EPT[Patch 1.0.0.144: Diana] General Discussion - Page 38
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:37 Sufficiency wrote: No way. She is way more broken than Darius. Darius at least had some weaknesses. Zyra basically: - Good shove - Good CC (easy to land) - Good burst (EWWQ) - Good teamfight (R,E) - Good range - Low mana cost - Good wraith steal Thinking about it, you're probably right. Darius stomped lane, but could potentially get camped to death because he pushes lane without an escape. Her kit is just too good. High auto range(relative to most mids), retard proof combo that does absurd damage, difficult to gank because of her high range and quick, mana efficient clearing and CC, and post 6, has almost the same gank turnaround potential as cassiopeia. Biggest thing is definitely nerfing the snare speed though. IMO, single target spells should take 3 health, player autos 2, and everything else 1 health off of the plants. Also one stupid thing I found out today. If Zyra attacks you, and a plant is in range, it'll attack you, and even if you leave range and come back, it'll STILL shoot you. Really fucking stupid. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
On August 04 2012 19:50 Sufficiency wrote: As expected, Zyra is getting the nerf hammer (on PBE for now). http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/21168-pbe-patch-zyra-and-alistar-changes Zyra Base movement speed has been reduced to 300, down from 310. Rampant Growth - Extra plants striking the same target now deal 50% less damage. (Up from 25% less damage.) I don't know. I think her attack range also needs to be reduced and normalized to 550 or her E's speed should be reduced (way too fast right now). Her current power level (out only for 1 week with 60%+ winrate in ranked) seems to tell me that she needs really hard nerfs. The biggest problem is that her skillcap is really, really low. Her E is way too fast and easy to land, her movement speed is good, her AA range is awesome, her shove is great, her burst is very good (and easy, just mesh EWWQR at the same place) at very long range, and her teamfight is brain-dead easy. The two changes proposed are not even close to enough to make her balanced. Either her attack animation gets nerfed to the 575 range kennen slow autos or her range has to go down to 550. Right now she gets the best of both worlds with extra range and a snappy autoattack animation. She is skillshot based, yes but those skillshots are stupidly easy to hit compared to other skillshots out there. Her Q. Similar to Cass Q. Feels like it has a shorter delay before it hits, it's much harder to dodge. Her E. Similar to lux/morgana Q. Goes as fast or faster, cannot be blocked by minions, has the same amount of utility in any scenario regardless. Her R. Similar to annie R. About 10000x harder to fuck up and does not require flash to use effectively. Her ulti range should go down. Annie, who has a similar ranged AoE ulti has similar base values, the same AP ratio and a much smaller radius has a 600 range. Zyra's ulti has a larger radius, 800 range and gives a delayed knockup versus the stun and comes attached to a champion with a snare and just as much damage. Down to 600-650 range is what I see a reasonable range for it being. Another change that I think is pretty necessary is a mana cost to plant creation (10-15 mana per plant created). Right now, if she saves up two seeds and just pops them both with a combo, she has a ridiculously mana efficient harass. ~150-180 mana to bring your lane opponent down 60% of their health bar is pretty broken. I played a bit of annie today and looking at the numbers: Level 5: Zyra has QWEQQ, annie QWQWQ Annie: 165(+.7) from Q for 80 mana, 130(+.75) from W for 80 mana 160 mana, 295(+1.45) damage Calculated using the patch note values, she does even more damage at the moment. Zyra: 60(+.5) from E for 70 mana, 155(+.6) from Q for 85 mana, +84 (+.3) per plant attack 155 mana, 215 (+1.1) damage from casting the skills alone If the plants attack at all (pretty easy to get one attack off) 299 (+1.4) damage and that'll go up with any additional attacks that the plants get off (which is going to happen, most likely the plants will do another attack beyond that. Considering that that's with annie levelling pure damage skills while zyra has to spend a skill point into W which doesn't by itself grant damage, it seems rather broken. Another comparison with another champion that has similar skillset Lux, level 6 burst. Has snare, small AoE damage, nuking ultimate Using the combo QER>auto>E>auto 60 (+.7), 300 (+.75), 150(+.6), 3x illumination procs for 70 each (minimum one proc from the ulti) 580+(+2.05) +(up to 140, from two additional auto procs) 215 (+1.1) from above, 200 (+.7) from his ulti 415 (+1.9), +93(+.3) per autoattack If the plants can attack twice each (which is going to happen if you hit a snare +ulti), zyra bursts harder than lux doing a arguably easier to hit set of skills. If the plants hit three times each, she does as much damage as lux's max damage combo. Easier to play? Check. More damage? Check. Going to still be OP as fuck? Check. Darius was very strong on release, as was jayce. Zyra is blatantly overpowered. Safe in lane, burst, AoE, CC, sustained damage, she has it all. | ||
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
Nunu is amazing :D | ||
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Nehsb
United States380 Posts
On August 04 2012 20:54 -Zoda- wrote: The thing is find very stupid is the fact there is a "Decline" button. I'm okay having something to be sure the player is not afk/dced, but why would you make possible a missclick, and aren't players supposed to want to play when they queue... ? IIRC, a lot of people were complaining about someone queue dodging in ranked and then queue instapopping again and getting the same team that made someone queue dodge. So that's probably what the new system is supposed to address. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22199 Posts
And he isnt whining about it. He remarked it was really strange since no other LoL tournament in the world allows it, and tbh with good reason. Coaches during FPS games are normal but there isnt much to do there other then basic strats. Having a coach who can track cooldowns because he doesnt have to watch what his own champion is doing is huge. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On August 04 2012 22:31 Gorsameth wrote: You are aware Dignitas isnt even there right. Why should scarra read the rules for a tournament he isnt attending. And he isnt whining about it. He remarked it was really strange since no other LoL tournament in the world allows it, and tbh with good reason. Coaches during FPS games are normal but there isnt much to do there other then basic strats. Having a coach who can track cooldowns because he doesnt have to watch what his own champion is doing is huge. Yeah but that's the tournament's flaw (and thus MLG's), not Curse's. People should be raging at MLG for this rule. | ||
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Design post about Diana. One thing I found interesting: Volty: I consider her a fighter or assassin. What I mean by that is that other comparable assassins in the game, characters that can dive in quickly on a vulnerable target, generally have ways to avoid taking damage or get out of that sticky situation and Diana doesn’t have any of those things, but instead has durability. Her base durability is a little bit higher than you would expect for an assassin and Pale Cascade adds a lot of durability, specifically durability that comes with building Ability Power to begin with. We tested a lot of builds with Diana. Is it a full AP build or more tanky with more inherited ability from items? We believe the most potent build is the full AP build, which I’m happy about because that reinforces Pale Cascade. We've talked a bit about builds on here, and I remember there being a couple proponents for full AP builds. However, since her shield is on a 10 second CD with only a .4 scaling, I don't think I'd really say pure AP makes her too tanky. Am I just imagining this math wrong? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 04 2012 15:26 Ryuu314 wrote: lol all you people overreacting about a 30 damage nerf to alistar's W at level 1. You didn't take support Ali for his damage anyways. You took him for his retarded cc, minor sustain, and extreme tankability w/out any items. Support ali maxed w/e the fuck he wanted. E for more sustain, Q for less cd on knockback, W for a little more damage. This is a nerf to jungle/roaming Ali more than anything. Every little bit counts. The nerfs are gradual and just keep coming. And when you invest dozens of games as one champion to learn how to play them, and then riot just throws 4/5 nerfs on them... you may not see the impact on a game to game basis, but you know it's there otherwise riot wouldn't do them. The rammus nerfs were gradual and slow. V1.0.0.136: Stats: Base armor reduced to 20.8 from 24.8. Base attack damage reduced to 53.5 from 58.8. Right clicking while using Powerball will now move you close enough to hit the target. V1.0.0.134: Defensive Ball Curl armor and magic resist values reduced to 40/60/80/100/120 from 50/75/100/125/150. V1.0.0.133: Minor tweak to Rammus' dance to actually rotate around his center axis when on his back. V1.0.0.132: Powerball: Duration reduced to 7 from 8. Initial bonus movement speed increased to 30% from 25%. Defensive Ball Curl damage return reduced to 15/25/35/45/55 from 20/30/40/50/60. And now he just feels so much weaker than before in the jungle. I don't think he gets played at all in the featured games list. He clears slower. He has a harder time catching people in ganks. He has less sustain. He even has less damage. He went from permabanned in my games to never played. I don't even play rammus anymore even though before he was so fun. I hear the same thing happened to kayle. Tons of people liked playing kayle. Then the remake happened and no one played her: V1.0.0.122: General New model and animations! Community contest "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" /dance animation Attack damage per level reduced to 2.5 from 3 Attack speed per level reduced to 2 from 2.3 Recommended items updated Holy Fervor New Passive: Kayle's basic attacks against enemy champions now reduce their armor and magic resistance by 2% for 5 seconds (stacks up to 5 times) Reckoning Missile speed increased to 1300 from 1000 Ability power ratio increased to 1.0 from 0.8 Mana cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 80/85/90/95/100 Slow increased to 35% from 25% Damage amplification reduced to 5% from 8/10/12/14/16% Righteous Fury Cooldown reduced to 16 seconds from 22/21/20/19/18 seconds Bonus damage increased to 20/30/40/50/60 from 4/10/16/22/28 Increased splash range to 300 from 200 Ability power ratio decreased to .2 to .3 Mana cost reduced to 45 from 65 Divine Blessing Base heal adjusted to 45/85/125/165/205 from 65/100/135/170/205 Movement speed duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 10 seconds Movement speed boost increased to 15/17/19/21/23% from 12% Ability power ratio reduced to .35 from .5 Cooldown increased to 15 seconds from 10 seconds I wasn't around when kayle got remade but I'm not sure if I would main her if I played her all the time and suddenly my build with her lost all its oomph. All these nerfs have a huge impact not only on the champions but also on the players. It frustrates anyone who had a champion whose playstyle they really liked, when they have to start all over on a new champion. Also I understand why kayle was remade the third time. AoE splash damage that scaled on AP and AD causes pentakill scenarios but now they nerf alistar who gets no pentakills and it doesn't even seem justified. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:31 Requizen wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-scorn-moon Design post about Diana. One thing I found interesting: We've talked a bit about builds on here, and I remember there being a couple proponents for full AP builds. However, since her shield is on a 10 second CD with only a .4 scaling, I don't think I'd really say pure AP makes her too tanky. Am I just imagining this math wrong? Shield lasts 4 seconds. If all three orbs detonate, shield refreshes. That's an additional 4 seconds. So 8 second shield total on a 10 second CD with no CDR. That sounds really good to me. The defensive AP style builds (Abyssal+Zhonyas) looks like it'd be pretty sick especially since her base stats and base stat growth looks good. Expensive though. You also have to remember that her ult has no CD if you can chain it with Q (while Q has a 6 sec CD with no CDR). There's a lot of AoE burst potential here, especially with some CDR. I'm wondering if Abyssal+Glacial is going to be the way to go. Auras seem like they synergise really well with her. | ||
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Arekan
United States248 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:31 Requizen wrote: We've talked a bit about builds on here, and I remember there being a couple proponents for full AP builds. However, since her shield is on a 10 second CD with only a .4 scaling, I don't think I'd really say pure AP makes her too tanky. Am I just imagining this math wrong? After trying tank builds versus full AP on PBE, I definitely prefer tank builds. My favorite build with her so far has been boots3 > philo > kage > merc/tabi > wit's > glacial as core then usually ended up with mercs, wit's, FH, Abyssal, DFG, and GA not necessarily in that order. | ||
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
On August 04 2012 22:39 Doctorbeat wrote: Yeah but that's the tournament's flaw (and thus MLG's), not Curse's. People should be raging at MLG for this rule. I can confirm that the only people in the OGN booths are the referee's and anyone else on the inside is required to be completely silent aswell as that they usually dont allow anyone on the inside (example WE's manager/coach were watching from right outside during their group stage but didnt actually interact with the players) when they are in the booths they are on their own. As for MLG I do not like it. Having someone outside of the players who is used for map awareness etc isnt really anything else than throwing money at a problem that players should be focusing on themselves. And teams who cant afford a coach to sit behind and do it will suddenly fall behind because of that? Besides another problem was that due to how MLG laid it out SV had to have 1 ear phone out to hear said coach (if my source is correct) which means that when you are in shouting distance of the other team can provide a way to hear stuff you shouldnt. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:42 MoonBear wrote: Shield lasts 4 seconds. If all three orbs detonate, shield refreshes. That's an additional 4 seconds. So 8 second shield total on a 10 second CD with no CDR. That sounds really good to me. The defensive AP style builds (Abyssal+Zhonyas) looks like it'd be pretty sick especially since her base stats and base stat growth looks good. Expensive though. You also have to remember that her ult has no CD if you can chain it with Q (while Q has a 6 sec CD with no CDR). There's a lot of AoE burst potential here, especially with some CDR. I'm wondering if Abyssal+Glacial is going to be the way to go. Auras seem like they synergise really well with her. I think that'll be my preferred build as well, tanky AP getting the best of both worlds. Grats on 5k! | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:42 MoonBear wrote: Shield lasts 4 seconds. If all three orbs detonate, shield refreshes. That's an additional 4 seconds. So 8 second shield total on a 10 second CD with no CDR. That sounds really good to me. The defensive AP style builds (Abyssal+Zhonyas) looks like it'd be pretty sick especially since her base stats and base stat growth looks good. Expensive though. A question about her shield: does "refreshes" means it adds back an additional 4 seconds to the duration, or that it simply resets to 4 second duration? Because if it's the latter that means that I'd expect 6 seconds of duration out of shield+refresh, rather than 8. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:46 Arekan wrote: After trying tank builds versus full AP on PBE, I definitely prefer tank builds. My favorite build with her so far has been boots3 > philo > kage > merc/tabi > wit's > glacial as core then usually ended up with mercs, wit's, FH, Abyssal, DFG, and GA not necessarily in that order. Agreed. I'm divided on wit's end, though. Kage's is nice but I'm not convinced on philo (no need for shurelia's, and I want some damage earlier) I really liked sheen. A lot. It works great with the way you get autos off in bursts and the fact that your skills are low cooldown, but you have no reason to faceroll them all at once Also, Q over wall -> R onto jungle camp and you pop the camp in 3 autos (may or may not have to W depending on camp/when it is in the game), its glorious. Clear times are really good. You can also Q while walking up to a camp pre-6 to get it off cd faster. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:55 MoonBear wrote: I got 5k ages ago lol. But no one can read it because it's hidden zzz How do you still have an average of over 8 posts a day despite not posting for months you fknoob On August 05 2012 01:55 TheYango wrote: A question about her shield: does "refreshes" means it adds back an additional 4 seconds to the duration, or that it simply resets to 4 second duration? Because if it's the latter that means that I'd expect 6 seconds of duration out of shield+refresh, rather than 8. Hm. I believe it refreshes the duration of 4 seconds from the moment all three detonate. So yeah, a full 8 seconds seems unrealistic. That said however, with max CDR your W becomes 6 seconds CD. And if we say all three orbs get popped within 2 seconds, that's still pretty much your W with 100% uptime. | ||
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