet and didnt understand what the hell was going on I got into LoL by watching streams with exactly ZERO prior experience in the genre. No idea what problems you guys have with watching LoL. No idea if SC2 is hard to watch if you don't know it, since I never was in that situation. Can't be too hard either though since it's just blob vs blob -> end. Same here. Got into watching LoL without ever playing it. Started playing a little much later, but its still insignificant in relation to watching. I have a few friends who enjoy watching LoL games, but don't play. During the first few, I explained a few things but not really all that much. I think that it's equally true for both Starcraft and LoL - there's an initial barrier, but once you understand that, the rest of the game begins to unravel and you can start understanding strategy. (hell, I'd contest that the barrier is not much bigger than for American Football.) Anyone who's played a handful of RPGs has the general knowledge required to get that far. American Football makes literally no sense whatsoever if you have no idea about it. When i was in the states, it was on tv, and it completely absurd. Both teams stand in a line, the referee blows his whistle, they run at each other, whistle again, they go back to standing in a line. That happened about 10 times in a row, then i watched something else.
Funny, that was how war was fought at a time. lol
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Coming from a WoW background (and so do most of the RL people I play with), I just understood LoL as a 5v5 battleground (not arena, though I guess Murderbridge comes close) where everyone starts from scratch every time. Same ideas:
-A balanced team is better than a team full of one role
-Capturing objectives is sometimes more important than fighting (get the stables n00bs! Don't fight on the roads!)
-Items > skill (mostly, a large discrepancy goes to the better player but at close skill levels, better items win)
--Corollary: grinding sucks but is necessary (and much faster in LoL than a WoW arena season)
-It's a team game, being a solo hero is dumb and costs the game.
...actually, you can explain it like that to pretty much anybody who's experienced a competitive game. Not to non-gamers, of course, but I always thought the idea of LoL being "hard to understand" to gamers as laughable. The specific mechanics come with experience, but the idea of a team game with resources, objectives, and items that improve your character is pretty straightforward.
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On October 24 2012 22:34 Dandel Ion wrote:
So, Tiamat on single-target junglers.
Yes, or yes?
Well, I mean, if you're gonna build 1, why not 5?
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The issue isn't really, I think, whether it's hard to explain, but whether a gamer can "get it" simply by watching it himself -- not everyone has the advantage that their LoL-expert friend is next to them at all times.
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On October 24 2012 23:24 thenexusp wrote:
The issue isn't really, I think, whether it's hard to explain, but whether a gamer can "get it" simply by watching it himself -- not everyone has the advantage that their LoL-expert friend is next to them at all times.
Eh, I think with a little rational and logic (fine, a bit difficult to find in most people) you can figure it out by paying attention at all. Some characters are straightforward - Caitlyn, Graves, MF, and Ashe have bug guns (or bow), they probably shoot things. At the same time, Naut is a big dude in armor and Taric and Leona have armor and shields. They're probably tanky characters. Brand's on fire, I'd imagine that's his shtick. And while Ez has no discerning look to him (other than anime prettyboy), you only need to see him auto and Mystic Shot once to get the idea.
As far as the other stuff goes, while you don't get exactly why Red and Blue buffs are so important, you can tell people who kill them have glowy things around them (usually an indicator of good things happening) and scare out enemies. If you pay attention to the dude with Blue and see his mana coming back fast, that's pretty straightforward as well, though hard to see sometimes. Dragon and Baron might be confusing, but the first time you see a Dragon attempt, you realize "oh, it hits really hard, probably need your team with you for that. Oh, they all got money after it died, good to know". Same for Baron, though not knowing what the buff does might make understanding it's importance more complex.
And you only need to see a tower fire off once or twice to realize that it's not something you want to be around. A bit of deductive reasoning goes "Hm, that low-health person is staying near his tower, and the enemy still won't go towards him. The tower might be a strong enough deterrent".
Last hitting is of course more difficult to figure out, as are pushing, freezing and split pushing. But you get a feel for each champion watching them do their combo once or twice (if not by seeing their model), and if you have any strategy game experience, watching the map lets you know that wards give vision and what type of positioning and roaming is helpful.
Or maybe it was just easy for me to pick up. I really never saw a problem with the game, just getting used to and improving mechanics.
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On October 24 2012 23:24 thenexusp wrote:
The issue isn't really, I think, whether it's hard to explain, but whether a gamer can "get it" simply by watching it himself -- not everyone has the advantage that their LoL-expert friend is next to them at all times.
Depends on what you mean by watching by yourself. Coming from a WC3 background and having seen Dota it was sort of easy to draw the comparison. Summoner spells were the first 'new' thing I learned about LOL. Buffs took a long time and without looking at Leaguepedia I would have never understood why Baron/red/blue buffs were so important.
Obviously you won't understand what each champ did the first time watching but seeing it a few times made it quite simple to understand.
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But you don't need to know exactly WHAT a buff does to realize that it does SOMETHING GOOD. Baron gives a buff to the whole team, and the casters or person whose stream you're watching is going to be talking about it... it's obviously a gamechanger even before you understand that ti gives you a pile of damage AND a pile of regen so you can lay siege to their base.
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Not quite. I know it did something but not knowing what it did it downplayed its importance to me. A simple example I could give is stim in Starcraft. We know it gives extra dps, made marines shoot and move faster. However, if you did not have the hp bar on, you won't know that it decrease their hp unless you had a marine selected and watched the numbers go down. There was an 'incident' where a 'friend' called players 'trash' for not stimming his marines all the way from his base to the enemy's and calling Terran OP because of this.
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It took me a few games to realise that there was any advantage to killing Dragon and why people made such a big deal about it; because it didn't me shiny circles or floaty things....... derp 
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On October 24 2012 22:53 Simberto wrote:
American Football makes literally no sense whatsoever if you have no idea about it. When i was in the states, it was on tv, and it completely absurd. Both teams stand in a line, the referee blows his whistle, they run at each other, whistle again, they go back to standing in a line. That happened about 10 times in a row, then i watched something else.
then someone gets crushed on a huge hit and you're like O_O!
i prefer american football because even though they stop play a lot, they go balls out on every play.
support psports please. the p is for physical.
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5 tiamat tiger udyr is actualy really good. his initial tiger shred can be double proced at the start of a fight for massive damage. and then beacuse he does more aoe damage now then god. Make a comp with darius top ori mid corki taric bot and 5 tiamat tiger udyr and you've got the massive damage massive damage team.
Its literaly unbeatable.
Also does anyone know when s2 worlds review is coming out? its been really late and I'm starting to get worreid about it not coming out.
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I'm talking about people with little experience with the genre as a whole (think FPS or fighting game people) -- of course if you've played dota before learning how lol works is going to be easy.
I think the single least transparent mechanic is last-hitting/pushing/freezing lane. A friend who was watching lol for the first time asked why they don't attack enemy minions more, because "don't you want to help your own minions out in pushing the enemy base?"
Also, teamfights are impossible to understand beyond "ooooohhh pretty colors" to a new watcher but I think good commentary and slow-motion replays can help greatly in this regard.
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The one question I kept asking when I watched my friends play LoL and I didn't was, "Why don't one team all go one lane and bumrush them?"
Heh how I've learned.
And yea I agree. Spectator-wise, LoL/HoN/DoTA probably the hardest games for ppl who have never ever played it to keep up/watch. SC/FPS/fighters so easy for new viewers to watch/understand.
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EPT
