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On August 10 2012 03:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:16 Zdrastochye wrote:
That's only a product of people having tanky champs jungling, but not always what's needed. If you have great initiators in your solos (Galio, Kennen, Malphite etc) you can get away with throwing in a second damage item after wriggles before going tanky. Yes you do need to beef up on all melee champs, but choosing tankiness over damage is really only because of the gp10 get fat meta and have a jungler with tons of cc (looking at you Nauty boy) engaging for you.
You're vastly underestimating the scariness of a jungler who can wreck people mid game. Makes objectives too easy if people have their ults up. If you can afford to get damage items on a jungler, you should question whether you should have gotten that much farm in the first place. The nature of multiplicative damage scaling is that a damage item on a carry that already has 1-2 damage items is scarier than on a jungler who's just buying his first damage item.
And the nature of playing a champion who has a great mid game with only damage items at that point makes them even scarier. As long as you don't get caught your team shouldn't be losing team fights without you being a sink for all the team's cc. Even then you might still get one before you go down. High risk high reward.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, you just did the math, that gp10 quints are worth it after 18minutes. So what your saying is, if you don't lose in18 minutes, then i can just itemize all the ap I don't have due to the opportunity cost of gp10 quints.
That's ignoring the fact that 15 AP at 0 minutes is inherently worth more than 15 AP at 18 minutes.
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On August 10 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, you just did the math, that gp10 quints are worth it after 18minutes. So what your saying is, if you don't lose in18 minutes, then i can just itemize all the ap I don't have due to the opportunity cost of gp10 quints. That's ignoring the fact that 15 AP at 0 minutes is inherently worth more than 15 AP at 18 minutes.
true, but it also ignores the fact that earlier gp10 item snowballs the gp10 quints.
gp10 snowball meta 2 stronk.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2012 03:23 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:20 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 03:16 Zdrastochye wrote:
That's only a product of people having tanky champs jungling, but not always what's needed. If you have great initiators in your solos (Galio, Kennen, Malphite etc) you can get away with throwing in a second damage item after wriggles before going tanky. Yes you do need to beef up on all melee champs, but choosing tankiness over damage is really only because of the gp10 get fat meta and have a jungler with tons of cc (looking at you Nauty boy) engaging for you.
You're vastly underestimating the scariness of a jungler who can wreck people mid game. Makes objectives too easy if people have their ults up. If you can afford to get damage items on a jungler, you should question whether you should have gotten that much farm in the first place. The nature of multiplicative damage scaling is that a damage item on a carry that already has 1-2 damage items is scarier than on a jungler who's just buying his first damage item. And the nature of playing a champion who has a great mid game with only damage items at that point makes them even scarier. As long as you don't get caught your team shouldn't be losing team fights without you being a sink for all the team's cc. Even then you might still get one before you go down. High risk high reward.
If you're talking midgame teamfights, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the value of any aura item outweighs the value of an individual damage item, simply because of how high the relative value of the aura stats are at that point.
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On August 10 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, you just did the math, that gp10 quints are worth it after 18minutes. So what your saying is, if you don't lose in18 minutes, then i can just itemize all the ap I don't have due to the opportunity cost of gp10 quints. That's ignoring the fact that 15 AP at 0 minutes is inherently worth more than 15 AP at 18 minutes.
Also ignoring the fact that most supports don't scale particularly well off of AP [anymore]
Back when their AP ratios were not entirely in the gutter, I was running flat AP on them much more often. Now you get so little, I just can't justify AP quints on support except maybe Janna?
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On August 10 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, you just did the math, that gp10 quints are worth it after 18minutes. So what your saying is, if you don't lose in18 minutes, then i can just itemize all the ap I don't have due to the opportunity cost of gp10 quints. That's ignoring the fact that 15 AP at 0 minutes is inherently worth more than 15 AP at 18 minutes. true, but it also ignores the fact that earlier gp10 item snowballs the gp10 quints. gp10 snowball meta 2 stronk.
What? This makes no sense.
gp5 quints become less effective the more gp5 items you have.
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On August 10 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Wait, you just did the math, that gp10 quints are worth it after 18minutes. So what your saying is, if you don't lose in18 minutes, then i can just itemize all the ap I don't have due to the opportunity cost of gp10 quints. That's ignoring the fact that 15 AP at 0 minutes is inherently worth more than 15 AP at 18 minutes. true, but it also ignores the fact that earlier gp10 item snowballs the gp10 quints. gp10 snowball meta 2 stronk.
What? GP10 isn't snowballing it's setting yourself back. If you buy gp10 when you're "snowballing" then you're doing something bad and you should feel bad. GP10 is meant for longer games, which is why you see triple gp10 in tourney games. They expect a 40+ min game and so they build accordingly. When a support like gosu pepper snowballs he rushes an aura item like aegis and/or zekes in order to snowball harder.
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holy shit I don't know why it's so hard to understand what he is saying. faster philo = faster aegis.\
not snowball as in kills, snowball as in getting philo rolling faster exaggerating gold lead over opposing support. I swear some of you intentionally misunderstand statements simply to start an argument.
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I thought we solemnly swore never to talk about GP10 ever again. I mean it's like the same discussion we've had 1 million times and we're not even talking about the [relatively] recent nerfs to the common GP10 items.
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On August 10 2012 03:39 Slusher wrote:
holy shit I don't know why it's so hard to understand what he is saying. faster philo = faster aegis.
How do you interpret "true, but it also ignores the fact that earlier gp10 item snowballs the gp10 quints." to him saying faster philo=faster aegis? Like sure i understand that if you get your philo earlier it allows you to work towards your core aura item, but that is NOT what he said!
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On August 10 2012 03:39 Slusher wrote:
holy shit I don't know why it's so hard to understand what he is saying. faster philo = faster aegis.\
not snowball as in kills, snowball as in getting philo rolling faster exaggerating gold lead over opposing support.
^this is what I was trying to say.
I guess i didn't word it well~
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On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder.
First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game.
You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items.
You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?
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On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?
Is it me or does this whole discussion feel like a miscommunication? I don't think anybody is arguing against the tanky AP Aura whore build where the only "pure" tank item is FH.
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On August 10 2012 03:39 Slusher wrote:
holy shit I don't know why it's so hard to understand what he is saying. faster philo = faster aegis.\
not snowball as in kills, snowball as in getting philo rolling faster exaggerating gold lead over opposing support. I swear some of you intentionally misunderstand statements simply to start an argument.
This is implying that 15 flat AP won't gain you an advantage in lane before the philo, right? I just don't think that that's true - It will likely translate into your AD getting more lasthits and having an easier time, which is likely going to lead into lane domination. The early philo and its advantages likely aren't going to come into effect before 15 minutes or so, and if you let the opponent gain the upper hand in that time it is going to make the laning very difficult.
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Shyvana's e makes wits end proc twice on one auto wut~
I did not know that >_>
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On August 10 2012 03:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:42 Requizen wrote:On August 10 2012 03:03 TheYango wrote:On August 10 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
I just can't feel it. If you're going to build pure tank/support items, why would you play a champion that only has 1 CC and a teleport? If I was going to do AP damage and only build tank items, I'd play Naut and be way more useful to the team. Diana's kit is literally all damage except her E, there's no reason to pick her over anyone else if you just want to be an unkillable jerk. If you do build like that, yeah you're unkillable, but you're not doing enough damage to be a threat and will be ignored every teamfight. By this logic you should just be building straight damage on Amumu every game as well. It's a similarly flawed line of thinking that leads to people over-building damage on a jungler like Trundle when realistically he gets highest effectiveness out of purely itemizing CDR. You compare the respective advantages and disadvantages of champion kits at the draft. But when you're actually in the game, you should not be thinking "if I were X champion, I would be doing Y better". For the purposes of item selection, there are 2 relevant questions: a) What do I need to perform my role? b) What does my team need to win the game. On a melee jungler, the answer to both questions is rarely "more damage". EDIT: You're also vastly underestimating how much of an effect 3-4 auras has on your team if their team is choosing to deliberately ignore the aura holder. First, you're ignoring the difference in kits between Diana and Amumu. Mumu has 2 really good CC abilities and does absurd base damage with WE just by being nearby. Diana's bases aren't nearly as strong as constant 2.7% base health and AoE spam on Amumu, and her R and E aren't comparable to Q and R in terms of CC potential. Amumu's kit is designed to jump in, lock shit down, and then run around forcing things out of position while building unkillable. Diana with no damage is going to get 1 E off and then be ignored by everyone because her base damages aren't going to work well later in the game. You can't lump all "melee junglers" into one camp. Riven jungle isn't going to build pure tank, Naut jungle isn't going to build damage, etc. The current meta emphasizes and encourages tanky/support junglers like Naut, Mao, Nunu, or Malph, but that doesn't mean that champions like Xin, Riven, Diana, or Shaco play the same way or should build similarly. Yes, Xin builds some defenses, but that's not because he's tanking, that's because he needs the survival to stick to a target, while Diana doesn't need sticking power, she needs "blow shit up" power, which is AP not tanky dps items. You need to pick the champion best suited to the role, or at least one who is well suited to it. Diana's design is not meant to be a tanky aura holder. You can build it and probably do well if you're a better player than your opponent, but that's straight up gimping yourself from picking someone better suited to it. I can also pick Talon and dump all my money into tanky support items with 0 AD, but that wouldn't be very smart, now would it? Is it me or does this whole discussion feel like a miscommunication? I don't think anybody is arguing against the tanky AP Aura whore build where the only "pure" tank item is FH.
Actually, I am. I'm arguing in favor of pure AP items, focusing on building Diana damage-oriented rather than tanky AP oriented. Sheen, Guise, and DRings are my early/mid game items of choice, maybe throwing in Hextech Revolver (haven't tried it, don't quote me on that one yet). I'm advocating against things like Glacial and Aegis on her. The only tanky AP/aura item I think is good for her is Abyssal.
That said, if I sound like I'm coming off too argumentative and ignorant, please let me know. I'm trying to keep this rational and conversational, I'd hate to turn anything into a flame war.
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On August 10 2012 03:47 TheKefka wrote:
Shyvana's e makes wits end proc twice on one auto wut~
I did not know that >_>
If it's her Q, that makes perfect sense because she actually attacks twice, if it's really her E, wtf is going on there?
Also, faster Philo=faster Aegis? Doubt it. Try skipping Philo.
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On August 10 2012 03:46 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:39 Slusher wrote:
holy shit I don't know why it's so hard to understand what he is saying. faster philo = faster aegis.\
not snowball as in kills, snowball as in getting philo rolling faster exaggerating gold lead over opposing support. I swear some of you intentionally misunderstand statements simply to start an argument. This is implying that 15 flat AP won't gain you an advantage in lane before the philo, right? I just don't think that that's true - It will likely translate into your AD getting more lasthits and having an easier time, which is likely going to lead into lane domination. The early philo and its advantages likely aren't going to come into effect before 15 minutes or so, and if you let the opponent gain the upper hand in that time it is going to make the laning very difficult.
it's not exclusive of matchup, which has been my argument for like 5 pages now.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2012 03:47 TheKefka wrote:
Shyvana's e makes wits end proc twice on one auto wut~
I did not know that >_>
You mean Q.
On August 10 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote:
Actually, I am. I'm arguing in favor of pure AP items, focusing on building Diana damage-oriented rather than tanky AP oriented. Sheen, Guise, and DRings are my early/mid game items of choice, maybe throwing in Hextech Revolver (haven't tried it, don't quote me on that one yet). I'm advocating against things like Glacial and Aegis on her. The only tanky AP/aura item I think is good for her is Abyssal.
That said, if I sound like I'm coming off too argumentative and ignorant, please let me know. I'm trying to keep this rational and conversational, I'd hate to turn anything into a flame war.
If you don't like the Amumu comparison, then how about Udyr?
I fail to see how you can feel that Diana's base damage + token damage from offensive aura items and CDR isn't enough.
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Yea I know her Q does that but I just randomly opened zekents stream and someone said E does it as well.
Maybe I heard it wrong...That would be pretty op.
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EPT
