EPT[Patch 1.0.0.144: Diana] General Discussion - Page 39
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:57 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: How do you still have an average of over 8 posts a day despite not posting for months you fknoob. Chiharu quoting Moonbear. I so confuse. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:00 TheYango wrote: Another question: If your shield gets popped before all 3 orbs can detonate, does detonating the 3 orbs still refresh the shield? My understanding is that it should. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:31 Requizen wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-scorn-moon Design post about Diana. One thing I found interesting: We've talked a bit about builds on here, and I remember there being a couple proponents for full AP builds. However, since her shield is on a 10 second CD with only a .4 scaling, I don't think I'd really say pure AP makes her too tanky. Am I just imagining this math wrong? It's 0.4 twice if you get the refresh, bringing it to 0.8. That's fairly decent scaling, but you'll probably want to build more like Morgana or Swain if you're planning on diving into the enemy team without a thought for position or CDs. On August 05 2012 01:31 obesechicken13 wrote: Every little bit counts. The nerfs are gradual and just keep coming. And when you invest dozens of games as one champion to learn how to play them, and then riot just throws 4/5 nerfs on them... you may not see the impact on a game to game basis, but you know it's there otherwise riot wouldn't do them. The rammus nerfs were gradual and slow. From lol wiki And now he just feels so much weaker than before in the jungle. I don't think he gets played at all in the featured games list. He clears slower. He has a harder time catching people in ganks. He has less sustain. He even has less damage. He went from permabanned in my games to never played. I don't even play rammus anymore even though before he was so fun. Rammus was never really banworthy even before his nerfs. He went on permaban status for the same reason people ban Shaco, annoying to play against and your teammates will feed them for no good reason. Up to 132 Rammus was still fine. What really killed him was 136. At that point people had started to figure out how good Alistar and Nautilus were at jungling, in particular because they could level their clearing tools without weakening their ganks or reducing their tankiness. Even without randomly smashing his base AD and armor, Rammus would have faded away. The fundamental problem for Rammus at this point is that if you level your W first to clear faster your Taunt only lasts 1 second. Even though you'll be practically immortal in mid-game team fights with max W, that's not very useful if no one bothers to fight you. It might work, but it's a major playstyle shift and would probably require building more like a bruiser than the tanky-cc support jungler people tend to look for. | ||
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Arekan
United States248 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:56 sylverfyre wrote: Agreed. I'm divided on wit's end, though. Kage's is nice but I'm not convinced on philo (no need for shurelia's, and I want some damage earlier) I really liked sheen. A lot. It works great with the way you get autos off in bursts and the fact that your skills are low cooldown, but you have no reason to faceroll them all at once Also, Q over wall -> R onto jungle camp and you pop the camp in 3 autos (may or may not have to W depending on camp/when it is in the game), its glorious. Clear times are really good. You can also Q while walking up to a camp pre-6 to get it off cd faster. I like wit's end because it allows for the sacrifice in AP that the tankier builds make by making the passive proc that much more often.I'll probably end up dropping philo, as it was only there out habit more than anything else.I liked sheen as well, I might start grabbing it instead of philo, after kage's or boot upgrade. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:31 obesechicken13 wrote: Every little bit counts. The nerfs are gradual and just keep coming. And when you invest dozens of games as one champion to learn how to play them, and then riot just throws 4/5 nerfs on them... you may not see the impact on a game to game basis, but you know it's there otherwise riot wouldn't do them. + Show Spoiler + The rammus nerfs were gradual and slow. V1.0.0.136: Stats: Base armor reduced to 20.8 from 24.8. Base attack damage reduced to 53.5 from 58.8. Right clicking while using Powerball will now move you close enough to hit the target. V1.0.0.134: Defensive Ball Curl armor and magic resist values reduced to 40/60/80/100/120 from 50/75/100/125/150. V1.0.0.133: Minor tweak to Rammus' dance to actually rotate around his center axis when on his back. V1.0.0.132: Powerball: Duration reduced to 7 from 8. Initial bonus movement speed increased to 30% from 25%. Defensive Ball Curl damage return reduced to 15/25/35/45/55 from 20/30/40/50/60. And now he just feels so much weaker than before in the jungle. I don't think he gets played at all in the featured games list. He clears slower. He has a harder time catching people in ganks. He has less sustain. He even has less damage. He went from permabanned in my games to never played. I don't even play rammus anymore even though before he was so fun. I hear the same thing happened to kayle. Tons of people liked playing kayle. Then the remake happened and no one played her: V1.0.0.122: General New model and animations! Community contest "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" /dance animation Attack damage per level reduced to 2.5 from 3 Attack speed per level reduced to 2 from 2.3 Recommended items updated Holy Fervor New Passive: Kayle's basic attacks against enemy champions now reduce their armor and magic resistance by 2% for 5 seconds (stacks up to 5 times) Reckoning Missile speed increased to 1300 from 1000 Ability power ratio increased to 1.0 from 0.8 Mana cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 80/85/90/95/100 Slow increased to 35% from 25% Damage amplification reduced to 5% from 8/10/12/14/16% Righteous Fury Cooldown reduced to 16 seconds from 22/21/20/19/18 seconds Bonus damage increased to 20/30/40/50/60 from 4/10/16/22/28 Increased splash range to 300 from 200 Ability power ratio decreased to .2 to .3 Mana cost reduced to 45 from 65 Divine Blessing Base heal adjusted to 45/85/125/165/205 from 65/100/135/170/205 Movement speed duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 10 seconds Movement speed boost increased to 15/17/19/21/23% from 12% Ability power ratio reduced to .35 from .5 Cooldown increased to 15 seconds from 10 seconds I wasn't around when kayle got remade but I'm not sure if I would main her if I played her all the time and suddenly my build with her lost all its oomph. All these nerfs have a huge impact not only on the champions but also on the players. It frustrates anyone who had a champion whose playstyle they really liked, when they have to start all over on a new champion. Also I understand why kayle was remade the third time. AoE splash damage that scaled on AP and AD causes pentakill scenarios but now they nerf alistar who gets no pentakills and it doesn't even seem justified. The Rammus nerfs are considerably more significant that the PBE Alistar nerfs. When Riot nerfed Rammus's powerball, he was still a top tier pick despite losing popularity for a few short months. He finally became unplayed/shitty when Riot nerfed his W and base armor stats. This is much more significant than nerfing Alistar's damage. Alistar's role is NOT to deal damage. His role is to provide extreme amounts of disruption and peel. Dealing some damage helps him do his role of a disruption champ better, but it's very secondary to his play. In contrast, Rammus required some base level of survivability in order to jungle. Riot hit that hard. His base armor was reduced by 25% and his W buff was hit by 20%. Rammus already was vulnerable to counterjungling by strong early game champions like Shyvanna and Lee Sin. By nerfing those areas, Riot basically amplified Rammus's weaknesses, making him even more exploitable. In contrast, Alistar nerfs don't exaggerate his weaknesses like the Rammus nerfs did. Lastly, Rammus is seeing much less play because champions were released/got popular that did his job of constant lane pressure much better. He never achieved particularly amazing results in tournament play anyways. Kayle was straight up nerfed on her remake, but she was slowly getting FotM status. She was remade partially because her old passive was pretty damn ridiculous, but also because Riot had the intention of phasing out what they considered archaic mechanics, notably hybrid, free gold passives. | ||
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Arekan
United States248 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:03 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: My understanding is that it should. It currently does on the PBE. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:05 Seuss wrote: The fundamental problem for Rammus at this point is that if you level your W first to clear faster your Taunt only lasts 1 second. Even though you'll be practically immortal in mid-game team fights with max W, that's not very useful if no one bothers to fight you. It might work, but it's a major playstyle shift and would probably require building more like a bruiser than the tanky-cc support jungler people tend to look for. TBH not enough people really played around with Q-max on Rammus. It actually offers a good balance between clearing speed and gank strength (50 damage per rank is pretty aggressive scaling for both jungling and for ganking, as well as the increased slow %). I haven't played that much Rammus recently, but from what I tried, it felt reasonably smooth. The drawback is that you don't have higher Taunt or DBC ranks for midgame fights, but trying to tune the number of ranks you get of Powerball (somewhere like 2-4) could work out reasonably. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:31 obesechicken13 wrote: And now he just feels so much weaker than before in the jungle. I don't think he gets played at all in the featured games list. He clears slower. He has a harder time catching people in ganks. He has less sustain. He even has less damage. He went from permabanned in my games to never played. It's because Rammus was perfectly fine, but then they randomly give him an additional nerf. It's pretty typical for Riot to be late to the party on nerfing what needs nerfing and then either change the wrong thing or keep making changes well beyond the point where they're still needed. Consider that most of their balance team are very low Elo players and you'll understand why they have such a hard time understanding how strong a champion actually is. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 05 2012 01:55 TheYango wrote: Resets duration back to 4 sec. Also resets the shield back up to full, so a properly used shield is effectively 0.8AP ratio.A question about her shield: does "refreshes" means it adds back an additional 4 seconds to the duration, or that it simply resets to 4 second duration? Because if it's the latter that means that I'd expect 6 seconds of duration out of shield+refresh, rather than 8. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:30 Craton wrote: It's because Rammus was perfectly fine, but then they randomly give him an additional nerf. It's pretty typical for Riot to be late to the party on nerfing what needs nerfing and then either change the wrong thing or keep making changes well beyond the point where they're still needed. Consider that most of their balance team are very low Elo players and you'll understand why they have such a hard time understanding how strong a champion actually is. I noticed that since Jatt joined their team they've actually been a lot better about nerfing/buffing. Most patches have relatively small tweaks nowadays rather than big overnerfs or overbuffs. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:12 TheYango wrote: TBH not enough people really played around with Q-max on Rammus. It actually offers a good balance between clearing speed and gank strength (50 damage per rank is pretty aggressive scaling for both jungling and for ganking, as well as the increased slow %). I haven't played that much Rammus recently, but from what I tried, it felt reasonably smooth. The drawback is that you don't have higher Taunt or DBC ranks for midgame fights, but trying to tune the number of ranks you get of Powerball (somewhere like 2-4) could work out reasonably. The other drawback is that rank 5 Q costs almost three times as much mana as any rank of W. While the damage is frontloaded, it isn't significantly more than rank 5 W, and against creeps that hit you 5 times instead of 4 it's actually less once you have 50 armor or more. Still, it's pretty odd that you don't see many Rammus/Sejuani/Cho'gath jungle picks in the higher Elos considering they're next up on the tanky-cc support chain when Alistar, Nautilus, and Malphite are banned. Maybe old-style Rammus is bad/wouldn't work, but no one's really even bothering to figure out something that would. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:37 Seuss wrote: The other drawback is that rank 5 Q costs almost three times as much mana as any rank of W. While the damage is frontloaded, it isn't significantly more than rank 5 W, and against creeps that hit you 5 times instead of 4 it's actually less once you have 50 armor or more. Still, it's pretty odd that you don't see many Rammus/Sejuani/Cho'gath jungle picks in the higher Elos considering they're next up on the tanky-cc support chain when Alistar, Nautilus, and Malphite are banned. Maybe old-style Rammus is bad/wouldn't work, but no one's really even bothering to figure out something that would. Rammus gets counter jungled really darn hard. He's extremely weak in the early game and unless you pick him up after the enemy team grabs their jungler you run the risk of running into a bad jungle matchup. Sejuani has super slow clear first few levels. She can insta-clear small camps after a while, but even when fed, it's kinda hard to carry with her. Still, I'm surprised she's not played more at a high level. Altho I think HSGG said that CLG.na was toying around with the idea of using her in the OGN tourney. He said she was the next fotm. But then against it's HS so iunno. Cho'gath I think should see more play now imo. I think it was HSGG who said that Cho was good except for the unreliability of his cast times. Since Riot normalized his cast times he might see more play now? | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:44 Hakanfrog wrote: Fuck riot so dumb, why don´t they just buff the other supports instead of nerfing Janna and Soraka in every fucking patch? Every single support in the game except Leona has been nerfed significantly since their inception. To just clarify, every single support (cept Leona) has been fucking broken at some point another. It just so happens that Janna has avoided the ban hammer for a while and it's finally her turn. Soraka is just a problematic kit. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:41 Ryuu314 wrote: Rammus gets counter jungled really darn hard. He's extremely weak in the early game and unless you pick him up after the enemy team grabs their jungler you run the risk of running into a bad jungle matchup. Sejuani has super slow clear first few levels. She can insta-clear small camps after a while, but even when fed, it's kinda hard to carry with her. Cho'gath I think should see more play now imo. I think it was HSGG who said that Cho was good except for the unreliability of his cast times. Since Riot normalized his cast times he might see more play now? A lot of Rammus' early weakness was because he forsook both defenses and clear speed for his CC, and also because at the time of his nerfs the popular junglers were mostly fast-clearing super farmers like Shyvana, Udyr, and the like. While people stuck in that mindset might be avoiding him for that reason, someone experimenting along either of the lines of inquiry TheYango and I have discussed wouldn't necessarily have those same issues. In my experience the problem with Sejuani's early clear isn't speed so much as survivability. She can't really start boots and clear safely without a very significant leash. Her actual clear time isn't super slow. Sejuani's probably not popular because of that survivability issue and because it's hard for people to get over how much better Nautilus is before late-game. Cho'gath is definitely the most likely to become popular, especially since he was buffed. Maokai isn't super popular because he's only as good late-game as your ability to intelligently place his ultimate. His initiation is also very suicidal, and if your team decides "nope" you're screwed and everyone calls you a bad Maokai and reports you after the game for being terrible/trolling/etc. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35150 Posts
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Qualm
721 Posts
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Phil4994
United States143 Posts
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