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On August 08 2012 12:57 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 11:00 barbsq wrote:
is it just me, or is draven seriously underrated?
like, this is purely anecdotal evidence, but every time i've seen draven, either on streams or in my own games, they get 20+ kills and go legendary multiple times in a single game. The only time i've ever seen a draven do poorly was in the first 2 days he was released.
idk, mybe it's just me Draven passive gives him a free BF sword by like lvl 6 or something stupid every time he hits Q. You can outfarm and outplay him really hard and get a whole BF up on him, but if you try to fight he still hits like a truck. It's honestly ridiculous. Actually, adding on the bonus damage native to Q he gets his free BF by lvl 4 I think. Wtf. And once he gets crit he doesn't even need his Q to truck you. I'm so glad no one plays him.
Because of this, Draven can run ArPen reds and quaints and still last hit the same as other AD carries. That's pretty broken.
So yea, he can be potentially be OP, but no one has learned to play him well.
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On August 08 2012 13:53 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 12:57 MoonBear wrote:On August 08 2012 11:00 barbsq wrote:
is it just me, or is draven seriously underrated?
like, this is purely anecdotal evidence, but every time i've seen draven, either on streams or in my own games, they get 20+ kills and go legendary multiple times in a single game. The only time i've ever seen a draven do poorly was in the first 2 days he was released.
idk, mybe it's just me Draven passive gives him a free BF sword by like lvl 6 or something stupid every time he hits Q. You can outfarm and outplay him really hard and get a whole BF up on him, but if you try to fight he still hits like a truck. It's honestly ridiculous. Actually, adding on the bonus damage native to Q he gets his free BF by lvl 4 I think. Wtf. And once he gets crit he doesn't even need his Q to truck you. I'm so glad no one plays him. Because of this, Draven can run ArPen reds and quaints and still last hit the same as other AD carries. That's pretty broken. So yea, he can be potentially be OP, but no one has learned to play him well.
I think it's because people are so focused on catching his axes in teamfights. Positioning plus catching seems to me like a detriment unless you become super comfortable with doing it and have the awareness and game sense to just let some go. Anything beyond lane and duels, I think catching axes becomes iffy. But it's a free 85% damage, so the temptation is too great.
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On August 08 2012 14:05 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 13:53 Sufficiency wrote:On August 08 2012 12:57 MoonBear wrote:On August 08 2012 11:00 barbsq wrote:
is it just me, or is draven seriously underrated?
like, this is purely anecdotal evidence, but every time i've seen draven, either on streams or in my own games, they get 20+ kills and go legendary multiple times in a single game. The only time i've ever seen a draven do poorly was in the first 2 days he was released.
idk, mybe it's just me Draven passive gives him a free BF sword by like lvl 6 or something stupid every time he hits Q. You can outfarm and outplay him really hard and get a whole BF up on him, but if you try to fight he still hits like a truck. It's honestly ridiculous. Actually, adding on the bonus damage native to Q he gets his free BF by lvl 4 I think. Wtf. And once he gets crit he doesn't even need his Q to truck you. I'm so glad no one plays him. Because of this, Draven can run ArPen reds and quaints and still last hit the same as other AD carries. That's pretty broken. So yea, he can be potentially be OP, but no one has learned to play him well. I think it's because people are so focused on catching his axes in teamfights. Positioning plus catching seems to me like a detriment unless you become super comfortable with doing it and have the awareness and game sense to just let some go. Anything beyond lane and duels, I think catching axes becomes iffy. But it's a free 85% damage, so the temptation is too great.
well it's not just the extra 85% damage. you can't ignore the refresh you get on blood rush for catching an axe. Blood rush usually has a 12 second cd, which is pretty hefty considering it only lasts for 3 seconds. Not catching an axe can have a bigger dps decrease than just the bonus damage from axes.
that said, Draven is probably somewhat underplayed, but whether he's top tier or not I don't know.
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Considering pretty much all ad's without an escape aren't played (except for ashe in certain comps) draven, mf, varius and any I've missed don't have a very needed component to being a good ad.
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I also find that Ezreal, who's popular right now, can do pretty well vs Draven I think past level 5. The as debuff is incredibly strong vs him.
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On August 08 2012 14:14 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Considering pretty much all ad's without an escape aren't played (except for ashe in certain comps) draven, mf, varius and any I've missed don't have a very needed component to being a good ad.
Forgot Kog'Maw. No escape but still frequently used.
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On August 08 2012 14:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 14:14 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Considering pretty much all ad's without an escape aren't played (except for ashe in certain comps) draven, mf, varius and any I've missed don't have a very needed component to being a good ad. Forgot Kog'Maw. No escape but still frequently used.
I haven't seen Kog in a tourney for quite some time now tbh. The last time I remember seeing him it was an AP Kog as well.
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Teams got bored of protect the Kog
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Can't wait to try out Diana in real games, just been messing around with bots tonight. Really fun. IMO the ASPD marks are not optional, they really make a difference. With 2 points in W you pretty much stop taking dmg in the jungle. 2dring Abyssal was the only build that didn't feel bad, I dunno.
Always fight, never escape.
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On August 08 2012 14:47 MooMooMugi wrote:
Teams got bored of protect the Kog
Riot destroyed Protect the Kog.
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On August 08 2012 14:59 cLutZ wrote:Riot destroyed Protect the Kog.
I wouldn't say Riot destroyed it. It's still quite possible. Just that teams have shifted into playing other styles. Now you have the Korean push strat and CLG.eu's turtle strat that's more centered around Froggen's AP carry. The rise of Urgot as a popular AD carry also meant that Kog has a relatively harder time farming than before. I remember someone saying that Kog's rise in popularity was in part due to Corki being really popular at one point. Now it's all about Graves. Ezreal seems to be surging in popularity too.
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I finally got to play her for like two games, once in jungle once in top.
Jungle - + Show Spoiler +I went 9/21/0 MPen Reds, Armor Yellows, Scaling AP Blues, AP Quints, then built Philo->HoG->Tabi(they had no cc and 3 phys damage dealers)->Wits->Randuins/Rabadons(game was over at this point, I was 10-0-5). I was playing vs not so skilled players, but I feel if I used a variation of my Udyr rune page(aspd, armor, ap/level blues, AP or MS Quints) it would work much better for a tanky initiator build with some good damage and great clear speed. Credit to Slayer for those recommended items.
Top - + Show Spoiler +I went 21/9/0, Mpen Reds, Armor Yellows, Scaling AP Blues, AP Quints. Boots 3 -> Hextech(meh, worked alright and I needed the sustain) ->Abysal (lots of magic damage on other team) -> Sorc Boots -> Rabadons -> Rylai's -> Lich Bane ->sold Hextech for GA. Hextech didn't seem to do much due to her having so much aoe ability, I think double drings would work better. Once again, playing vs not so good players, ended up at 26-5-12 or something dumb like that. Her burst when she gets 6/6 is insane, but like Akali she's very susceptible to getting bursted in a CC chain.
Overall I really like her, definitely my playstyle (balls to the walls), but I wouldn't call her OP just yet, although she has a great kit for staying on a target. I feel like her passive damage will get nerfed to reduce her clear speed, but I love that she can play mid, top, or jungle.
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No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On August 08 2012 13:36 Requizen wrote:
I don't really play mid, but it's probably feasible based on farm and stealing wraiths, so easier for someone like Morg, Galio, or Kass, harder for Fizz or something.
Alex Ich had a choice quote playing Diana last night - "OK she can farm wraiths, automatically viable mid."
I paraphrase but the gist is there and I thought that was hilarious xD
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On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
lulu's not unplayable in lane she just isn't blatantly OP anymore. She was never 100% central to that comp. It just happened to be the way Dignitas ran it. Protect the Kog comps are essentially 4 protects 1 with Kog being the "1." You can still do that. CLG.eu does that to a certain extent with their Froggenivia turtle comps; the difference is that the burden of carry is split between Froggen and Yellowpete. 4 protects 1 got phased out mostly cause of more aggressive strategies that made it really difficult to rely on a single player to carry the team and/or meta shifts in the bot lane like Urgot becoming popular.
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On August 08 2012 15:05 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 14:59 cLutZ wrote:On August 08 2012 14:47 MooMooMugi wrote:
Teams got bored of protect the Kog Riot destroyed Protect the Kog. I wouldn't say Riot destroyed it. It's still quite possible. Just that teams have shifted into playing other styles. Now you have the Korean push strat and CLG.eu's turtle strat that's more centered around Froggen's AP carry. The rise of Urgot as a popular AD carry also meant that Kog has a relatively harder time farming than before. I remember someone saying that Kog's rise in popularity was in part due to Corki being really popular at one point. Now it's all about Graves. Ezreal seems to be surging in popularity too.
1) All things instrumental to protect the kog nerfed --> No more protect the kog --> Other ads are more popular to fill the space
2) All things instrumental to protect the kog nerfed at a time when it dominated everything --> Coincidentally other things got popular at the same time --> no more protect the kog
I think 1 makes more sense.
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On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog has existed before Lulu was even made. And Soraka isn't even that great in that comp. I'm nearly positive that CLGna ran protect the Kog at WCG when they still had Kobe24 lol. TSM ran protect the Kog at IEM Gamescom with Ali support and Regi playing AP Janna mid.
On August 08 2012 15:19 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog comps are essentially 4 protects 1 with Kog being the "1." You can still do that. Well the point is to protect him "well". Of course by definition you can always have 4 people protect 1 person. By your definition a team of all ad carries who build tank items except kog and focuses on keeping kog alive is a protect the kog comp. Sure, but the point is it's not good anymore.
Lulu and Soraka are not integral parts of protecting Kog. Alistar, Leona, Taric, and Janna all work fine. Both Ali and Janna can be run in roles other than support too.
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On August 08 2012 15:13 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog comps are essentially 4 protects 1 with Kog being the "1." You can still do that.
Well the point is to protect him "well". Of course by definition you can always have 4 people protect 1 person. By your definition a team of all ad carries who build tank items except kog and focuses on keeping kog alive is a protect the kog comp. Sure, but the point is it's not good anymore.
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On August 08 2012 15:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog has existed before Lulu was even made. And Soraka isn't even that great in that comp. I'm nearly positive that CLGna ran protect the Kog at WCG when they still had Kobe24 lol. TSM ran protect the Kog at IEM Gamescom with Ali support and Regi playing AP Janna mid. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:19 Feartheguru wrote:On August 08 2012 15:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog comps are essentially 4 protects 1 with Kog being the "1." You can still do that. Well the point is to protect him "well". Of course by definition you can always have 4 people protect 1 person. By your definition a team of all ad carries who build tank items except kog and focuses on keeping kog alive is a protect the kog comp. Sure, but the point is it's not good anymore. Lulu and Soraka are not integral parts of protecting Kog. Alistar, Leona, Taric, and Janna all work fine. Both Ali and Janna can be run in roles other than support too.
Ahh the infamous "dan dinh gets caught at baron and loses his team the game, game" Cause He was absolutely shitting on Hotshots kog in that tourney
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On August 08 2012 15:19 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 08 2012 15:10 wei2coolman wrote:
No, Riot destroyed it, along with a whole bunch of meta change made it hard to play
Nerf'd lulu's damage, made her unplayable in lane.
Nerf to raka's ulti also hurts soraka as well.
Protect the Kog comps are essentially 4 protects 1 with Kog being the "1." You can still do that. Well the point is to protect him "well". Of course by definition you can always have 4 people protect 1 person. By your definition a team of all ad carries who build tank items except kog and focuses on keeping kog alive is a protect the kog comp. Sure, but the point is it's not good anymore.
Yango explained 4 protects 1 multiple times before. It's a team comp revolved around not only protecting that single carry in fights, but also to provide sufficient space for him to farm. Lulu and Soraka got nerfed yes, but 4 protect 1 comps existed and were played before and after Lulu's inception and her nerfs. People associate 4 protect 1 with Protect the Kog starring Lulu and Soraka because that's what Dignitas used that one tourney (IPL I think?) and it was just obscene. 4 protects 1 works just as well with supports like Ali/Janna.
You're absolutely right in that 4 protects 1 phased out of popularity because it's not very good anymore. Nerfs to Soraka certainly helped that, but Riot's nerfs were not the single defining factor causing 4 protect 1 to become less popular. Meta shifts played a big part in making 4 protect 1 more or less obsolete.
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EPT
