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On October 04 2012 22:31 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 21:06 CrimsonLotus wrote:When a single champion put of 104 gets used in over 50% of the games something has to be done. I think the "holy trinity" of AD carries is just too strong early game compared to all the others. it has a lot more to do with his mobility than anything else i hope for season 3 they reduce the blink/dash range of everone's skills by like 25 or 50. just a tiny bit, but enough to make it so non-gap-closing champs still have a chance in season 3 about kat - does AP Sion do well against her?
Probably not well enough to warrant picking ap sion. Well, you can snowball your team I guess, I doubt Kat can stop Sion from roaming.
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On October 04 2012 18:55 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 17:00 Cuddle wrote:
I don't agree with Diana ripping apart Kat. I think both can lose the lane depending on their knowledge of the match up.
QEW is extremely strong vs. Diana becuase the movementspeed from W makes it ridiculously easy to dodge Diana Q. If she tries to hit you with Q before you jump her, just jump over it, QW and get away. Diana is annoying in that she has an easy way to stop your ultimate but as with everything with Kataraina, you have to wait for them to use it before you ult.
QEW and run away dodging the Q. If she does nothing more, you won the trade big. If she pulls you back in when you try to run away you ult. If she runs away from ult you come out ahead. If she stays, you W again after ult and then get away with a very good trade. As long as you dodge the Q there's no way you can lose the trade imo. You're not going to 100-0 her and it is never the goal with Kat in lane, against any champ. The reason she is strong is because you can trade well and get out so easy.
If you headbutt every Q, then yes, you are screwed. Kat can never shunpo to Diana if she has Q up. I don't think the match is completely unwinnable for Kat but it favors Diana for sure. As Kat you can wait for Diana to farm minions with Q and then jump to her but if jungler is near mid it's risky. If Diana has Q up and you shunpo to Diana you will die. What kind of Diana's do you play against that miss point blank Qs? Kats W isn't significant enough to let her dodge a Diana Q after you shunpo to her.
I've had no problem (not 100% but good enough) dodging Q after shunpoing in. Admittedly I play at low elo so it might it says more about the opponent than the match up. I guess for less skilled players it's difficult to hit Q because after shunpo Kat end up behind you, she never take the same route back and moves really fast.
I guess it's also a bit of mind games involved. If Diana reacts but popping W and taking a step back (instead of using Q instantly) and uses Q to catch you when she realizes you're running away, you got enough time to dodge. There's really no dodging at point blank, just misses and hesitation. 
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Hey, I know this is pretty random but I can at least give it a try. I'm a EU player and I now reside in Japan for the following 2 months, hence my ping to Europe is 300 and it's rather unplayable and I do love LOL. I was wondering if there is any way to somehow get access to the Korean server, or if anyone by any chance has access to it and would like an elo boost or such there for free, my max on EU is 2.2k and I'm an avid member of the Liquidparty channel and I just want to play the game on decent ping =) Well can always hope for something.
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On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous.
But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument
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On October 04 2012 23:15 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 04 2012 21:43 epoc wrote:
I don't get it. What makes dfg op? Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous. But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument
DFG gives you 80 ap....
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On October 04 2012 23:15 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 04 2012 21:43 epoc wrote:
I don't get it. What makes dfg op? Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous. But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument
AP is so last week. Fiddle ult does 1500 magic damage with like a 2.25 AP ratio.
With 20 mpen to a 50 mr target fiddle does 1500*100/(150-20)=~1150 damage
To do that much damage with AP instead fiddle needs to have like (1150-1500*100/150)/2.25=~66.7 AP
DFG's active is almost free. How much AP do you need to equal that?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 04 2012 23:15 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 04 2012 21:43 epoc wrote:
I don't get it. What makes dfg op? Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous. But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument
Matter of cost-efficiency. 25% current HP on a, say, 1500 HP target is 375 damage. The equivalent AP to produce that kind of an addition to a champ's burst is extremely high.
Though TBH the item also gave this before the buff (and actually did more damage in all cases involving a reasonable amount of AP). It was also more cost-effective before the buff overall, given that the buff traded 12 Mp5 for 20 more AP on the item for only costing 10 gold more. Probably the most influential real buff to the item was the 100 range buff to the item (750 range is WAY more practical to use than 650 range--tbh I don't think the range increase needed to be that big and I think Riot underestimated it's impact by a long shot).
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On October 04 2012 23:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 23:15 epoc wrote:On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 04 2012 21:43 epoc wrote:
I don't get it. What makes dfg op? Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous. But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument Matter of cost-efficiency. 25% current HP on a, say, 1500 HP target is 375 damage. The equivalent AP to produce that kind of an addition to a champ's burst is extremely high. Though TBH the item also gave this before the buff (and actually did more damage in all cases involving a reasonable amount of AP). It was also more cost-effective before the buff overall, given that the buff traded 12 Mp5 for 20 more AP on the item for only costing 10 gold more. Probably the most influential real buff to the item was the 100 range buff to the item (750 range is WAY more practical to use than 650 range--tbh I don't think the range increase needed to be that big and I think Riot underestimated it's impact by a long shot).
A lot of people felt like DFG got nerfed with that change.
Opinions just changed on the item.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 04 2012 23:29 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 23:25 TheYango wrote:On October 04 2012 23:15 epoc wrote:On October 04 2012 22:05 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 04 2012 21:43 epoc wrote:
I don't get it. What makes dfg op? Let's see: It gives burst AP carries an extra burst nuke that scales with their AP, easily allowing many of them to 100%-->0% where they couldn't necessarily do so before. Also gives them a huge amount of CDR, has a decently cheap build path for what it offers, especially considering it begins to pay for itself depending on how long you keep Kage's (not very long usually). It's too much for too little gold essentially, and the damage is pretty ridiculous. But more ap gives you more dmg to 100-0 them too. I don't see your argument Matter of cost-efficiency. 25% current HP on a, say, 1500 HP target is 375 damage. The equivalent AP to produce that kind of an addition to a champ's burst is extremely high. Though TBH the item also gave this before the buff (and actually did more damage in all cases involving a reasonable amount of AP). It was also more cost-effective before the buff overall, given that the buff traded 12 Mp5 for 20 more AP on the item for only costing 10 gold more. Probably the most influential real buff to the item was the 100 range buff to the item (750 range is WAY more practical to use than 650 range--tbh I don't think the range increase needed to be that big and I think Riot underestimated it's impact by a long shot). A lot of people felt like DFG got nerfed with that change. Opinions just changed on the item.
Again, IMO the range change actually outweighs any of the other changes to the item. 100 range boost makes the item WAY more practical to use in pretty much all circumstances.
650 range was appropriate when the AP pool was mostly designed around engaging at that range or lower. The vast majority of AP carry releases for a long time now are expected to have an engagement range much longer than that.
Riot in general tends to underestimate the effect of range changes. Champions have been wrecked entirely by range nerfs on the order of ~50 because Riot underestimates how drastically this can affect things like lane matchups and combat ability.
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On October 04 2012 22:49 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 22:31 gtrsrs wrote:On October 04 2012 21:06 CrimsonLotus wrote:When a single champion put of 104 gets used in over 50% of the games something has to be done. I think the "holy trinity" of AD carries is just too strong early game compared to all the others. it has a lot more to do with his mobility than anything else i hope for season 3 they reduce the blink/dash range of everone's skills by like 25 or 50. just a tiny bit, but enough to make it so non-gap-closing champs still have a chance in season 3 about kat - does AP Sion do well against her? Probably not well enough to warrant picking ap sion. Well, you can snowball your team I guess, I doubt Kat can stop Sion from roaming.
cho'gath mid is what you're looking for, dismantles kat so hard you will wonder why you were ever scared of this champ
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Before you paid 600g for 5 AP, 5% CDR, and 5 MP5, but you had to buy a Fiendish Codex. The item was basically made only useable for Veigar, since the Codex helps his laning mana.
Now you pay 975g for 15 AP, and 15% CDR. Plus you can build it with non-crap items, plus the active got a huge range buff for burst casters with more range (Gragas).
Assuming you never cared about the MP5, not only is the item cheaper overall, the combining is now more cost effective, and the active is more useable by a lot more champions.
Since it gives 80 AP, there's like no reason to build say Rylais or Wota for midgame fights, since it gives you the same amount of damage on your spells, plus arguably better utility in that instead of sustaining/kiting, you just instagib one guy and turn the fight into 5v4.
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So. Many. Dravens.
And most of them are terrible 
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On October 04 2012 23:32 Glaceau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 22:49 h3r1n6 wrote:On October 04 2012 22:31 gtrsrs wrote:On October 04 2012 21:06 CrimsonLotus wrote:When a single champion put of 104 gets used in over 50% of the games something has to be done. I think the "holy trinity" of AD carries is just too strong early game compared to all the others. it has a lot more to do with his mobility than anything else i hope for season 3 they reduce the blink/dash range of everone's skills by like 25 or 50. just a tiny bit, but enough to make it so non-gap-closing champs still have a chance in season 3 about kat - does AP Sion do well against her? Probably not well enough to warrant picking ap sion. Well, you can snowball your team I guess, I doubt Kat can stop Sion from roaming. cho'gath mid is what you're looking for, dismantles kat so hard you will wonder why you were ever scared of this champ
really? I'm just picking up Kat now and I gotta admit, I don't really see how Cho would dismantle her.
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On October 04 2012 23:49 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 23:32 Glaceau wrote:On October 04 2012 22:49 h3r1n6 wrote:On October 04 2012 22:31 gtrsrs wrote:On October 04 2012 21:06 CrimsonLotus wrote:When a single champion put of 104 gets used in over 50% of the games something has to be done. I think the "holy trinity" of AD carries is just too strong early game compared to all the others. it has a lot more to do with his mobility than anything else i hope for season 3 they reduce the blink/dash range of everone's skills by like 25 or 50. just a tiny bit, but enough to make it so non-gap-closing champs still have a chance in season 3 about kat - does AP Sion do well against her? Probably not well enough to warrant picking ap sion. Well, you can snowball your team I guess, I doubt Kat can stop Sion from roaming. cho'gath mid is what you're looking for, dismantles kat so hard you will wonder why you were ever scared of this champ really? I'm just picking up Kat now and I gotta admit, I don't really see how Cho would dismantle her.
Actually, yes, Cho should be pretty hard for Kat. I only went against an about evenly farmed Cho after my enemies swapped lanes so I don't know how the early levels go, but it was impossible for me to do anything against him. He deals good damage, is tanky and has sustain. And his burst is way stronger for 1v1s than Kats.
Downside is of course that he'd have to be fairly deep into the lane so he should be rather gankable. I don't really think Kat can do much for the first few levels either.
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On October 04 2012 23:33 xes wrote:
Before you paid 600g for 5 AP, 5% CDR, and 5 MP5, but you had to buy a Fiendish Codex. The item was basically made only useable for Veigar, since the Codex helps his laning mana.
Now you pay 975g for 15 AP, and 15% CDR. Plus you can build it with non-crap items, plus the active got a huge range buff for burst casters with more range (Gragas).
Assuming you never cared about the MP5, not only is the item cheaper overall, the combining is now more cost effective, and the active is more useable by a lot more champions.
Since it gives 80 AP, there's like no reason to build say Rylais or Wota for midgame fights, since it gives you the same amount of damage on your spells, plus arguably better utility in that instead of sustaining/kiting, you just instagib one guy and turn the fight into 5v4.
You'd make a good presidential candidate. Not only do you fail to show the cons of the change, you're numbers are also wrong.
V1.0.0.139:
Now builds out of Blasting Wand and Kage's Lucky Pick.
Total cost reduced to 2600 from 2610.
Now grants 80 ability power and 15% cooldown reduction, instead of 60 ability power, 12 MP5, and 15% cooldown reduction.
Active cast range increased to 750 from 650.
Active base damage changed to 25% + 4% per 100 AP of target's current health, instead of 30% + 3.5%.
Tooltip now updates dynamically.
Maybe that's release DFG.
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cho vs kat has always been a matter of who gets a small lead early imo
if cho gets ahead then he just gets super tanky and ignores kat completely, but if kat stays a little ahead of him then she literally runs circles around him in lane. though all of her base damages were hit pretty hard so i'm not sure if she could form a large enough advantage before level 7-9 or so to win the lane now.
the way i see it, is that cho is the one who has to play reactively to the kat player because she has the range advantage + won't get hit by any of his spells if shes just running around farming
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disclaimer: never played either champ in mid, and not a mid player, so grain of salt and all that.
with the rupture buff, it seems to me like the instant kat shunpos within rupture range, it's game over for kat.
edit: and she can effectively only use bblade to harrass cho at any point in time. Any time she gets closer to use either ult or her other skill (i think w?) she's within scream range.
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On October 05 2012 00:14 barbsq wrote:
disclaimer: never played either champ in mid, and not a mid player, so grain of salt and all that.
with the rupture buff, it seems to me like the instant kat shunpos within rupture range, it's game over for kat.
na, you still wouldn't be able to land it because if she's shunpoing, she's also sinister steeling which gives her that retarded mini-ghost, which should let her get away from rupture. Kat's animations right now are just all so fast, I don't see how Cho's going to hit anything unless Kat derps at playing footsies and gets hit by feral screams for no reason.
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On October 05 2012 00:17 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 00:14 barbsq wrote:
disclaimer: never played either champ in mid, and not a mid player, so grain of salt and all that.
with the rupture buff, it seems to me like the instant kat shunpos within rupture range, it's game over for kat. na, you still wouldn't be able to land it because if she's shunpoing, she's also sinister steeling which gives her that retarded mini-ghost, which should let her get away from rupture. Kat's animations right now are just all so fast, I don't see how Cho's going to hit anything unless Kat derps at playing footsies and gets hit by feral screams for no reason.
ah, didn't realize that, lol. If she can still run out of rupture after a shunpo, then idk.
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EPT
