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[Patch 1.0.0.145: Rengar] General Discussion - Page 183

Forum Index > LoL General
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
August 29 2012 19:17 GMT
#3641
The fundamental problem still comes back to the fact that a 2-3 week patch cycle is simply too fast to allow for real innovation and advancement.

The incentive to innovate just isn't that high when 2-3 weeks between patches means you don't have a lot of time to really flesh out a new strategy before the game is destabilized by changes/new hero, and the gains from finding a strategy that effectively counters the FotM isn't that high when Riot nerfs those things so proactively anyway.
Moderator
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
August 29 2012 19:17 GMT
#3642
was AP janna really so one-sided that it needed a zephyr nerf to bring it in line with the rest of the AP champs?

i didn't play in the AP soraka/lulu everywhere days so i can't comment on that.

the alistar nerfs make sense because his jungling was really good. not because they want to shoehorn him into support.
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
August 29 2012 19:17 GMT
#3643
On August 30 2012 04:13 JackDino wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2012 04:11 thenexusp wrote:
On August 30 2012 04:02 obesechicken13 wrote:
Once you find someone OP, you tell NO ONE. This way it'll take riot too long to figure out and you can play that champ as much as you want. Pro games are stale in any game.

Issue is then no one will ever let you play Nunu top "omg why you troll pick"

Shut up and watch noob!

*xXMidOrFeedXx has left champion selection and you have been placed back into the matchmaking queue*
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 29 2012 19:18 GMT
#3644
On August 30 2012 04:17 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem still comes back to the fact that a 2-3 week patch cycle is simply too fast to allow for real innovation and advancement.

The incentive to innovate just isn't that high when 2-3 weeks between patches means you don't have a lot of time to really flesh out a new strategy before the game is destabilized by changes/new hero, and the gains from finding a strategy that effectively counters the FotM isn't that high when Riot nerfs those things so proactively anyway.

Battlecruiser operational!
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-29 19:19:56
August 29 2012 19:19 GMT
#3645
Riot actually bases a lot of their decisions on what the pros say afaik.

Even if a nerf isnt necessary for you, if it annoys a few pros, the game will change.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Chiharu Harukaze
Profile Joined September 2011
12112 Posts
August 29 2012 19:35 GMT
#3646
On August 30 2012 04:10 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2012 04:06 Seuss wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:40 misirlou wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:14 Flakes wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:00 kainzero wrote:
interesting post on reddit regarding riot's balance and their tendency to use the nerf stick as much as possible when characters don't fit predetermined roles within the meta.

i generally agree with that.

i still don't know why they nerfed janna's W AP ratio unless you simply didn't want her going mid where she wasn't even dominant anyway. why not allow it?

Well, Janna has a lot of pure utility even without her ratios, so I guess Riot wanted to give her the Alistar treatment.
On the other hand, utility + good ratios is also what makes Gragas so powerful, so I think it's just a matter of devs keeping champions confined to an "intended role"
Of course that never stopped toplane Udyr


the thing is confining every champion to a role cuts diversity and metagame changes. The game is pretty predictable and stale. Some champions had too much utility for the good ratios because others we compare them to were kept with good ratios and nerfed in utility. What im trying to say is, instead of cutting down the depth of the game by nerfing lulu/jana/soraka mid, malphite/udyr top or soon to be rengar ap, buff other champions that would be just as good/better dmg wise with slighty better utility than they have now. There is no problem making omfg OP champs to today's standards if tomorrow champs are all OP


I don't think Riot nerfed Soraka/Lulu/Janna mid because they broke the meta, but because in a very significant number of matchups there were limited, if any, counterplay options. Lulu in particular was incredibly abusive because Glitterlance cost very little mana and had an incredibly good AP ratio initially. Despite the nerfs you can still send Lulu or Janna mid or top, they just aren't as one-sided as they were.

What's limiting the meta right now isn't Riot nerfing meta-breaking champions, but the fact that it's easier to mimic than to innovate. Your typical team of 5 has enough to worry about in terms of developing their teamwork, cohesion, and fundamental mechanics without throwing an experimental composition on top of it. Your average solo queue pub is typically more interested in gaining Elo than finding out whether some random stranger's team comp idea is any good. It's just easier to watch what the top teams are doing and learn from them than to forge a new path.

In my opinion low level players do just as much innovating as higher level players.

The real question is though, do low Elo players understand what they create? I've said before that Azubu's low econ play can be compared to a low Elo game but how many low Elo players would recognise the scenarios that they create? When Morde ran rampart in low Elo before his nerfs (along with Gunblade), would any of them realise why Morde was effective?

On August 30 2012 04:17 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem still comes back to the fact that a 2-3 week patch cycle is simply too fast to allow for real innovation and advancement.

The incentive to innovate just isn't that high when 2-3 weeks between patches means you don't have a lot of time to really flesh out a new strategy before the game is destabilized by changes/new hero, and the gains from finding a strategy that effectively counters the FotM isn't that high when Riot nerfs those things so proactively anyway.

There's also the problem that many players still don't even fully understand or can play the existing champion pool anyway. A lot of the top players are very content to just sit on their current pool of champions instead of going out of their way to go learn something new. Know just enough not to get banned out and then just play whatever. Top laners are probably the most guilty of this when theoretically they should have the biggest champion pool.

Also, happy 10k and Batlecruiser!
It's like, "Is the Federation's Mobile Suit some kind of monster?"
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
August 29 2012 19:38 GMT
#3647
On August 30 2012 04:17 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem still comes back to the fact that a 2-3 week patch cycle is simply too fast to allow for real innovation and advancement.

The incentive to innovate just isn't that high when 2-3 weeks between patches means you don't have a lot of time to really flesh out a new strategy before the game is destabilized by changes/new hero, and the gains from finding a strategy that effectively counters the FotM isn't that high when Riot nerfs those things so proactively anyway.


There's that, and there's also the fact that the vast majority of LoL isn't arranged 5s. There are plenty of people experimenting with individual champions and builds, but unless there's an incredible abuse case (which will invariably be nerfed) they're constrained by trying to fit them into the current meta. If arranged 5s were more popular/common/taken seriously there'd be a much greater opportunity for innovation.


Don't Yamato me bro!
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17082 Posts
August 29 2012 19:39 GMT
#3648
On August 30 2012 04:17 TheYango wrote:
The fundamental problem still comes back to the fact that a 2-3 week patch cycle is simply too fast to allow for real innovation and advancement.

The incentive to innovate just isn't that high when 2-3 weeks between patches means you don't have a lot of time to really flesh out a new strategy before the game is destabilized by changes/new hero, and the gains from finding a strategy that effectively counters the FotM isn't that high when Riot nerfs those things so proactively anyway.


Congrats on 10k!
Moderator
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-29 19:55:20
August 29 2012 19:55 GMT
#3649
Ocra is reporting.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
August 29 2012 19:57 GMT
#3650
yango's 10k post is the same as the other 9999 - pure quality.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
August 29 2012 19:58 GMT
#3651
Makes me sad to know im going to lose my vessel eventually. -_-

eitherway congrats!
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
August 29 2012 20:16 GMT
#3652
On August 30 2012 04:58 arb wrote:
Makes me sad to know im going to lose my vessel eventually. -_-

eitherway congrats!


An arbiter that wants to be a vessel.

Talk about identity crisis. :O
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
August 29 2012 20:16 GMT
#3653
I can't wait to get rid of this stoopid icon. want my hydralisk back plz.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 29 2012 20:20 GMT
#3654
On August 29 2012 22:49 Alaric wrote:
If I understood it well, Riot's going to take rankings at August 28th for season 2 rewards, so if for example I play another one and drop from 1400 to 1388 now, it won't impact said rewards, right?


OMG is this true?! Then I don't have to play any ranked at all. I am at 1521 at the moment. hue.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 29 2012 20:21 GMT
#3655
On August 30 2012 04:17 kainzero wrote:
was AP janna really so one-sided that it needed a zephyr nerf to bring it in line with the rest of the AP champs?

i didn't play in the AP soraka/lulu everywhere days so i can't comment on that.

the alistar nerfs make sense because his jungling was really good. not because they want to shoehorn him into support.


I still don't think the Janna or Soraka Nerfs (except the heal armor one) were warranted. Lulu yes, but she was overtuned like nearly every release champ these days.

The problem with the Ali nerfs is they didn't nerf the problems with his jungle (gank city). They just made his already terrible farming even worse.
Freeeeeeedom
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 29 2012 20:23 GMT
#3656
Thanks for the tips on the minimap thing. I will try them all....

I do think it is easier to look at the minimap when I am jungling though, because there is little danger of myself dying while clearing jungle camps. It's particularly stressful to look at the minimap when, say, I am playing Cass vs Ahri and we just hit 6 and she can all-in me at any time. Perhaps I should just try to develop some peripheral vision.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
August 29 2012 20:25 GMT
#3657
On August 30 2012 05:20 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 22:49 Alaric wrote:
If I understood it well, Riot's going to take rankings at August 28th for season 2 rewards, so if for example I play another one and drop from 1400 to 1388 now, it won't impact said rewards, right?


OMG is this true?! Then I don't have to play any ranked at all. I am at 1521 at the moment. hue.

On August 29 2012 23:40 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 22:49 Alaric wrote:
If I understood it well, Riot's going to take rankings at August 28th for season 2 rewards, so if for example I play another one and drop from 1400 to 1388 now, it won't impact said rewards, right?


Yesterday...? That was the fake leak. Season 2 isn't over yet, and won't be until the finals in October. Even after it's "over" there will probably be a month or so before Season 3 actually starts and the rankings reset.

It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
August 29 2012 20:38 GMT
#3658
On August 30 2012 05:20 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2012 22:49 Alaric wrote:
If I understood it well, Riot's going to take rankings at August 28th for season 2 rewards, so if for example I play another one and drop from 1400 to 1388 now, it won't impact said rewards, right?


OMG is this true?! Then I don't have to play any ranked at all. I am at 1521 at the moment. hue.

Tell me if you decay lol.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
Hakanfrog
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden690 Posts
August 29 2012 20:38 GMT
#3659
On August 30 2012 04:10 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2012 04:06 Seuss wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:40 misirlou wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:14 Flakes wrote:
On August 30 2012 03:00 kainzero wrote:
interesting post on reddit regarding riot's balance and their tendency to use the nerf stick as much as possible when characters don't fit predetermined roles within the meta.

i generally agree with that.

i still don't know why they nerfed janna's W AP ratio unless you simply didn't want her going mid where she wasn't even dominant anyway. why not allow it?

Well, Janna has a lot of pure utility even without her ratios, so I guess Riot wanted to give her the Alistar treatment.
On the other hand, utility + good ratios is also what makes Gragas so powerful, so I think it's just a matter of devs keeping champions confined to an "intended role"
Of course that never stopped toplane Udyr


the thing is confining every champion to a role cuts diversity and metagame changes. The game is pretty predictable and stale. Some champions had too much utility for the good ratios because others we compare them to were kept with good ratios and nerfed in utility. What im trying to say is, instead of cutting down the depth of the game by nerfing lulu/jana/soraka mid, malphite/udyr top or soon to be rengar ap, buff other champions that would be just as good/better dmg wise with slighty better utility than they have now. There is no problem making omfg OP champs to today's standards if tomorrow champs are all OP


I don't think Riot nerfed Soraka/Lulu/Janna mid because they broke the meta, but because in a very significant number of matchups there were limited, if any, counterplay options. Lulu in particular was incredibly abusive because Glitterlance cost very little mana and had an incredibly good AP ratio initially. Despite the nerfs you can still send Lulu or Janna mid or top, they just aren't as one-sided as they were.

What's limiting the meta right now isn't Riot nerfing meta-breaking champions, but the fact that it's easier to mimic than to innovate. Your typical team of 5 has enough to worry about in terms of developing their teamwork, cohesion, and fundamental mechanics without throwing an experimental composition on top of it. Your average solo queue pub is typically more interested in gaining Elo than finding out whether some random stranger's team comp idea is any good. It's just easier to watch what the top teams are doing and learn from them than to forge a new path.

In my opinion low level players do just as much innovating as higher level players.


Low level players do "innovating" stuff because they can´t see why it´s bad. If you call building bloodrazors on MF innovating then sure, they are fucking geniuses.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-29 20:49:49
August 29 2012 20:46 GMT
#3660
On August 30 2012 05:38 HazMat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2012 05:20 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 29 2012 22:49 Alaric wrote:
If I understood it well, Riot's going to take rankings at August 28th for season 2 rewards, so if for example I play another one and drop from 1400 to 1388 now, it won't impact said rewards, right?


OMG is this true?! Then I don't have to play any ranked at all. I am at 1521 at the moment. hue.

Tell me if you decay lol.


I decayed once already. I played a couple and maintained my Elo. Hue. I think Elo decays once a month? I am probably good for another 2 weeks :3
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
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