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I was honored "helpful" in a game where I said nothing but "catalyst, double dorans and chalice on our kass kinda shows where this game is going" and "this is why you don´t firstpick kassadin".
Just shows how little the honor system actually means if you get honored despite being a dick.
No, no. Absolute honor points mean fuck all, of course people are going to incorrectly hand out points. Riot is well aware of that. It's your honor points relative to other players that is meaningful. The issue is whether the point differential for being nice (as opposed to "average" or mean) is going to sufficiently overcome the noise from arbitrary point handouts.
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On October 03 2012 06:12 Hakanfrog wrote:
I was honored "helpful" in a game where I said nothing but "catalyst, double dorans and chalice on our kass kinda shows where this game is going" and "this is why you don´t firstpick kassadin".
Just shows how little the honor system actually means if you get honored despite being a dick.
If you act like you want honor you won't get any. no compromises.
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I am fairly certain I got honored once for being friendly/helpful because I had put on a fake posh british accent in pre-game. Some guy kept pulling stats out about how bad I had played in my last game and that I would fail. In game I tore into him and proceeded to do much better than him and throw his insults back in his face. He quit and we lost. Apparently this is good behaviour. Also had a guy who suggested we all honor everyone.
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The big issue I have with Honor is that you can't lose any, from what I see. So you can act polite for a month or so, accumulate a thousand honor, and then act like a complete dick but still have more than a normal person who gets it for acting like they normally do.
Not that Honor means fuck all right now, but if they intend to use it in the future as currency/matchmaking/awards/etc, this system is completely hosed.
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On October 03 2012 06:02 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:57 cLutZ wrote:
Re: New Champs
Isn't it just that Riot seems to have no idea what is going on in their jungle? The problematic champs are ones that are supposed to be junglers (Diana, Jayce, Rengar) but have way too strong of scaling when put elsewhere. Its like they looked at Amumu and said, "Look a jungler can have good ratios without being OP" without realizing that lane Amumu would be a terror if he could actually farm (which he cannot). I don't think Diana or Jayce were intended as junglers. They were built to where they could jungle but if Riot gave those champions those abilities and thought, "this is the kit of a jungler, not a laner," then they have no real concept of their own game. Like, Diana's Q is completely worthless in jungle. Jayce has no reason to ever use ranged attacks in the jungle. I think Riot with some recent champions wanted to create characters that could fill more than one role to create characters who are "less binary." The problem is that it gives champions too much strength because they have to be really good to be capable of filling multiple roles at once. Jayce can poke, can initiate, and is an abusive laner. Rengar can jungle, can top, can be built AD or AP in either position. Diana can be more of an AP carry/assassin or more of an AP bruiser, she can mid, top, and jungle. I like the idea behind it. I just don't think Riot's ever going to be able to make those kinds of champion designs work without making the champion too strong. edit: Diana was only banned for regionals. Diana is not banned at worlds. She'll be available at S2. edit2: If I carry games and don't shit talk I tend to get honor from my teammates for friendly/teamwork and honor from my opponents. I've never gotten honor when I've lost a game so far lol.
I bolded the section that is absolutely true. Riot has only a passing understanding of their game, and in particular the jungle. This is clear by the champions they release having properties that they have explicitly disowned in the past:
I.E. Stealth, manaless+sustain, etc.
On October 03 2012 06:09 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:57 cLutZ wrote:
Re: New Champs
Isn't it just that Riot seems to have no idea what is going on in their jungle? The problematic champs are ones that are supposed to be junglers (Diana, Jayce, Rengar) but have way too strong of scaling when put elsewhere. Its like they looked at Amumu and said, "Look a jungler can have good ratios without being OP" without realizing that lane Amumu would be a terror if he could actually farm (which he cannot). I don't know how I feel about jungle designs. It's like, the ideal jungler for the meta is someone who can subsist on low gold (if they're ganking without getting kills, still helping but aren't useless) and have clearing power for getting the most gold out of the jungle. To that end, the champs whose designs fit this are low-gold tanks with high CC because they don't need items for damage (designed for CC or have high base damages like Skarner/Shy) and AoE. Any type of offensive bruiser type who wants damage items is better going to lane and getting gold farm (Rengar, for instance). Any type with high sustain can dominate top lane because sustain is godly there (saw this with WW/Udyr top for a while, kind of fell off, Lee still goes top a lot). I don't know how Riot can go about creating a "jungle only" champion. Used to be you need high sustain like WW or Nunu, but the new Jungle is so easy to clear past level 2. And playing an Assassin jungle like Shaco is just begging to get warded and starved out by a competent opponent. So either they keep making CC heavy, low damage scaling, tanky junglers, or they redesign the jungle again. Dunno.
Well, the jungle has many tradeoffs that are still relevant because of weak early levels. Like Amumu becomes a terror if you don't counterjungle him, but you can. If they wanted Diana and Rengar to be jungle champs (and knew how to design for the jungle) they would have made both 'W's have better base stats with worse scaling + made them much easier to harass in lane. Diana Q would have a mild slow (like undertow) but do much less damage. Rengar should never have been manaless for both top or jungle. ETC.
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On October 03 2012 06:24 Requizen wrote:
The big issue I have with Honor is that you can't lose any, from what I see. So you can act polite for a month or so, accumulate a thousand honor, and then act like a complete dick but still have more than a normal person who gets it for acting like they normally do.
Not that Honor means fuck all right now, but if they intend to use it in the future as currency/matchmaking/awards/etc, this system is completely hosed.
I don't think natural behavior changes that drastically, so you don't really need a super elastic system (as opposed to ELO). And if your system is making dicks act polite, well mission accomplished! Dicks aren't acting like dicks, and if they start acting like dicks again, they'll receive less "reward" over the course of that month compared to nice players/dicks acting like nice players. (i.e They'll still have 1000 at the end of the next month while the nice players have 2000).
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On October 03 2012 06:24 Requizen wrote:
The big issue I have with Honor is that you can't lose any, from what I see. So you can act polite for a month or so, accumulate a thousand honor, and then act like a complete dick but still have more than a normal person who gets it for acting like they normally do.
Not that Honor means fuck all right now, but if they intend to use it in the future as currency/matchmaking/awards/etc, this system is completely hosed.
I've seen a riot post say that your honor resets to 0 if you get punished by the tribunal, so it is loseable at least.
Edit: and who knows, maybe after acting polite for a month the guy will realize his winrate is much better due to his team not throwing games in his face and he'll keep it permenant
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On October 03 2012 06:06 Slayer91 wrote:
how about getting free elo
oh wait it works like that already because supports are op especially when the other dude is a little kid who refuses to ward because he called mid but was last pick
More often, they never play support so they have no idea how the lane dynamic works and if your ADC isn't a total pussy you can just go aggro when they blow cooldowns unnecessarily and kill them (especially since the default "fuck I guess I'm supporting" picks are soraka or blitzcrank).
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On October 03 2012 06:31 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 06:02 overt wrote:On October 03 2012 05:57 cLutZ wrote:
Re: New Champs
Isn't it just that Riot seems to have no idea what is going on in their jungle? The problematic champs are ones that are supposed to be junglers (Diana, Jayce, Rengar) but have way too strong of scaling when put elsewhere. Its like they looked at Amumu and said, "Look a jungler can have good ratios without being OP" without realizing that lane Amumu would be a terror if he could actually farm (which he cannot). I don't think Diana or Jayce were intended as junglers. They were built to where they could jungle but if Riot gave those champions those abilities and thought, "this is the kit of a jungler, not a laner," then they have no real concept of their own game. Like, Diana's Q is completely worthless in jungle. Jayce has no reason to ever use ranged attacks in the jungle. I think Riot with some recent champions wanted to create characters that could fill more than one role to create characters who are "less binary." The problem is that it gives champions too much strength because they have to be really good to be capable of filling multiple roles at once. Jayce can poke, can initiate, and is an abusive laner. Rengar can jungle, can top, can be built AD or AP in either position. Diana can be more of an AP carry/assassin or more of an AP bruiser, she can mid, top, and jungle. I like the idea behind it. I just don't think Riot's ever going to be able to make those kinds of champion designs work without making the champion too strong. edit: Diana was only banned for regionals. Diana is not banned at worlds. She'll be available at S2. edit2: If I carry games and don't shit talk I tend to get honor from my teammates for friendly/teamwork and honor from my opponents. I've never gotten honor when I've lost a game so far lol. I bolded the section that is absolutely true. Riot has only a passing understanding of their game, and in particular the jungle. This is clear by the champions they release having properties that they have explicitly disowned in the past: I.E. Stealth, manaless+sustain, etc.
I don't think this is a complete lack of understanding of their game as much as it is the lack of a single design vision for the game going forward. The balance people and the design people aren't 100% overlapping groups.
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On October 03 2012 06:34 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 06:24 Requizen wrote:
The big issue I have with Honor is that you can't lose any, from what I see. So you can act polite for a month or so, accumulate a thousand honor, and then act like a complete dick but still have more than a normal person who gets it for acting like they normally do.
Not that Honor means fuck all right now, but if they intend to use it in the future as currency/matchmaking/awards/etc, this system is completely hosed.
I've seen a riot post say that your honor resets to 0 if you get punished by the tribunal, so it is loseable at least. Edit: and who knows, maybe after acting polite for a month the guy will realize his winrate is much better due to his team not throwing games in his face and he'll keep it permenant
Wishful thinking, at least.
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On October 03 2012 06:41 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 06:31 cLutZ wrote:On October 03 2012 06:02 overt wrote:On October 03 2012 05:57 cLutZ wrote:
Re: New Champs
Isn't it just that Riot seems to have no idea what is going on in their jungle? The problematic champs are ones that are supposed to be junglers (Diana, Jayce, Rengar) but have way too strong of scaling when put elsewhere. Its like they looked at Amumu and said, "Look a jungler can have good ratios without being OP" without realizing that lane Amumu would be a terror if he could actually farm (which he cannot). I don't think Diana or Jayce were intended as junglers. They were built to where they could jungle but if Riot gave those champions those abilities and thought, "this is the kit of a jungler, not a laner," then they have no real concept of their own game. Like, Diana's Q is completely worthless in jungle. Jayce has no reason to ever use ranged attacks in the jungle. I think Riot with some recent champions wanted to create characters that could fill more than one role to create characters who are "less binary." The problem is that it gives champions too much strength because they have to be really good to be capable of filling multiple roles at once. Jayce can poke, can initiate, and is an abusive laner. Rengar can jungle, can top, can be built AD or AP in either position. Diana can be more of an AP carry/assassin or more of an AP bruiser, she can mid, top, and jungle. I like the idea behind it. I just don't think Riot's ever going to be able to make those kinds of champion designs work without making the champion too strong. edit: Diana was only banned for regionals. Diana is not banned at worlds. She'll be available at S2. edit2: If I carry games and don't shit talk I tend to get honor from my teammates for friendly/teamwork and honor from my opponents. I've never gotten honor when I've lost a game so far lol. I bolded the section that is absolutely true. Riot has only a passing understanding of their game, and in particular the jungle. This is clear by the champions they release having properties that they have explicitly disowned in the past: I.E. Stealth, manaless+sustain, etc. I don't think this is a complete lack of understanding of their game as much as it is the lack of a single design vision for the game going forward. The balance people and the design people aren't 100% overlapping groups.
They shouldn't be. Here's what should have happened when Diana and Regar went from the devs to the balance team.
Diana:
"Hey this is supposed to be a jungler?" What is with this great ranged harass and good scaling. /changed
Rengar:
"Wait this guy is manaless, with good burst, sustain, stealth, and a weird 1.0 AP ratio. Hmm..." /changed
The point is, the balance team should weed out these things pretty easily because they already have champs like these champs that are problematic. There is no reason Rengar's 'W' needs to give him stats + heal when empowered, he would be fine without that. Diana's Q on release was much too strong. Jayce is kind of designed to be a lane bully, but its unclear whether Riot wanted to create a lane bully (if they did they should have made his ratios much lower), OR if they wanted a jungler (ala the release video) (in which case why does he have good range?), OR if he was supposed to be a hybrid (in which case why is he not bad at being a bruiser?).
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On October 03 2012 05:42 Slayer91 wrote:
I never read dravens lore
I thought the mustache was all the personality you'd need
He's a cross between a professional wrestler with all his fanbase and an executioner. With less frills and flounces and more axes and ego.
I got honored for "helpful" after a game where I told our Draven that his E stops Leona's is she ever tries to engage on him.
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I want to roleplay in every game and see how much honor that gives me.
MY STINGER IS READY
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No oddone,no froggen and no smash stream these days.
So sad,it's hard to procrastinate in these conditions.
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On October 03 2012 06:52 Requizen wrote:
I want to roleplay in every game and see how much honor that gives me.
MY STINGER IS READY
It worked for me. Some pomp and a For DEMACIA should get you at least one, assuming you are not with a group of tight-arses.
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This should be named
[Patch 1.0.0.148: HONOR] General Discussion
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On October 03 2012 06:54 TheKefka wrote:
No oddone,no froggen and no smash stream these days.
So sad,it's hard to procrastinate in these conditions.
It's even harder when you don't even have to procrastinate and you actively want to watch them because you were too busy to do so a while ago 
Also I've found out that LoL is a pretty fun game when you get over all the retards and the griefing and focus on laughing at everything everytime. You even make "friends"! (no sarcasm)
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Yea when you stop taking things super serious you realize how fun things can become ;P Just take in the moment.
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On October 03 2012 05:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:42 little fancy wrote:
LOL so many ass-kissers around here since this honor system was introduced. "gl hf" ,"gg wp" and "nice move" everywhere. I bet those people would have yelled each other to death before. I wonder how long peace will last. ...that's the whole point of it. having the earnest meaning behind these actions would require no reward, but by making it achievement based, they're incentivizing people to not be douchebags. you can call it ass-kissing if you like, but the result on your experience is still a positive so why in the fuck are you complaining about people being gm?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't complain. It's just that I absolutely do not trust the peace. People that were real douches before won't be fair and nice players now. I give this a few weeks until they fall back into old habits.
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my personal list of "fix (almost) every problem I have with LoL"
Nerf magic resist items pretty much across the board, primarily late-game ones
Remove Infinity Edge, or remake it as a 2k gold item that gives damage and crit damage or something
Make the gold gains on jungle creeps way bigger <- gold gains being the increase they get in value after not being killed for a while.
Add some more ways of removing wards/detecting stealth
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EPT
