On August 23 2012 11:38 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 11:15 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 11:01 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? So having a spell that heals and being removes cc means you never lose lane? You should sell lessons to pros, I don't think any of them has figured out your secret yet. Its mana cost never increases all game. Acquire 1-2 GP5's, build a little more tank, and play for GP's strong lategame because you'll never be killed in lane. Even if you come out down on CS, your ult should probably have netted you some assists and your lategame is pretty damn strong as GP once you get tanky enough. And regardless of how you feel about GP, picking out one of his examples but not the idea is pointless. You're attempting to nitpick a small idea in a large post for the sake of... what exactly? I reason that none of the champs he thinks "never loses lane if played right" are such a thing which goes against the entire premise of his argument. How is that nitpicking a small idea? People ALWAYS point out all of the things a champ has in their kit when they try to say he or she is good. Any1 can reason any champ is good if you do that. The reality is GP sucks right now and no one plays him, so I want to point of the mistake of saying he's "a problematic champ" when it's clear he's not in a good place. On August 23 2012 11:03 Deltablazy wrote:On August 23 2012 10:58 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:49 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:46 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 10:42 Feartheguru wrote:On August 23 2012 10:32 barbsq wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:Barbsq: I was more talking about how riot should encourage more interaction between laners than what champion gets chosen during picks/bans. I know there should be a certain level of excitement at character select screen as counters get chosen and comps take shape, but the majority of advantage should be gained in-game. http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=16914This is a guide that riot should strive to have for at least a dozen top laners, approaching the lane with a day9 coined "mid-game plan". Depending on the opponent you will have goals, build adjustments, timings whether in items or levels, just general in-game counterplay that can be applied. Also to note is many Riven lanes have "defining moments" where you won or lost a lane just like a starcraft game, I have never had a lane loss where I felt like better play from myself wouldn't have made a difference. I cringe when an approach to a matchup is: "cry, you were counterpicked, hope you like farming under tower"(Yorick is worst for this) or "take a nap, avoid ganks and enjoy going into teamfights 6/0. I want: "you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor" "shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing" "you advantage diminishes as they get armor" "then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>" "trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him" ok, I guess I'll detail my issues and non-issues with top. I don't have a problem with having some hard-counterpicks top for 2 reasons: 1) Jungler can influence top lane a loooot more than any other lane, and can often overcome counterpick issues. 2) I don't actually think there are any matchups where a champ can literally do nothing but stand under tower. In that kind of situation, I agree that it's toxic gameplay, but I don't think any matchups actually play out like that. 3) Similarly, I think that there are very few top lane matchups where 1 mistake/death = autolose the game. the type of champs I take issue with are ones that simply never 'lose' lane. If they play correctly, then you cannot stop them from farming, and they have a very powerful mid and late game with an item critical mass that they can almost always hit. Irelia, riven, yorick, gangplank and vladimir are all champs that I would put in this problem category (by no means a complete list). IMO, none of these champs have a true hard-counter to actually handle them during the laning phase and preventing them from coming out as monsters into the midgame. As such, what I feel like ends up happening is that the only champs that ever get played are the ones that are in this super-safe, 'invincible laner' category, which ends up meaning that the majority of matchups top are dictated almost strictly by the jungler. That, I find to be indicative of poor game design. I think that the jungler absolutely should have an impact top lane, but I don't think it should be the sole reason for why top lane wins/loses. I guess part of my issue with this comes from the fact that I like to play early-game lane dominators. My first main champ was pantheon, and at the time, he was the epitome of the idea of early dominance to lead into a strong midgame and then help others take over lategame. I guess I feel frustrated that I can have a reasonable advantage in lane over an irelia/yorick/gp/whatever, and then it comes to the midgame, they have an identical power level to me, despite having an item advantage, since all they have to do is keep up reasonable farm, and it all just feels so futile. I play irelia, riven, gangplank and vlad quite a bit, and of all of those i've never felt like there was a matchup I couldn't win, or at least break even (I won't go into why i don't play yorick, because that's actually a whole separate issue). Just to let it be known, I do play an awful lot of top (pretty much all i've been playing recently is top and support), and for the most part I enjoy the lane, and don't think any of these issues are really gamebreaking. Furthermore, i think that enough of it comes down to player skill that I don't encounter this problem all that often. I have often trashed irelias, rivens, gangplanks, vlads and yoricks to the point where they can do absolutely nothing, all game long. But i'm convinced that's because the other players misplayed the matchup, and I was straight-up better than them (or mybe it was an offday or something). So, take these complaints with a grain of salt. wow, what a big fucking wall of text. edit: On August 23 2012 09:05 kainzero wrote:On August 23 2012 08:00 Wolfstan wrote:
I want:
"you have advantage till lvl 9, where trades start to go into his favor"
"shove and roam, they have terrible wave clearing"
"you advantage diminishes as they get armor"
"then lane is heavily influenced by <insert skillshot>"
"trade down, shove the lane, and use your lvl 6 to finish as you ding your ultimate 3 mobs before him"
i think that you don't get those interactions because a lot of the time, one or two deaths can really snowball in one person's favor. it could be like "yeah, once irelia builds wits end then she goes from losing trades to winning trades against xxx champion." but if she gets one or two early kills, she's now up 1 or 2 levels, has wits end, and 20 more cs and it becomes impossible to fight zoning without jungle intervention. i don't know what a workable solution would be. itemization, maybe. if you died 1v1 to irelia twice, i'm sorry, but you done fucked up son. Gangplank --> Never lose lane if played right ---> Wut? you do know how his w works, right? You know no one plays him and he loses almost every lane right? yes, he rarely wins lanes, but he never loses lanes either. A w max gangplank is extraordinarly difficult to prevent from farming. Then he comes from laning with wits + triforce + double gp10, despite losing lane, and is capable of keeping up in gold with pretty much all other top laners. That I have a bit of a problem with. Also, lol @ you actually thinking that ppl not playing him is a legitimate argument towards his gameplay design. Regarding vlad and riven. Riven's can get by nearly any lane with e max and is able to consistently farm. I've been told numerous times as riven that the champ i'm going against is a 'hard counter', and I just e-max, farm, and win teamfights midgame. I'll preface vlad by saying that riot has actually come out and basically said 'our bad, yeah vlad is bad champion design', but anyways, you can adjust runes/masteries such that vlad withstand his bad matchups and isn't actually affected negatively by doing so. edit: lol, ok, ninja edit. fine. I didn't really want to get into specifics about specific champions, since I figured something like this would crop up, I just wanted to get the point across that the champion type that I was outlining exists. The ppl telling you such counters riven are pretty clueless about riven to begin with. Rumble/olaf/ken/malph are most commonly mentionned. Then shows them how clueless they are by spamming Riven games and winning every lane. ok, I guess I'll take the time to spell everything out for you with regards to GP. 1) His q, w, and r, literally scream out 'I'm a turtle champ' -his r has the dual functionality of preventing tower dives, and securing farm elsewhere on the map, both of which aid in GP's plan of stalling to midgame. -his q is a ranged attack who's primary design function is to aid in last hitting. The 2 extra effects on his q are -grant mana back on last hit -provide extra gold on last hit both pretty clearly indicate this function -his w is a low mana - medium cooldown heal with cc removal. It doesn't help that his w is extremely mana-efficient when it comes to healing. GP's w also, in addition to his r and movespeed buff in e makes ganks substantially more annoying. -An addendum to the points above is that none of his regular laning pushes the lane. The only tool he really has to push the lane is r, and let's face it, a GP will never accidently push the wave with an r. 2) How many people play him is not necessarily indicative of whether or not he's an example of poor design. 2 cases in point, it can be argued that both yorick and xerath see significantly less play BECAUSE of problematic design in some respect. Yorick for points I already put forth in a previous post, and Craton's followup of the 'gentlemen's ban' would accurately describe that situation IMO, and xerath for poor aesthetic design.
I'll spell out something so simple you can't possibly misunderstand it. GP is in a bad spot, he has low win rate, he does not get played much, he is in a bad spot. Therefore saying he belongs in a list of champs that can always safely farm and be a force lategame is wrong otherwise he would not have a low win rate (ok this is not really true but you'd atleast see more of him at high elo where people can play him right which you do not) and be played more like he was before his nerfs.
Simple enough?
|
EPT
