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On August 07 2012 15:13 TheYango wrote: I don't even know why we're nitpicking numbers when anyone can just watch the damn spotlight or skill video on her champ profile and see how big it is.
Ya this is what I was thinking not sure why there is any debate at all.
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On August 07 2012 15:43 TheYango wrote: My take on Diana's E is basically this: Diana's E is to Dark Seer's Vacuum just as Anivia Wall is to Earthshaker's Fissure. Both of the LoL-ported versions of the skills are significantly weaker (neither do damage; Anivia Wall doesn't stun, has shorter placement range, and doesn't block as much space until you hit rank 5; Diana's E is PBAoE rather than ranged and doesn't pull as large of an area at higher ranks, but slows), but you're still effectively porting 2 of the most game-changing skills in all of DotA (Dark Seer and Earthshaker are considered to be 2 of the top 4 teamfight heroes in Chinese DotA). Look how game-changing Anivia wall is--that's how important Diana's E is going to be.
Darius has 475 range on his pull in an arc that looks like 90 degree at the end? They both come with a ministun. Darius E is a tonne better when chasing or pulling through walls. Diana E is better a few times a game where you get in among a team and displace 3-4 people, which with Darius E you could do to 2 people anyways but you don't cause it'd be a waste to use that skill that way. Also better in 2v2 fights where you'll get two and Darius can only pull 1. Seems pretty obvious to me it'll be like the significant of Darius E and nothing close to wall. Just wait and see.
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Is diana's E a full CC? like it forces people next to her? or can it be ported out? or somewhat countered?
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The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer. Diana's is pbaoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy. Because of the nature of her kit, the fact that her E is centered on herself is a minimal drawback. She's super mobile and can get into the center of the enemy team almost as easily as you can put Oriana's ball into the enemy team. Not to mention that people have already been theorycrafting that she could probably be built somewhat tanky and still do decent damage.
To add on some more. We've already seen how powerful Shyv+Lulu+Ori can be. Now imagine that except you don't need Ori to draw all of them into a nice clump, can almost guarantee a knockup on all of them with Lulu ult and because you don't need Ori to clump them you can have another aoe burst AP to nuke the crap out of the clumped enemy team.
On August 07 2012 15:55 wei2coolman wrote: Is diana's E a full CC? like it forces people next to her? or can it be ported out? or somewhat countered? My guess is that it works like every other displacement skill in the game. Once it starts moving you, you're effectively suppressed for the duration of the displacement, which isn't really that long. If it works similar to other displacement skills, you can still juke and teleport out of it with good timing, like dodging Ali's W.
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United States47024 Posts
It's also arguable that a skill that's good in teamfights is more useful than one that's good in chases and 2v2s.
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Her E reminds me of D3 monk skill. Forgot the name but it's exactly the same.
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On August 07 2012 15:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer.
Diana's is pb aoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy.
1) 475 range pull in an arc vs. 250 range in all directions. You continuously compare asymmetric things as if its obvious one is superior to the other.
2) centering around a character is a negative attribute no idea where you're getting at
3) Talon also has a good gap closer and an ult that has way way bigger aoe than her E, therefore his ult consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team while being able to assassinate a carry. That is based off the same logic you used, why doesn't it work?
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On August 07 2012 16:01 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 15:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer.
Diana's is pb aoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy. 1) 475 range pull in an arc vs. 250 range in all directions. You continuously compare asymmetric things as if its obvious one is superior to the other. 2) centering around a character is a negative attribute no idea where you're getting at 3) Talon also has a good gap closer and an ult that has way way bigger aoe than her E, therefore his ult consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team while being able to assassinate a carry. That is based off the same logic you used, why doesn't it work? 1. You're the one who brought up Darius, not me.
2. Centering around a champ is bad if you can't get into position to use it effectively, which for Diana is a non-issue because of her ult. It's also bad since it places you in a vulnerable position, but that can be circumvented with your build/team responsiveness.
3. You need to read up on the mechanics of Talon's ulti. Talon's ulti doesn't cc and does damage based on how many blades they're hit by. Thus, the closer they are to Talon, the more damage they take. Unless the entire enemy team is stacked on top of one another (unlikely) they will take variable damage (usually minimal) based on how far away they are from Talon. I also fail to see how Talon's ulti is in any way shape or form related to Diana's E.
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On August 07 2012 16:05 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 16:01 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2012 15:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer.
Diana's is pb aoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy. 1) 475 range pull in an arc vs. 250 range in all directions. You continuously compare asymmetric things as if its obvious one is superior to the other. 2) centering around a character is a negative attribute no idea where you're getting at 3) Talon also has a good gap closer and an ult that has way way bigger aoe than her E, therefore his ult consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team while being able to assassinate a carry. That is based off the same logic you used, why doesn't it work? 1. You're the one who brought up Darius, not me. 2. Centering around a champ is bad if you can't get into position to use it effectively, which for Diana is a non-issue because of her ult. It's also bad since it places you in a vulnerable position, but that can be circumvented with your build/team responsiveness. 3. You need to read up on the mechanics of Talon's ulti. Talon's ulti doesn't cc and does damage based on how many blades they're hit by. Thus, the closer they are to Talon, the more damage they take. Unless the entire enemy team is stacked on top of one another (unlikely) they will take variable damage (usually minimal) based on how far away they are from Talon.
1. I make argument --> you make argument --> I say your argument is bad --> you say I make first argument so it's not your fault you make bad argument
2. Short range isn't bad for Annie. It would be if she doesn't have a stun available when someone dives her but since she can stun its not a problem.
3. I'm making a point about theorycraft --> realistic situations, you counter by saying talon ulti doesn't cc and how his damage works.
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On August 07 2012 16:14 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 16:05 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2012 16:01 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2012 15:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer.
Diana's is pb aoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy. 1) 475 range pull in an arc vs. 250 range in all directions. You continuously compare asymmetric things as if its obvious one is superior to the other. 2) centering around a character is a negative attribute no idea where you're getting at 3) Talon also has a good gap closer and an ult that has way way bigger aoe than her E, therefore his ult consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team while being able to assassinate a carry. That is based off the same logic you used, why doesn't it work? 1. You're the one who brought up Darius, not me. 2. Centering around a champ is bad if you can't get into position to use it effectively, which for Diana is a non-issue because of her ult. It's also bad since it places you in a vulnerable position, but that can be circumvented with your build/team responsiveness. 3. You need to read up on the mechanics of Talon's ulti. Talon's ulti doesn't cc and does damage based on how many blades they're hit by. Thus, the closer they are to Talon, the more damage they take. Unless the entire enemy team is stacked on top of one another (unlikely) they will take variable damage (usually minimal) based on how far away they are from Talon. 1. I make argument --> you make argument --> I say your argument is bad --> you say I make first argument so it's not your fault you make bad argument 2. Short range isn't bad for Annie. It would be if she doesn't have a stun available when someone dives her but since she can stun its not a problem. 3. I'm making a point about theorycraft --> realistic situations, you counter by saying talon ulti doesn't cc and how his damage works. 1. You're the one who "compare asymmetric things" when you brought up Darius. You said, and I quote "Seems pretty obvious to me it'll be like the significant of Darius E and nothing close to wall." I differentiated the two and explained why your comparison of Diana's E to Darius E is wrong.
2. A wild Annie appears! (Where the heck did Annie come from and how is that relevant to my argument about Diana's E being pbaoe being a non-issue?)
3. Your point about theorycraft is fundamentally flawed since you ignore how something works to justify your counter-argument. I'm explaining why your assertion that Talon's ulti "consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team" is wrong. I still don't understand what your flawed theorycraft of Talon's ulti has to do with how strong Diana's E will be.
The most ironic thing about all this? You're the one constantly bringing up other champions to compare Diana to despite you telling me to not "compare asymmetric things." I'm going to exit this debate since it's going nowhere. Everyone can see and decide for themselves how big and how impactful Diana's E will be based on the spotlight + PBE experience. She's being released like...tomorrow anyways.
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this is like reading sc2 balance whine, but not as entertaining
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Diana's E looks very strong, especially if there doesn't seem to be a way to get out of it. I thought it was just a gentle tug, where you could still attack, and do spells and shit...
Can't wait to see the 10+ vids of people doing ori+diana wombo combo.
looks pretty op'd. can't wait to see the nerfs.
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Looks like a little much to be honest. She'll likely still be strong in the right hands but it won't be nearly as easy to do well with her
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On August 07 2012 16:21 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 16:14 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2012 16:05 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 07 2012 16:01 Feartheguru wrote:On August 07 2012 15:55 Ryuu314 wrote: The difference is Darius's pull is a pretty small aoe that's a cone in front of him. He also has awful mobility with no gap closer.
Diana's is pb aoe centered around her. Combine that with the fact that she essentially has an ~800 range gap closer means that getting in position to maximize use of her E is very easy. 1) 475 range pull in an arc vs. 250 range in all directions. You continuously compare asymmetric things as if its obvious one is superior to the other. 2) centering around a character is a negative attribute no idea where you're getting at 3) Talon also has a good gap closer and an ult that has way way bigger aoe than her E, therefore his ult consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team while being able to assassinate a carry. That is based off the same logic you used, why doesn't it work? 1. You're the one who brought up Darius, not me. 2. Centering around a champ is bad if you can't get into position to use it effectively, which for Diana is a non-issue because of her ult. It's also bad since it places you in a vulnerable position, but that can be circumvented with your build/team responsiveness. 3. You need to read up on the mechanics of Talon's ulti. Talon's ulti doesn't cc and does damage based on how many blades they're hit by. Thus, the closer they are to Talon, the more damage they take. Unless the entire enemy team is stacked on top of one another (unlikely) they will take variable damage (usually minimal) based on how far away they are from Talon. 1. I make argument --> you make argument --> I say your argument is bad --> you say I make first argument so it's not your fault you make bad argument 2. Short range isn't bad for Annie. It would be if she doesn't have a stun available when someone dives her but since she can stun its not a problem. 3. I'm making a point about theorycraft --> realistic situations, you counter by saying talon ulti doesn't cc and how his damage works. 1. You're the one who "compare asymmetric things" when you brought up Darius. You said, and I quote "Seems pretty obvious to me it'll be like the significant of Darius E and nothing close to wall." I differentiated the two and explained why your comparison of Diana's E to Darius E is wrong. 2. A wild Annie appears! (Where the heck did Annie come from and how is that relevant to my argument about Diana's E being pbaoe being a non-issue?) 3. Your point about theorycraft is fundamentally flawed since you ignore how something works to justify your counter-argument. I'm explaining why your assertion that Talon's ulti "consistently does massive aoe damage to the entire team" is wrong. I still don't understand what your flawed theorycraft of Talon's ulti has to do with how strong Diana's E will be. The most ironic thing about all this? You're the one constantly bringing up other champions to compare Diana to despite you telling me to not "compare asymmetric things." I'm going to exit this debate since it's going nowhere. Everyone can see and decide for themselves how big and how impactful Diana's E will be based on the spotlight + PBE experience. She's being released like...tomorrow anyways.
1. I compared them as objectively as possible, simply stating one is superior does not "explain" why my comparison is wrong
2. If you cannot see the point of that statement, well, not sure what to say here
3. You theorize that with a dash you can consistently hit a large number of people with her E, I counter-theorize that talon can consistently hit a large number of people with his much larger ult after dashing with his own E.
I used a counter example, something I KNOW IS FALSE but is very similar to your example to show that your example is wrong. So responding to my statement by telling me what I said is wrong... well no poop its wrong.
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I also fail to see how Talon's ulti is in any way shape or form related to Diana's E.
They both have..a diameter. Dun dun duuun
Sorry, I had to :p this discussion last 2 pages has been ridiculous, can we move on?
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I am still waiting for the comparisons of the area the effect covers, complete with the "It covers a 50% larger area!"
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On August 07 2012 16:26 Perplex wrote:Looks like a little much to be honest. She'll likely still be strong in the right hands but it won't be nearly as easy to do well with her
The problem is that her E's speed is way too fast. This was not addressed. I think she will be roughly the same as before.
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Can we just agree to drop this inane and pointless subject?
Have people noticed recently, that majority of new champ releases have been retard proof? Like it was essentially impossible to fuck up playing a champion after like 1-2 games?
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On August 07 2012 16:49 wei2coolman wrote: Can we just agree to drop this inane and pointless subject?
Have people noticed recently, that majority of new champ releases have been retard proof? Like it was essentially impossible to fuck up playing a champion after like 1-2 games? Zyra is by no means retard proof. I haven't seen positioning mistakes of that scale on anyone else lately. And that's talking about pros playing her.
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On August 07 2012 16:00 HazMat wrote: Her E reminds me of D3 monk skill. Forgot the name but it's exactly the same. Cyclone strike, that shit was fun to pull mobs into your demon hunters. Zyra's ult is retardproof, it's liek huge and does insane damage. The champ itself not so much.
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