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Nope. If you're not 20-0 every game after 30 minutes of practice he isn't viable.
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On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe.
So if someone kills you multiple times with a champ that's weaker early and stronger than you later on, the champ goes up 2 levels on you and has 20 cs than you and you think you should still be able to farm fine against her?
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On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons:
1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues.
2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that.
3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game.
the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue).
Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt.
wow, what a big fucking wall of text.
edit:
On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe.
if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son.
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On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son.
Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut?
Edit: In fact I don't see the point you make with any of your examples. Yorick is god awful past the laning phase, that's universally agreed so trying to say he becomes and impossible force? After laning both his w and e are pathetic nukes, 1 doesn't scale, 1 scales poorly and is also magic. He has 1 normal nuke and an ult that realistically is not that great. Riven and Vlad both have very bad matchups, there's no magically way to play where you can always do fine.
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On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut?
you do know how his w works, right?
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On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son.
Riot has been moving away from the "good early, okay mid, bad late" (for lack of a better term) characters because they are too overwhelming for lower elo players. That's why pantheon, twitch, and evelynn have been nerfed numerous times.
Personally I don't really understand how yorick is still a champion at this stage in the game. He's so ridiculous top, I don't think I've ever beaten him in lane.
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On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right?
So having a spell that heals and being removes cc means you never lose lane? You should sell lessons to pros, I don't think any of them has figured out your secret yet.
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On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? You know no one plays him and he loses almost every lane right?
yes, he rarely wins lanes, but he never loses lanes either. A w max gangplank is extraordinarly difficult to prevent from farming. Then he comes from laning with wits + triforce + double gp10, despite losing lane, and is capable of keeping up in gold with pretty much all other top laners. That I have a bit of a problem with. Also, lol @ you actually thinking that ppl not playing him is a legitimate argument towards his gameplay design.
Regarding vlad and riven. Riven's can get by nearly any lane with e max and is able to consistently farm. I've been told numerous times as riven that the champ i'm going against is a 'hard counter', and I just e-max, farm, and win teamfights midgame. I'll preface vlad by saying that riot has actually come out and basically said 'our bad, yeah vlad is bad champion design', but anyways, you can adjust runes/masteries such that vlad withstand his bad matchups and isn't actually affected negatively by doing so.
edit: lol, ok, ninja edit. fine. I didn't really want to get into specifics about specific champions, since I figured something like this would crop up, I just wanted to get the point across that the champion type that I was outlining exists.
oh yeah, i forgot to address yorick. If you think having 2x AD carries or having 2 lives on your AP carry is bad late game, then I don't know what to say to you.
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how is yorick universally considered bad past laning phase? He has a very respectable lategame as long as you haven't built stupid shit on him like manamune, his ult is very powerful in teamfights with pretty much no real way to play against it.
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On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? So having a spell that heals and being removes cc means you never lose lane? You should sell lessons to pros, I don't think any of them has figured out your secret yet.
Its mana cost never increases all game. Acquire 1-2 GP5's, build a little more tank, and play for GP's strong lategame because you'll never be killed in lane. Even if you come out down on CS, your ult should probably have netted you some assists and your lategame is pretty damn strong as GP once you get tanky enough.
And regardless of how you feel about GP, picking out one of his examples but not the idea is pointless. You're attempting to nitpick a small idea in a large post for the sake of... what exactly?
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On August 23 2012 10:58 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? You know no one plays him and he loses almost every lane right? yes, he rarely wins lanes, but he never loses lanes either. A w max gangplank is extraordinarly difficult to prevent from farming. Then he comes from laning with wits + triforce + double gp10, despite losing lane, and is capable of keeping up in gold with pretty much all other top laners. That I have a bit of a problem with. Also, lol @ you actually thinking that ppl not playing him is a legitimate argument towards his gameplay design. Regarding vlad and riven. Riven's can get by nearly any lane with e max and is able to consistently farm. I've been told numerous times as riven that the champ i'm going against is a 'hard counter', and I just e-max, farm, and win teamfights midgame. I'll preface vlad by saying that riot has actually come out and basically said 'our bad, yeah vlad is bad champion design', but anyways, you can adjust runes/masteries such that vlad withstand his bad matchups and isn't actually affected negatively by doing so. edit: lol, ok, ninja edit. fine. I didn't really want to get into specifics about specific champions, since I figured something like this would crop up, I just wanted to get the point across that the champion type that I was outlining exists.
The ppl telling you such counters riven are pretty clueless about riven to begin with. Rumble/olaf/ken/malph are most commonly mentionned.
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On August 23 2012 10:59 koreasilver wrote:
how is yorick universally considered bad past laning phase? He has a very respectable lategame as long as you haven't built stupid shit on him like manamune, his ult is very powerful in teamfights with pretty much no real way to play against it.
wtf? 98% of all yoricks, at any level of play, build a manamune. i will say that i see people RUSHING manamune, which is puzzling. but it is a core item for a reason.
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On August 23 2012 10:48 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Riot has been moving away from the "good early, okay mid, bad late" (for lack of a better term) characters because they are too overwhelming for lower elo players. That's why pantheon, twitch, and evelynn have been nerfed numerous times. Personally I don't really understand how yorick is still a champion at this stage in the game. He's so ridiculous top, I don't think I've ever beaten him in lane.
I've been able to manage him with renekton, to an extent, and have had some success with others if I get a few good jungle ganks. I've also had a lot of success with xin pre-remake, I don't know if it still works at this point tho. Either way, even if you are able to deal with him early game, he just herp-de-derp ults one of his carries and gg, you lose teamfights anyways. I think it's an absolute godsend that as few people play him as they do.
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Yorick is a gentlemen's ban.
Only douchebags play him.
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On August 23 2012 11:07 Craton wrote:
Yorick is a gentlemen's ban.
Only douchebags play him.
I actually agree. Anybody who plays top lane knows how absolutely stupid he is to play against, so we just all silently acknowledge it and choose not to play it in hopes everybody agrees to the same silent set of principles.
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On August 23 2012 11:04 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:59 koreasilver wrote:
how is yorick universally considered bad past laning phase? He has a very respectable lategame as long as you haven't built stupid shit on him like manamune, his ult is very powerful in teamfights with pretty much no real way to play against it. wtf? 98% of all yoricks, at any level of play, build a manamune. i will say that i see people RUSHING manamune, which is puzzling. but it is a core item for a reason.
I used to think that, but now I think it sucks. And recently with the little spurt of Yorick picks in high level games, I've been seeing more and more games where manamune isn't built at all. After playing Yorick a lot the past few weeks, I realized that I would almost always rather just not build tear at all and put that money into building up something else like glacial, a negatron, or phage. Building tear just dumps money into something that doesn't help at all in midgame teamfights, and even after finishing it into manumune after having a respectable amount of charges in tear, it doesn't make up for how useless that bloody thing has been all game.
Building up to trinity is far more useful.
edit: I'm a douchebag.
edit2: If you can't manage your mana on Yorick without tear, then you're playing him wrong.
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i also think that part of the manamune thing comes from the fact that at release, yorick did legitimately need a tear to be able to do anything. His mana costs used to be so prohibitively high that it was really challenging to do anything without dumping a large amount of gold into getting more mana. It would be nice if they would revert it back to that time.
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On August 23 2012 11:01 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? So having a spell that heals and being removes cc means you never lose lane? You should sell lessons to pros, I don't think any of them has figured out your secret yet. Its mana cost never increases all game. Acquire 1-2 GP5's, build a little more tank, and play for GP's strong lategame because you'll never be killed in lane. Even if you come out down on CS, your ult should probably have netted you some assists and your lategame is pretty damn strong as GP once you get tanky enough. And regardless of how you feel about GP, picking out one of his examples but not the idea is pointless. You're attempting to nitpick a small idea in a large post for the sake of... what exactly?
I reason that none of the champs he thinks "never loses lane if played right" are such a thing which goes against the entire premise of his argument. How is that nitpicking a small idea? People ALWAYS point out all of the things a champ has in their kit when they try to say he or she is good. Any1 can reason any champ is good if you do that. The reality is GP sucks right now and no one plays him, so I want to point of the mistake of saying he's "a problematic champ" when it's clear he's not in a good place.
On August 23 2012 11:03 Deltablazy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:58 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? You know no one plays him and he loses almost every lane right? yes, he rarely wins lanes, but he never loses lanes either. A w max gangplank is extraordinarly difficult to prevent from farming. Then he comes from laning with wits + triforce + double gp10, despite losing lane, and is capable of keeping up in gold with pretty much all other top laners. That I have a bit of a problem with. Also, lol @ you actually thinking that ppl not playing him is a legitimate argument towards his gameplay design. Regarding vlad and riven. Riven's can get by nearly any lane with e max and is able to consistently farm. I've been told numerous times as riven that the champ i'm going against is a 'hard counter', and I just e-max, farm, and win teamfights midgame. I'll preface vlad by saying that riot has actually come out and basically said 'our bad, yeah vlad is bad champion design', but anyways, you can adjust runes/masteries such that vlad withstand his bad matchups and isn't actually affected negatively by doing so. edit: lol, ok, ninja edit. fine. I didn't really want to get into specifics about specific champions, since I figured something like this would crop up, I just wanted to get the point across that the champion type that I was outlining exists. The ppl telling you such counters riven are pretty clueless about riven to begin with. Rumble/olaf/ken/malph are most commonly mentionned.
Then shows them how clueless they are by spamming Riven games and winning every lane.
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EPT
