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On August 10 2012 03:53 TheKefka wrote:
Yea I know her Q does that but I just randomly opened zekents stream and someone said E does it as well.
Maybe I heard it wrong...That would be pretty op.
Pretty sure it was you know, an idiot who said so.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2012 03:53 TheKefka wrote:
Yea I know her Q does that but I just randomly opened zekents stream and someone said E does it as well.
Maybe I heard it wrong...That would be pretty op.
E doesn't apply on-hit effects at all.
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Yea I know that's why I was confused,I thought maybe it's a bug that charges a proc at a E cast and than it procs again on the auto,so twice on a single auto.
I guess it's not true tho.
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On August 10 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:45 Gahlo wrote:On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it? Is it me or does this whole discussion feel like a miscommunication? I don't think anybody is arguing against the tanky AP Aura whore build where the only "pure" tank item is FH. Actually, I am. I'm arguing in favor of pure AP items, focusing on building Diana damage-oriented rather than tanky AP oriented. Sheen, Guise, and DRings are my early/mid game items of choice, maybe throwing in Hextech Revolver (haven't tried it, don't quote me on that one yet). I'm advocating against things like Glacial and Aegis on her. The only tanky AP/aura item I think is good for her is Abyssal. That said, if I sound like I'm coming off too argumentative and ignorant, please let me know. I'm trying to keep this rational and conversational, I'd hate to turn anything into a flame war.
Then I guess we need to be more clear in what our definitions are. XD
I go, in no order, boots2/Abyssal/DFG/FH/Lichbane/WotA or Rylais
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On August 10 2012 03:58 TheKefka wrote:
Yea I know that's why I was confused,I thought maybe it's a bug that charges a proc at a E cast and than it procs again on the auto,so twice on a single auto.
I guess it's not true tho.
Targets with the active E debuff get proced for 15% of E's damage when Shyvana autoattacks them. This can look like a wits proc.
Shit, doubled.
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dunno why spellvamp, her shiled is massive after hat and all her abilities aside from R are classified as AoE.
my midlane build is boots+3, ringx2, abyssal, boots2, dcap, giants belt,Glacial, Chalice(haven't gotten further than this without winning but the plan is), Finish Rylai, finish heart, Finish Athene's.
I also take all 3 camps when I have blue (opposing wraith, my wraith, wolves) snowball the lane thru 50+ cs leads
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Well, I can't really find a 6th item that I like, becasue everything but her ult also applies the smaller slow from rylais. I'd liek to chagne it to Dcap but I don't think I'll ever get to finish it.
Did I mention that I jungle her?
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Rylais mainly for hp, you could go randuin instead of hear but with my build you are depending on the shield to live, so you need blue + 1 item or 2 items to get that 6 sec shield cd, Litchbane for instance makes 100% logical sense on her, but cdr is required if you aren't going tanky imo.
which is part of what the Yango is getting at, this build out of the jungle would be horribly behind in survivability, what makes it work mid is you can farm so hard they can't build enough ap to break your shield.
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United States2233 Posts
Deathcap is really useful on Diana if you can afford to get it while jungling. I'm never hurting on cs because you clear so darn fast and fast enough to invade and steal the enemy jungle as well.
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On August 10 2012 04:14 Slusher wrote:
Rylais mainly for hp, you could go randuin instead of hear but with my build you are depending on the shield to live, so you need blue + 1 item or 2 items to get that 6 sec shield cd, Litchbane for instance makes 100% logical sense on her, but cdr is required if you aren't going tanky imo.
which is part of what the Yango is getting at, this build out of the jungle would be horribly behind in survivability, what makes it work mid is you can farm so hard they can't build enough ap to break your shield.
Like I said, I'm not really set on a 6th item yet, and without it I end up with ~190armor/175MR on top of her shield. Yango was the one touting a more defensive aura build than making a big pile of AP.
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On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?
You're severely overestimating Amumu's base damage and underestimating Diana's. Here's some math for you:
Target Health: 1500
MR Ignored (We'll multiply Amumu's damage by 1.25 to account for his passive)
Jungler Level: 11
Amumu:
Passive: 1.25 multiplier.
Q (Rank 3): 200 damage per 12 seconds : 16.7 DPS
W (Rank 1): 8+1.5% max health every second : 30.5 DPS
E (Rank 5): 175 damage per 4-6 seconds : 29.2 - 43.8 DPS
Total DPS: 95.5 - 113.7 DPS
Diana:
Passive: 140 damage per 3 auto-attacks (roughly every 3 seconds). : 46.7 DPS
Q (Rank 5): 260 damage per 6 seconds : 43.3 DPS
W (Rank 3): 156 damage per 10 seconds : 15.6 DPS
R (Rank 2): 160 damage every 6 seconds : 26.7 DPS
Total DPS: 132.3 DPS
To put this into perspective combat would have to last, on average, less than 10 seconds for the damage on Amumu's ultimate to even out the two. Even at 18, and accounting for higher health values, she still has parity with Amumu. Comparing Amumu to Diana may be an apples to oranges comparison, but it's fairly clear that Diana's base damage isn't as bad as you have continuously asserted.
It's incidentally very hard to maintain enough AP to blow someone up. Even a solo lane LeBlanc, arguably the best champion in the game for that purpose, eventually runs into trouble. By the end of the game the combination of teamfighting and increased health/MR makes insta-gibbing someone impossible unless they're severely underfarmed or unsupported. Unless you get fed on Diana you will not be able to build enough AP to safely explode people.
Which brings us back to what I postulated previously. My impression is that you're playing against opponents who are uncoordinated, unfocused, underfarmed, and easy to pick off. Against such opponents I would, without a second thought, go all out on assassination and just blow up everything for easy Elo.
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I really don't like how Scarra randomly goes "x player is going x on x hero, I really don't like that."
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On August 10 2012 04:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:45 Gahlo wrote:On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it? Is it me or does this whole discussion feel like a miscommunication? I don't think anybody is arguing against the tanky AP Aura whore build where the only "pure" tank item is FH. Actually, I am. I'm arguing in favor of pure AP items, focusing on building Diana damage-oriented rather than tanky AP oriented. Sheen, Guise, and DRings are my early/mid game items of choice, maybe throwing in Hextech Revolver (haven't tried it, don't quote me on that one yet). I'm advocating against things like Glacial and Aegis on her. The only tanky AP/aura item I think is good for her is Abyssal. That said, if I sound like I'm coming off too argumentative and ignorant, please let me know. I'm trying to keep this rational and conversational, I'd hate to turn anything into a flame war. Then I guess we need to be more clear in what our definitions are. XD I go, in no order, boots2/Abyssal/DFG/FH/Lichbane/WotA or Rylais
J/W, isn't it advantageous to the Abyssal earliest? It seems to drop off compared, and thats what I usually do on the Mummy (also I don't see how you afford Deathcap but that horse is dead).
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On August 10 2012 05:47 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:01 Gahlo wrote:On August 10 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:45 Gahlo wrote:On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it? Is it me or does this whole discussion feel like a miscommunication? I don't think anybody is arguing against the tanky AP Aura whore build where the only "pure" tank item is FH. Actually, I am. I'm arguing in favor of pure AP items, focusing on building Diana damage-oriented rather than tanky AP oriented. Sheen, Guise, and DRings are my early/mid game items of choice, maybe throwing in Hextech Revolver (haven't tried it, don't quote me on that one yet). I'm advocating against things like Glacial and Aegis on her. The only tanky AP/aura item I think is good for her is Abyssal. That said, if I sound like I'm coming off too argumentative and ignorant, please let me know. I'm trying to keep this rational and conversational, I'd hate to turn anything into a flame war. Then I guess we need to be more clear in what our definitions are. XD I go, in no order, boots2/Abyssal/DFG/FH/Lichbane/WotA or Rylais J/W, isn't it advantageous to the Abyssal earliest? It seems to drop off compared, and thats what I usually do on the Mummy (also I don't see how you afford Deathcap but that horse is dead).
Yes, it is.
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On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?
How the designers wanted her to be built and she should be built are two entirely different things. Since she fits the "assassin" archetype, it's clear they wanted her to be an AP assassin similar to akali. However, her E is such fantastic utility that it's much better to just build tanky aura items on her and some AP to still be a threat to their carrys.
If you build her as a glass cannon against a team that is even somewhat coordinated, you won't be effective at all unless you're fed. If you have enough tankiness to use E multiple times while dancing through the fight with ult and dealing sustained damage or zoning/killing their carrys, then you're getting somewhere.
Your idea of building "blow shit up" power would only really work well in lower elo (unless you're just a much better player and can snowball the game to a win with ganks before team fights really start to matter ex: scarra smurfing 1800's).
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Finally out of meetings, seems I'm highly in the minority in my opinions. Interesting, but not unprecedented. My low ELO probably does have quite a bit to do with it.
Ah well, she's obviously not been out long enough to know everything, and my skill is for sure on the lower end around here.
That said, maybe it was my specific builds that made my tanky AP Diana games feel weak. What would a consensus be on a build for her then? I did something like Sheen/Guise/Chalice/Glacial is no specific order, and just never felt like my damage or toughness was anything special. Could be I should go abyssal faster over Chalice for MR, and skip Guise or something. Thoughts?
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I'm really liking Philo/Kages into Abyssal into FH then changing it up depending on the game. I have been getting Mercs or Sorcs, DFG/DC/Rylais/Shurelyas
I just dunno what I feel is best
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United States15536 Posts
I'm about to do a game with her, and I'm going to try b3 -> kages -> codex -> glacial -> abyssal -> sheen -> FH or something along those lines. I'll let you know how it goes.
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On August 10 2012 06:20 Bladeorade wrote:
I'm really liking Philo/Kages into Abyssal into FH then changing it up depending on the game. I have been getting Mercs or Sorcs, DFG/DC/Rylais/Shurelyas
I just dunno what I feel is best
My issue with something like that, is that Abyssal isn't exactly cheap, so you're sitting on boots and 2 GP10s (I stopped getting Philo, btw, never felt a need for the health and her mp5 wasn't exactly keeping her topped off) while waiting for that. Do you feel that you can skip midgame AP items and still keep up while saving for 2650?
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From what it sounds like is diana needs more farm, than what the jungle can offer.
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