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On August 09 2012 03:04 Requizen wrote:
The one on Lolpro? Yeah, it's pretty bad. Boots3 -> HoG -> Philo -> Kage -> Merc -> Zhonya/DFG/DC is complete batshit, I don't know what's up with that.
SV didn't even write it. He kept queuing hoping to play jungle Diana (kept getting banned) while his webmaster or whoever wrote it up for him. He then played one game, lost, and approved the build, all live on stream. First guide = first hits = ad revenue. All in a day's work, lol.
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On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote:Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler +My route + Show Spoiler +As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red For my route I use pots at wolves, blue, second wraiths, golems, and red, don't need one for wraiths For the standard I used a pot at wolves, blue, wraiths, wolves, red, and didn't have one left for last wolves. Blue buff is freaking scary at level 1. You get ganked there you will die. Blue buff is still scary on my route but you don't get quite as low as I did for the standard.
this only works if you have a jungler which relies on big autos or some sort of super-cheap spells. with shyvana that's no problem, same could be said about mundo, udyr, skarner, noc, lee for example (maybe diana but I have no experience with that). if you take a slower jungler, e.g. nautilus or amumu, you're either going to run oom or die to blue.
edit: someone said it already, whatever.
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Just did a regrowth pot jungle on my route with Diana clear time was 3:55. Didn't get a screen cap cause i can't take in full screen and forgot to switch to windowed. HP was at like 700 something out of 852.
The point of the route I use is that you can keep jungling if your teammates are stupid and have their lanes pushed out. As opposed to the standard where your next camp is golems and you don't want to do them with no pots and missing health already.
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Diana's definitely a fast jungler and her mana costs early are low enough (passive doesn't cost mana, shield is only once every ~11-12 seconds) that she qualifies under "low resource dependency" - you aren't DUMPING mana like skarner or amumu, either.
There's also the factor of protection. It's much easier to steal your red if you go wraiths wolves blue, and much easier to kill you at blue with no allies nearby to protect you. A ward in your jungle to expose your nonstandard route (one at blue or wraiths, for example) could cue a counterjungler to go gank you or take your buff.
Blue buff at level 1 is a lot less scary when your allies are all there with you. It takes a serious commitment to invade blue when 3+ members are nearby it, which means that knowing where ANY enemies on the map lets you identify whether or not an invade is incoming.
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When did TSM charging for higher quality on their weekly tourney?
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Any regrwoth +1 or cloth +5 is always risky. It provides you no protection from counter jungling and makes you very weak if attempting a gank. You're basically saying, "Time to farm for the first 4 minutes. Hope you guys don't need help or I get invaded." That's not terrible, but it is a risk. Like I also said, you're still delaying your blue, making it longer until your team midlane gets it.
What real advantage does your route provide? I'm not seeing one, outside of the "i'm level 2 for blue," which is easily not a big problem as long as you get a leash at blue anyway.
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On August 09 2012 09:33 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:30 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Keep in mind that delaying blue can have an impact in 5 minutes when their midlaner gets a blue faster. Also, certain junglers simply have different strengths. Shyvana is stupid easy in the jungle and could farm the most retarded route imaginable and still do ok farming. Not getting a leash at blue can be a huge problem for a lot of champions, even if they're level 2 because not everybody wants to open cloth +5... or be Shyvana. On "weaker" champs, those seconds add up and make a meaningful difference. Well the route I use, my friend uses it for skarner as well, I've used it for mundo, nocturne, and Diana. The other main problem with the standard route is if you want to continue jungling without a trip back you have to do golems next then wolves, and then wraiths. With the route I use you go back to wolves then wraiths then golems. I wouldn't want to do golems after just running out of potions.
If you start boots that extra travel distance hardly matters, or you can just gank.
On another note, I'd be far more afraid of doing blue at level 2 by myself than at level 1 with a few allies nearby to warn me of invasions and/or leash.
On August 09 2012 09:37 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote:Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler +My route + Show Spoiler +As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red That only works with a cloth opening, on a very fast jungler with low resource dependancy. Shyvana is both resourceless and extremely fast. If you take something slower like naut for example, he will pretty much run out of potions by the time blue buff dies because he takes so much damage and deals so little early on. Other more resource dependant junglers like skarner will almost oom themselves by the time they get to blue buff, and that also translates into a huge amount of extra damage taken. Opening boots is almost a requirement because it allows you to pressure lanes and gank successfully. And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help.
There are many, many junglers who could do this sort of opening without cloth. The problem is not that junglers can't do this opening (though some can't), but other issues.
For one, the Smite timing on Red is significantly off. I tested his route with both Diana and Shyvana, and in both cases if you use Smite to last hit Blue it won't be up in time for Red. You have to Smite early in order for this route to function smoothly. If you're free to do that then it can be faster, but it also takes a harsher toll on your health even when compared to a leashless standard route.
The other major problem is that it has no defense against counter-jungling. If a fast jungler goes Blue -> Your Red, you're still busy with your Blue. Similarly, if an enemy jungler goes Red -> Your Blue they're going to be level 2 with Red buff versus you tanking Blue with no buffs. There's a large element of risk with this route that simply isn't present for routes where you have your team in position to protect your objectives.
Last but not least there's the obvious problem of it lacking a leash. When you run Cloth Armor it might not be quite so self-evident, but those of us who have long eschewed that antiquated build for much more aggressive or advantageous setups notice (unless we're using stupidly durable junglers like Diana).
It's an interesting idea, but the issues are too significant for it to be competitive with established routes.
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On August 09 2012 09:49 sylverfyre wrote:
Diana's definitely a fast jungler and her mana costs early are low enough (passive doesn't cost mana, shield is only once every ~11-12 seconds) that she qualifies under "low resource dependency" - you aren't DUMPING mana like skarner or amumu, either.
There's also the factor of protection. It's much easier to steal your red if you go wraiths wolves blue, and much easier to kill you at blue with no allies nearby to protect you. A ward in your jungle to expose your nonstandard route (one at blue or wraiths, for example) could cue a counterjungler to go gank you or take your buff.
Well I can count on one hand how many times my red has been gone, and I've only faced 1 team so far smart enough to ward blue and jump me. Also, a full on invade at blue while getting a leash tends to end worse than just your jungler getting ganked at blue or having red stolen. I've been victim as a mid to far more invades than I have been ganked as a jungler using my route. Everyone is familiar with the standard route and plans accordingly, isn't it better to have options?
On August 09 2012 09:54 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:33 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:30 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Keep in mind that delaying blue can have an impact in 5 minutes when their midlaner gets a blue faster. Also, certain junglers simply have different strengths. Shyvana is stupid easy in the jungle and could farm the most retarded route imaginable and still do ok farming. Not getting a leash at blue can be a huge problem for a lot of champions, even if they're level 2 because not everybody wants to open cloth +5... or be Shyvana. On "weaker" champs, those seconds add up and make a meaningful difference. Well the route I use, my friend uses it for skarner as well, I've used it for mundo, nocturne, and Diana. The other main problem with the standard route is if you want to continue jungling without a trip back you have to do golems next then wolves, and then wraiths. With the route I use you go back to wolves then wraiths then golems. I wouldn't want to do golems after just running out of potions. If you start boots that extra travel distance hardly matters, or you can just gank. On another note, I'd be far more afraid of doing blue at level 2 by myself than at level 1 with a few allies nearby to warn me of invasions and/or leash. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:37 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote:Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler +My route + Show Spoiler +As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red That only works with a cloth opening, on a very fast jungler with low resource dependancy. Shyvana is both resourceless and extremely fast. If you take something slower like naut for example, he will pretty much run out of potions by the time blue buff dies because he takes so much damage and deals so little early on. Other more resource dependant junglers like skarner will almost oom themselves by the time they get to blue buff, and that also translates into a huge amount of extra damage taken. Opening boots is almost a requirement because it allows you to pressure lanes and gank successfully. And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help. There are many, many junglers who could do this sort of opening without cloth. The problem is not that junglers can't do this opening (though some can't), but other issues. For one, the Smite timing on Red is significantly off. I tested his route with both Diana and Shyvana, and in both cases if you use Smite to last hit Blue it won't be up in time for Red. You have to Smite early in order for this route to function smoothly. If you're free to do that then it can be faster, but it also takes a harsher toll on your health even when compared to a leashless standard route. The other major problem is that it has no defense against counter-jungling. If a fast jungler goes Blue -> Your Red, you're still busy with your Blue. Similarly, if an enemy jungler goes Red -> Your Blue they're going to be level 2 with Red buff versus you tanking Blue with no buffs. There's a large element of risk with this route that simply isn't present for routes where you have your team in position to protect your objectives. Last but not least there's the obvious problem of it lacking a leash. When you run Cloth Armor it might not be quite so self-evident, but those of us who have long eschewed that antiquated build for much more aggressive or advantageous setups notice (unless we're using stupidly durable junglers like Diana). It's an interesting idea, but the issues are too significant for it to be competitive with established routes.
Smite is up usually in the nick of time for me. I have a system based on Shyvana's Q CD to time when I use my smite. Also, I don't really play ranked so the risk factor is far less common. After all pubbies aren't very coordinated. When I do play ranked I tend to run wraiths > Red > instagank. If my mid refuses to give me a leash then I resort to my route.
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United States15536 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:51 HazMat wrote:
When did TSM charging for higher quality on their weekly tourney?
Pretty awful since I feel like you need at least 720p to see ANYTHING.
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Tested the jungle route with a number of my junglers on a boots+3 opening(pretty much the only opening I consider viable, cloth 5 is okay in some jungle matchups, regrowth is just bad).
Noct can do it fine, but he's in the category of strong junglers. Runs out of pots by the time red is finished at ~80%.
Skarner IMO takes too much damage despite being fast to do this route. Ends Red out of pots and at like ~40%hp.
Malph does okay, but it's so incredibly slow it's not worth it, even though his passive+W means he maintains a fairly safe amount of HP throughout the clear.
Don't do it with naut, W breaks too quickly without help, and E doesn't do enough damage, runs out of pots by the time blue dies.
Udyr is much like skarner, having turtle up entering a camp and spamming it throughout reduces damage taken by a huge amount.
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On August 09 2012 09:48 NEOtheONE wrote:
Just did a regrowth pot jungle on my route with Diana clear time was 3:55. Didn't get a screen cap cause i can't take in full screen and forgot to switch to windowed. HP was at like 700 something out of 852.
The point of the route I use is that you can keep jungling if your teammates are stupid and have their lanes pushed out. As opposed to the standard where your next camp is golems and you don't want to do them with no pots and missing health already.
even without a leash a wolves > blue start is still going to be quicker on diana
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On August 09 2012 09:40 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:37 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote:Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler +My route + Show Spoiler +As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red That only works with a cloth opening, on a very fast jungler with low resource dependancy. Shyvana is both resourceless and extremely fast. If you take something slower like naut for example, he will pretty much run out of potions by the time blue buff dies because he takes so much damage and deals so little early on. Other more resource dependant junglers like skarner will almost oom themselves by the time they get to blue buff, and that also translates into a huge amount of extra damage taken. Opening boots is almost a requirement because it allows you to pressure lanes and gank successfully. And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help. I would much, much rather take a leash+help on buff camp over getting to a buff camp at level 2. Works fine for me with Diana with Regrowth + one pot. Also works with Nocturne with armor + 5 pots and he's mana hungry.
nocturne isn't mana hungry...
On August 09 2012 09:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Any regrwoth +1 or cloth +5 is always risky.
Cloth5 is actually the safest opening for a jungler. It provides more sustain and survivability than any other opening. The reason why cloth 5 is considered sub-par to boots openings is because cloth won't necessarily build into something useful if your jungler doesn't build wriggles/tabi. Boots give you a faster clear (you get to camps faster) and a stronger gank. Cloth is better for staying safe.
One big reason that NEOtheONE is overlooking is the fact that if you do wraiths->wolves->blue, your blue will also respawn upwards 30 seconds later than normal. This doesn't necessarily affect you much at all, but if your mid laner needs/wants blue it can cause a problem for him. If the enemy mid laner has blue and yours has to live without it for a couple creep waves, they're going to have a bad time for a while. Also, delaying your blue buff gives the enemy jungler a larger window of opportunity to prepare to invade and jack your buff after taking his (this is assuming he sees your alternate route ofc)
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On August 09 2012 10:05 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:51 HazMat wrote:
When did TSM charging for higher quality on their weekly tourney? Pretty awful since I feel like you need at least 720p to see ANYTHING.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/loiPK.jpg)
You need you're eyes checked sir!
Also, I think it was just this week that they started charging.
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On August 09 2012 10:45 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:40 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:37 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote:On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote:Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler +My route + Show Spoiler +As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red That only works with a cloth opening, on a very fast jungler with low resource dependancy. Shyvana is both resourceless and extremely fast. If you take something slower like naut for example, he will pretty much run out of potions by the time blue buff dies because he takes so much damage and deals so little early on. Other more resource dependant junglers like skarner will almost oom themselves by the time they get to blue buff, and that also translates into a huge amount of extra damage taken. Opening boots is almost a requirement because it allows you to pressure lanes and gank successfully. And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help. I would much, much rather take a leash+help on buff camp over getting to a buff camp at level 2. Works fine for me with Diana with Regrowth + one pot. Also works with Nocturne with armor + 5 pots and he's mana hungry. nocturne isn't mana hungry... Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Any regrwoth +1 or cloth +5 is always risky. Cloth5 is actually the safest opening for a jungler. It provides more sustain and survivability than any other opening. The reason why cloth 5 is considered sub-par to boots openings is because cloth won't necessarily build into something useful if your jungler doesn't build wriggles/tabi. Boots give you a faster clear (you get to camps faster) and a stronger gank. Cloth is better for staying safe. One big reason that NEOtheONE is overlooking is the fact that if you do wraiths->wolves->blue, your blue will also respawn upwards 30 seconds later than normal. This doesn't necessarily affect you much at all, but if your mid laner needs/wants blue it can cause a problem for him. If the enemy mid laner has blue and yours has to live without it for a couple creep waves, they're going to have a bad time for a while. Also, delaying your blue buff gives the enemy jungler a larger window of opportunity to prepare to invade and jack your buff after taking his (this is assuming he sees your alternate route ofc)
I should've clarified what I meant. It has noticeable downsides, cloth +5, that is. With no boots it makes your ganks weaker and your ability to stop coutnerjungling less as well. You're "safe", but with the security comes the downside. Realistically, I don't know any champs who open cloth +5 except for those with bad early ganks who need the additional sustain. No champ really willingly takes it; only begrudgingly.
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zionspartan says irelia is really strong and only loses to jax, kinda confirmed what i thought
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On August 09 2012 10:49 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 10:05 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 09:51 HazMat wrote:
When did TSM charging for higher quality on their weekly tourney? Pretty awful since I feel like you need at least 720p to see ANYTHING. You need you're eyes checked sir! Also, I think it was just this week that they started charging.
What's that thing above skarner?
Oddone looks like a varus but I know it's not because he jungles.
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On August 09 2012 11:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:
zionspartan says irelia is really strong and only loses to jax, kinda confirmed what i thought
Irelia dies to nunu
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Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining.
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On August 09 2012 11:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
What's that thing above skarner?
Oddone looks like a varus but I know it's not because he jungles.
Darkflame Shyvana ulting over anivia in egg form I would guess.
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On August 09 2012 11:15 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:10 zulu_nation8 wrote:
zionspartan says irelia is really strong and only loses to jax, kinda confirmed what i thought Irelia dies to nunu
you can never die but you cant kill him either after certain levels, they have different roles but i think irelia is generally more useful. I don't think you can really run nunu top in a tourney game unless it's a specific strat since he doesnt scale and doesnt do damage which is bad if you're a solo taking farm.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qkmwB.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O1GYk.jpg)
