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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:46 Feartheguru wrote: I never see people last hit at 20 hp. Can someone teach me how to quote multiple people, spent 5 minutes looking around can't figure it out I open each quote in a new tab and copy/paste it all into one post. I am not aware of a better way to do it on this forum. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:13 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Because A) if your opponent is good at last hitting, it doesn't ensure that the wave will push, and you're just behind 100-140 gold, which is a huge deal early game B) isn't that big of a deal against most junglers because they can just shove the wave if it ever gets "frozen" and go shop C) puts you behind getting to level 2 which is a HUGE deal in mid lane. I'm starting to think that taking wolf xp or stealing their big wraith with your top laner as blue team (if you have a jungler that starts red) then shoving immediately to get level 2 off of first wave is super strong, actually. It's very very strong. I win some lanes at my elo just because of this small advantage. I always duo with my friend who's support and he helps me kill our team's wraiths when i'm top lane. I just auto attack the wave and hit 2 with a creep advantage then go all out. On August 09 2012 07:22 101toss wrote: You guys clearly aren't aware of the power of top/mid nunu We can't all be as good as you. You're even gold ELO ! | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:57 Perplex wrote: It's very very strong. I win some lanes at my elo just because of this small advantage. I always duo with my friend who's support and he helps me kill our team's wraiths when i'm top lane. I just auto attack the wave and hit 2 with a creep advantage then go all out. And then you get level 2 ganked and you are sad for overextending | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
This reminds me of something I was thinking about. Can any high elo top laner tell me why people don't just give up say the first 3-4 last hits so the lane immediately pushes guaranteeing safety and putting the opposing laner at risk with just that tiny cost? Many people at lower Elo dont realize that you WANT to have a pushed lane (maybe minus the toplane) midlane is atm pretty much played: push push push after a certain level you do wraiths + maybe wolves or you could gank (really rarely nowadays). As the botlane (my lane  ) you want to perma push because its hard to get ganked and you will get harrass/lane/cs advantage by having the lane at the enemy tower ironically you are safer from ganks because you will instantly see if the enemy is moving (you dont afk at the enemy tower just push till there and back out a bit. In addition to that many junglers can dive easily especially on botlane where you have an additional member to tank the tower for you.TLDR: Pushing isnt bad. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:58 101toss wrote: And then you get level 2 ganked and you are sad for overextending Obviously you don't do this against junglers with strong level 2 ganks. Worst case scenario is you're playing conservatively while still maintaining an XP advantage, and they force a flash by using summoners on you. But against noct, amumu, skarner, warwick, etc. i'll do this every time | ||
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:40 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: "You turn up to lane and it's like, fuck your shitty 25g, just forget that last hit and hit the other guy in lane instead. Do it a few times. Boom. You just won lane. Now cs as much as you want and make them cry at tower." -DLift on winning lane Doublelift has some of the best quotes ever. He should be a life coach guru, i'd buy his books. I wish I could live the DUNKING lifestyle. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:52 Feartheguru wrote: Not trying to insinuate anything, I was wondering, what elo are you? You seem to have the experience that you can't expect a blue leash when in the hundreds games I've played I've not once seen the jungler on my team not get a leash. Also I doubt the path you listed is faster than the normal route. It's normal because it's generally the most optimal and I doubt your friend figured out something the pros missed. Also just basic logic, clearly the normal route has a shorter walking distance and a quicker blue --> lower cooldown. My route/my friend's route = you are level 2 before you start blue, which means you have 2 skills you can use as opposed to 1, which means you take less damage from blue as it will naturally die faster. I'm going to do like 4-5 runs of each and see what the time and HP ending differences are. I'll also compare boots + pots vs cloth + pots. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On August 09 2012 08:19 Slayer91 wrote: I think maxing W isn't all that bad as long as you aren't putting any points into E. just to clarify, I assume you mean more than 1 point in e, since a point in e early on is absolutely critical on sona. edit: also, maxing w on sona is fine imo. Comparing it to soraka isn't reasonable because soraka is a burst healer, while sona is a sustained healer. edit2: if you give up the first 1-2 cs in top lane to let it push to your tower, you have to be really careful not to let the wave build up too big, since if it hits the tower, the counterpush is at an almost perfect timing for a lvl 4 jungle gank, which leaves you extremely exposed. I do this sometimes in favorable matchups, but you have to make sure that after those first creeps you are pushing about as hard as your opponent, so that you only have 2-3ish creeps when they hit your tower. It also means they hit lvl's faster than you do, so you have to be aware of the level advantage as well. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
I was mainly playing on CN and NA but as I get back to Vietnam in the next few months, the logical step here is to switch to SEA but I don't want to invest my time to a low population server. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
Standard + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qkmwB.jpg) My route + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O1GYk.jpg) As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. EDIT: Part of the HP difference is due to timings on HP pots so we can probably eliminate that. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:17 NEOtheONE wrote: Okay first results are in Standard + Show Spoiler + My route + Show Spoiler + As you can see the time difference is almost negligible. The HP difference is slightly more noticeable though but still not too big. This is cloth armor and 5 pots btw. what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:23 Amui wrote: what is your route anyways? I'm skeptical that it would be better. Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red For my route I use pots at wolves, blue, second wraiths, golems, and red, don't need one for wraiths For the standard I used a pot at wolves, blue, wraiths, wolves, red, and didn't have one left for last wolves. Blue buff is freaking scary at level 1. You get ganked there you will die. Blue buff is still scary on my route but you don't get quite as low as I did for the standard. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:30 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Keep in mind that delaying blue can have an impact in 5 minutes when their midlaner gets a blue faster. Also, certain junglers simply have different strengths. Shyvana is stupid easy in the jungle and could farm the most retarded route imaginable and still do ok farming. Not getting a leash at blue can be a huge problem for a lot of champions, even if they're level 2 because not everybody wants to open cloth +5... or be Shyvana. On "weaker" champs, those seconds add up and make a meaningful difference. Well the route I use, my friend uses it for skarner as well, I've used it for mundo, nocturne, and Diana. The other main problem with the standard route is if you want to continue jungling without a trip back you have to do golems next then wolves, and then wraiths. With the route I use you go back to wolves then wraiths then golems. I wouldn't want to do golems after just running out of potions. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:24 NEOtheONE wrote: Wraiths > wolves > blue > Wraiths > golems > red And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help. I would much, much rather take a leash+help on buff camp over getting to a buff camp at level 2. EDIT: tested the route with like 5 of my junglers, cloth isn't required, but for the weaker junglers you literally blow every pot in a boots opening by the time blue is done. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:37 Amui wrote: That only works with a cloth opening, on a very fast jungler with low resource dependancy. Shyvana is both resourceless and extremely fast. If you take something slower like naut for example, he will pretty much run out of potions by the time blue buff dies because he takes so much damage and deals so little early on. Other more resource dependant junglers like skarner will almost oom themselves by the time they get to blue buff, and that also translates into a huge amount of extra damage taken. Opening boots is almost a requirement because it allows you to pressure lanes and gank successfully. And getting a leash on a buff camp, even on a cloth opening, very easily saves 1-3 potions depending on the amount of help. I would much, much rather take a leash+help on buff camp over getting to a buff camp at level 2. Works fine for me with Diana with Regrowth + one pot. Also works with Nocturne with armor + 5 pots and he's mana hungry. | ||
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