On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult.
Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
You talked about Darius before, so I was assuming you did indeed think his ult was OP. About Yi, Kat and Akali - I'm not sure how the CD resets / stacks they get are supposed to be broken, but that is just me. It enables them to do what they are supposed to do - assassinate bitches. Each and every single one of them is stopped by hard CC, and if a team isn't capable of picking properly or not able to land their stuns, I don't think that says a whole lot about the respective kits of said offenders. I don't know man, I kinda mained Kat for ages and played a good bunch of Akali and I'm under the impression that both are balanced champions.
They are balanced against coordinated teams and in draft pick. In normals, they are still pub stompers, as is Kassadin. My Anivia denies them pretty hard, but then they just go and slaughter my teammates. Then I have to deal with the fed assassin because my teammates were overextended even though I warned them mid was mia. 9/10 times a Kat, Akali, Kass, Darius etc will get fed in a normal game and spiral out of control.
On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote: Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
nasus gets brutally buttfucked by yorick. even under tower he can just harras you and until you have cdr and lvl5 q you dont gain any additional q farm because you need it more often than its available just to keep up with minions.
On August 09 2012 22:55 Slayer91 wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:
Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is)
You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game.
lol, 20% lifesteal when as soon as you hit something you get butt raped is not the best sustain ;D
Why does nasus get butt raped as soon as he hits thing but every other laner doesnt? Not that many champs can outright trade with yorick because his e heals so much but you don't see yorick dominating people often.
if you lane against yorick youre gonna have a bad time
Speaking of which, someone asked for a counter. What I found to work really well is Riven. Start Doran's, play defensive until level 3, go rape his butt afterwards. Sort of dicey, but it's the most comfortable I've ever been in a Yorick-MU.
I agree, by spamming Shield Riven can stand up to Yorick's harrass very well and after she has all her skills she can trade profitably. After lvl 6 she also should win the allin against Yorick if she plays it smart.
Trundle might also work but I'm not so sure about that. His passive does help with sustain though and his bite does reduce the damage of everything yorick does so it does make sense, never tried that though.
I've never really had a problem as Nasus against Yorick, unless their jungler helps him tower dive me before I've gotten sufficient levels of farm (and even then, on a few occassions this has turned out quite badly for them). It's really not that hard to get philo/hog, and then start stacking resists before working on trinity force. Get enough armor and you can pretty much ignore ghouls as Nasus, unless Yorick is whacking you with his shovel too.
Trundle has just fallen into massive disuse and people forgot that he might be a good champion. He's great on poke/siege comps, that pillar is just so good at zone control and disengagement. I wish wickd would play him, would be ridiculous to have anivia+trundle zoning power.
On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult.
Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
You talked about Darius before, so I was assuming you did indeed think his ult was OP. About Yi, Kat and Akali - I'm not sure how the CD resets / stacks they get are supposed to be broken, but that is just me. It enables them to do what they are supposed to do - assassinate bitches. Each and every single one of them is stopped by hard CC, and if a team isn't capable of picking properly or not able to land their stuns, I don't think that says a whole lot about the respective kits of said offenders. I don't know man, I kinda mained Kat for ages and played a good bunch of Akali and I'm under the impression that both are balanced champions.
They are balanced against coordinated teams and in draft pick. In normals, they are still pub stompers, as is Kassadin. My Anivia denies them pretty hard, but then they just go and slaughter my teammates. Then I have to deal with the fed assassin because my teammates were overextended even though I warned them mid was mia. 9/10 times a Kat, Akali, Kass, Darius etc will get fed in a normal game and spiral out of control.
K, didn't know we were talking normals now. Not sure why anyone would argue balance in normals, either. You have to make decisions without any sort of information, how is anyone supposed to balance that? Not that your point isn't valid, it's just that it's not inherent champion imbalance if snowbally champions manage to do just that and then proceed to press their advantage harder than others (could.)
On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult.
Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
You talked about Darius before, so I was assuming you did indeed think his ult was OP. About Yi, Kat and Akali - I'm not sure how the CD resets / stacks they get are supposed to be broken, but that is just me. It enables them to do what they are supposed to do - assassinate bitches. Each and every single one of them is stopped by hard CC, and if a team isn't capable of picking properly or not able to land their stuns, I don't think that says a whole lot about the respective kits of said offenders. I don't know man, I kinda mained Kat for ages and played a good bunch of Akali and I'm under the impression that both are balanced champions.
They are balanced against coordinated teams and in draft pick. In normals, they are still pub stompers, as is Kassadin. My Anivia denies them pretty hard, but then they just go and slaughter my teammates. Then I have to deal with the fed assassin because my teammates were overextended even though I warned them mid was mia. 9/10 times a Kat, Akali, Kass, Darius etc will get fed in a normal game and spiral out of control.
K, didn't know we were talking normals now. Not sure why anyone would argue balance in normals, either. You have to make decisions without any sort of information, how is anyone supposed to balance that? Not that your point isn't valid, it's just that it's not inherent champion imbalance if snowbally champions manage to do just that and then proceed to press their advantage harder than others (could.)
Because Normals is the most played game mode so shouldn't it be fairly balanced? Balance shouldn't be done just for the professional level in a game like LoL because the majority of people who play, play it more casually. Does it still have to be balanced at the professional level, yes, of course. Also, you should always grab at least one champ with a stun in normals on principle because of the fact of Kat, Akali, Yi, Darius, et cetera. This is part of the reason my main mid is anivia.
On August 09 2012 11:15 ticklishmusic wrote: Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining.
Sorry man I would never call an ulti like this broken while there are much worse ultis in the game, like Karthus ulti can easely rack you 3 or more kills just by pressing a single button on your keyboard, which in my really honest opinion requires zero skill.. and i'm quite a Karthus player myself so...
Taric's ult was broken, back in Beta/early days of LoL. Back when it gave you and your team a 60% damage increase. My friend tells me all kinds of fun OP stories from back in the Beta days.
Honestly Karthus ult isn't that broken. His passive making it unabled to be cancelled is the broken part. But it still has a 3 second channel time so popping a potion, getting healed, spell shield, jumping on stick, troll pool, Kayle ult, Zilean ult, well timed shaco ult, BV all negate or minimize the damage. Karthus is far easier to deal with than say a Darius who is in your face and ults you because if he kills you he'll likely go on to kill everyone else on your team nearby. I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote: More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Correct she's not meant to be played tanky. Currently I am running armor pen marks on her because I don't have AS ones and because I like dealing true damage to jungle mobs. I get sorc boots if the enemy team isn't CC heavy otherwise I go Merc treads. Considering her spell damage is AoE (with the exception of her Ult possibly), I find Revolver to be a bit of a lost cause on her. Rylai's is pretty good on her. I honestly build her like I would a mid if I am getting kills/assists/decent CS. She's tanky enough to solo both dragon and baron. I've soloed dragon around level 9-10 and came out with like half health. For baron you will want to get 40% CDR, grab blue before or have Grail, and then just spam QWR, QR, QWR and finish with a smite.
This is funny because the tanky build has been working pretty well for me, while the AP heavy one didn't as much at first. Would you just forget about Kage's altogether and go for DRings for your start (post-boots)? I guess my experience has been to be fed most of the time, so ANY build would work (including my tanky one). I suppose now that I think about it, I haven't been feeling particularly effective super late game, but I kinda assumed it was because I'm not that good. Maybe I'll just build her like a mid, then take Glacial if I really need to be tankier.
On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult.
Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
You talked about Darius before, so I was assuming you did indeed think his ult was OP. About Yi, Kat and Akali - I'm not sure how the CD resets / stacks they get are supposed to be broken, but that is just me. It enables them to do what they are supposed to do - assassinate bitches. Each and every single one of them is stopped by hard CC, and if a team isn't capable of picking properly or not able to land their stuns, I don't think that says a whole lot about the respective kits of said offenders. I don't know man, I kinda mained Kat for ages and played a good bunch of Akali and I'm under the impression that both are balanced champions.
They are balanced against coordinated teams and in draft pick. In normals, they are still pub stompers, as is Kassadin. My Anivia denies them pretty hard, but then they just go and slaughter my teammates. Then I have to deal with the fed assassin because my teammates were overextended even though I warned them mid was mia. 9/10 times a Kat, Akali, Kass, Darius etc will get fed in a normal game and spiral out of control.
K, didn't know we were talking normals now. Not sure why anyone would argue balance in normals, either. You have to make decisions without any sort of information, how is anyone supposed to balance that? Not that your point isn't valid, it's just that it's not inherent champion imbalance if snowbally champions manage to do just that and then proceed to press their advantage harder than others (could.)
Because Normals is the most played game mode so shouldn't it be fairly balanced? Balance shouldn't be done just for the professional level in a game like LoL because the majority of people who play, play it more casually. Does it still have to be balanced at the professional level, yes, of course. Also, you should always grab at least one champ with a stun in normals on principle because of the fact of Kat, Akali, Yi, Darius, et cetera. This is part of the reason my main mid is anivia.
I'ma go ahead and be that guy and say no, it shouldn't. People make the deliberate choice to play BLIND picks, and you cannot balance champions around that. In a game where synergy and team interaction plays a huge role, how's that supposed to work?
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote: More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Cross reference your current thoughts with the discussion of why melee AD carries do not work. The problem that faces a pure AP Diana is the same problem that faces a melee AD or any melee range champion who does not build defenses, by definition you're in range to eat everything the enemy team has to offer.
The "damage junglers" you referenced all address this issue by building defenses. Shaco has enough problems late-game without adding to them by forsaking defenses. Xin and Jax, despite having defensive steroids, can't afford to build pure damage because they'd get murdered in team fights.
If Diana had consistent escape mechanism, ala LeBlanc or Kassadin, she might have been able to circumvent this issue. She doesn't, and for that reason I think completely eschewing defenses is a mistake.
That said, I recognize you're probably at the Elo where a Xin Zhao can rush a Black Cleaver and just demolish teams because there's no coordination or focus. That being the case you're probably correct to take advantage of that and focus on damage.
Theres plenty of champions that snowball and have nothing to do with "refresh on kill" mechanics. Riven, Lee Sin, Irelia all can snowball top lane really hard. If Shyv/Lee/Skarner starts getting significantly stronger the opposing jungler, that jungler is not safe farming his own wraiths or wolves, let alone buff camps. Ahri Morgana Kassadin can snowball with their roaming strength, and aggressive bot lanes, like ones based around Leona or Blitz supports + an AD to complement can all snowball. Snowballing is part of the game. You get an advantage, and you use that advantage to create a bigger advantage, and so on. Nobody picks up first blood and then thinks "ok, now it's time to farm passively and not play aggressively at all, I got the 1 kill I needed." You take that advantage and you build it into a bigger advantage.
On August 10 2012 00:05 sylverfyre wrote: Theres plenty of champions that snowball and have nothing to do with "refresh on kill" mechanics. Riven, Lee Sin, Irelia all can snowball top lane really hard. If Shyv/Lee/Skarner starts getting significantly stronger the opposing jungler, that jungler is not safe farming his own wraiths or wolves, let alone buff camps. Ahri Morgana Kassadin can snowball with their roaming strength, and aggressive bot lanes, like ones based around Leona or Blitz supports + an AD to complement can all snowball. Snowballing is part of the game. You get an advantage, and you use that advantage to create a bigger advantage, and so on. Nobody picks up first blood and then thinks "ok, now it's time to farm passively and not play aggressively at all, I got the 1 kill I needed." You take that advantage and you build it into a bigger advantage.
Your point being? The discussion originally was about refresh-on-kill Ults.
On August 09 2012 11:15 ticklishmusic wrote: Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining.
Sorry man I would never call an ulti like this broken while there are much worse ultis in the game, like Karthus ulti can easely rack you 3 or more kills just by pressing a single button on your keyboard, which in my really honest opinion requires zero skill.. and i'm quite a Karthus player myself so...
Taric's ult was broken, back in Beta/early days of LoL. Back when it gave you and your team a 60% damage increase. My friend tells me all kinds of fun OP stories from back in the Beta days.
Honestly Karthus ult isn't that broken. His passive making it unabled to be cancelled is the broken part. But it still has a 3 second channel time so popping a potion, getting healed, spell shield, jumping on stick, troll pool, Kayle ult, Zilean ult, well timed shaco ult, BV all negate or minimize the damage. Karthus is far easier to deal with than say a Darius who is in your face and ults you because if he kills you he'll likely go on to kill everyone else on your team nearby. I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote: More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Correct she's not meant to be played tanky. Currently I am running armor pen marks on her because I don't have AS ones and because I like dealing true damage to jungle mobs. I get sorc boots if the enemy team isn't CC heavy otherwise I go Merc treads. Considering her spell damage is AoE (with the exception of her Ult possibly), I find Revolver to be a bit of a lost cause on her. Rylai's is pretty good on her. I honestly build her like I would a mid if I am getting kills/assists/decent CS. She's tanky enough to solo both dragon and baron. I've soloed dragon around level 9-10 and came out with like half health. For baron you will want to get 40% CDR, grab blue before or have Grail, and then just spam QWR, QR, QWR and finish with a smite.
This is funny because the tanky build has been working pretty well for me, while the AP heavy one didn't as much at first. Would you just forget about Kage's altogether and go for DRings for your start (post-boots)? I guess my experience has been to be fed most of the time, so ANY build would work (including my tanky one). I suppose now that I think about it, I haven't been feeling particularly effective super late game, but I kinda assumed it was because I'm not that good. Maybe I'll just build her like a mid, then take Glacial if I really need to be tankier.
I try to avoid D rings, but that's just me. I do like kage's pick a lot, and I almost always pick up fiendish codex on her at some point. Frozen Heart is pretty good on her, but usually someone else beats me to building it. Any build will work on her early, but you really need the damage for later game to remain useful. My best game so far with her was a 8/3/29 game where I helped all the right people on my team get fed, but I still did enough damage to get kills. I run a lot of base MR and Armor so I start off pretty tanky, which decreases the need to get a lot of tanky items until late game.
How is no-one talking about Diana's login music? Thought I might sneak in a game or 2 before bed but I've spent 10 minutes listening to this on repeat now.
On August 09 2012 11:15 ticklishmusic wrote: Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining.
Sorry man I would never call an ulti like this broken while there are much worse ultis in the game, like Karthus ulti can easely rack you 3 or more kills just by pressing a single button on your keyboard, which in my really honest opinion requires zero skill.. and i'm quite a Karthus player myself so...
Taric's ult was broken, back in Beta/early days of LoL. Back when it gave you and your team a 60% damage increase. My friend tells me all kinds of fun OP stories from back in the Beta days.
Honestly Karthus ult isn't that broken. His passive making it unabled to be cancelled is the broken part. But it still has a 3 second channel time so popping a potion, getting healed, spell shield, jumping on stick, troll pool, Kayle ult, Zilean ult, well timed shaco ult, BV all negate or minimize the damage. Karthus is far easier to deal with than say a Darius who is in your face and ults you because if he kills you he'll likely go on to kill everyone else on your team nearby. I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote: More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Correct she's not meant to be played tanky. Currently I am running armor pen marks on her because I don't have AS ones and because I like dealing true damage to jungle mobs. I get sorc boots if the enemy team isn't CC heavy otherwise I go Merc treads. Considering her spell damage is AoE (with the exception of her Ult possibly), I find Revolver to be a bit of a lost cause on her. Rylai's is pretty good on her. I honestly build her like I would a mid if I am getting kills/assists/decent CS. She's tanky enough to solo both dragon and baron. I've soloed dragon around level 9-10 and came out with like half health. For baron you will want to get 40% CDR, grab blue before or have Grail, and then just spam QWR, QR, QWR and finish with a smite.
This is funny because the tanky build has been working pretty well for me, while the AP heavy one didn't as much at first. Would you just forget about Kage's altogether and go for DRings for your start (post-boots)? I guess my experience has been to be fed most of the time, so ANY build would work (including my tanky one). I suppose now that I think about it, I haven't been feeling particularly effective super late game, but I kinda assumed it was because I'm not that good. Maybe I'll just build her like a mid, then take Glacial if I really need to be tankier.
I try to avoid D rings, but that's just me. I do like kage's pick a lot, and I almost always pick up fiendish codex on her at some point. Frozen Heart is pretty good on her, but usually someone else beats me to building it. Any build will work on her early, but you really need the damage for later game to remain useful. My best game so far with her was a 8/3/29 game where I helped all the right people on my team get fed, but I still did enough damage to get kills. I run a lot of base MR and Armor so I start off pretty tanky, which decreases the need to get a lot of tanky items until late game.
So then you still have defensive masteries to avoid early jungle damage, but run very AP heavy runes and just build AP items? Like Kage -> Guise -> Abyssal/Rylais -> DCap etc?
On August 10 2012 00:13 TheLink wrote: How is no-one talking about Diana's login music? Thought I might sneak in a game or 2 before bed but I've spent 10 minutes listening to this on repeat now.
On August 10 2012 00:13 TheLink wrote: How is no-one talking about Diana's login music? Thought I might sneak in a game or 2 before bed but I've spent 10 minutes listening to this on repeat now.
Your about 50 pages late.
I'll still talk about how awesome it is. I got your back. (it is 50 pages back tho)
Also, on the subject of other unimportant things, is anyone else sad there's no weird Leona/Diana interaction buff/message or whatever? I assume one would have been found already if there were, and I know at least from personal experience that having them on opposing teams doesn't seem to do anything.
On August 09 2012 11:15 ticklishmusic wrote: Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining.
Sorry man I would never call an ulti like this broken while there are much worse ultis in the game, like Karthus ulti can easely rack you 3 or more kills just by pressing a single button on your keyboard, which in my really honest opinion requires zero skill.. and i'm quite a Karthus player myself so...
Taric's ult was broken, back in Beta/early days of LoL. Back when it gave you and your team a 60% damage increase. My friend tells me all kinds of fun OP stories from back in the Beta days.
Honestly Karthus ult isn't that broken. His passive making it unabled to be cancelled is the broken part. But it still has a 3 second channel time so popping a potion, getting healed, spell shield, jumping on stick, troll pool, Kayle ult, Zilean ult, well timed shaco ult, BV all negate or minimize the damage. Karthus is far easier to deal with than say a Darius who is in your face and ults you because if he kills you he'll likely go on to kill everyone else on your team nearby. I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote: More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Correct she's not meant to be played tanky. Currently I am running armor pen marks on her because I don't have AS ones and because I like dealing true damage to jungle mobs. I get sorc boots if the enemy team isn't CC heavy otherwise I go Merc treads. Considering her spell damage is AoE (with the exception of her Ult possibly), I find Revolver to be a bit of a lost cause on her. Rylai's is pretty good on her. I honestly build her like I would a mid if I am getting kills/assists/decent CS. She's tanky enough to solo both dragon and baron. I've soloed dragon around level 9-10 and came out with like half health. For baron you will want to get 40% CDR, grab blue before or have Grail, and then just spam QWR, QR, QWR and finish with a smite.
This is funny because the tanky build has been working pretty well for me, while the AP heavy one didn't as much at first. Would you just forget about Kage's altogether and go for DRings for your start (post-boots)? I guess my experience has been to be fed most of the time, so ANY build would work (including my tanky one). I suppose now that I think about it, I haven't been feeling particularly effective super late game, but I kinda assumed it was because I'm not that good. Maybe I'll just build her like a mid, then take Glacial if I really need to be tankier.
I try to avoid D rings, but that's just me. I do like kage's pick a lot, and I almost always pick up fiendish codex on her at some point. Frozen Heart is pretty good on her, but usually someone else beats me to building it. Any build will work on her early, but you really need the damage for later game to remain useful. My best game so far with her was a 8/3/29 game where I helped all the right people on my team get fed, but I still did enough damage to get kills. I run a lot of base MR and Armor so I start off pretty tanky, which decreases the need to get a lot of tanky items until late game.
So then you still have defensive masteries to avoid early jungle damage, but run very AP heavy runes and just build AP items? Like Kage -> Guise -> Abyssal/Rylais -> DCap etc?
Yeah I run 12/17/1 masteries so I get the MPen in offense and all the nice defensive ones, and improved recall because I could. I run ~26 flat AP in runes, with armor seals, and armor pen marks so I get better damage on jungle mobs. I keep meaning to try haunting guise, but I never remember to build it. They really need to make it build into something. I've actually been building RoA fairly often, I just like the heal and mana regen on level up. I get Rylai's fairly often and I almost always get a Deathcap. Grail is pretty nice on her because you should get a lot of assists/kills and the CDR is always a plus. I occasionally toy with a Nashor's just cause all of the stats are nice for her, but it is a bit expensive.
EPT
He's great on poke/siege comps, that pillar is just so good at zone control and disengagement. I wish wickd would play him, would be ridiculous to have anivia+trundle zoning power.
