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On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
Not sure about Trundle i tried it a bit but the % hp regen you're getting from the passive is not that high, to be honest i'm pretty sure that you're losing anyways.
Agreed for nasus, i like the fact that you can stack Q for free and lifesteal a bit with your passive (i usually go for tabi + glacial shroud, seems to work ok for me) Only problem with nasus is that you can kite him easily with some champs
Hum, maybe renekton but i dunno, depends on the jungler and snowballing early :/
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On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
My renekton has had good success against Yorick players. I'm your elo aswell. So yeah, Renekton/Irelia do quite well vs him. Their main strength are that if the jungler comes, Yorick is so fricking dead due to their CC and damage.
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On August 09 2012 22:11 Vlanitak wrote:
An idea: Mindgames, pick an AD carry (ranged) that can farm top against a decent amount of opponents (corki comes to mind, caitlyn) and pick a standard support and something like fiora, darius or etc etc someone who can deal a bunch of dmg played as a Melee AD carry. If they enemy think they can beat your "top laner" with a 2v1 setup and just send the "top laner" and your support where ever their top laner goes.
if this makes any sense at all...
On a similar note, I'm surprised I've never seen Corki/Leona being picked early, wait for their top lane, and if Corki can lane top get Jarvan as last pick. I don't know how top players handle Jarvan/Leona in bot lane, but at my low 1300 elo, people just die to it over and over and you wouldn't hurt your composition for mid and late game.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 09 2012 21:47 Goshawk. wrote:
Surely people have tried melee AD carries before and the problems with them in comparison to ranged AD carries is pretty clear: they get kited, so a lot of their potential dps is wasted and they just get focused and die.
The thing is, what are the benefits over a ranged carry? Even if you could get a melee carry in range to do damage, the effort required to set up a melee carry to do damage is significantly more than the effort needed to peel a ranged carry.
In DotA the item that virtually makes melee carries work is BKB, both because it makes it easier for melee carries to get in and do damage; but also because enemy BKBs makes peeling ranged carries much HARDER. Theres no analogue in LoL.
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On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is)
You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game.
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Black Shield works kind of like BKB though with enough damage it just goes away. Does Black Shield stay up with Poppy ult?
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More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
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On August 09 2012 18:52 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
Taric ulti is a little OP in my opinion. It gives him 70ad/70ap, which turns him into a decent bruiser/burst. It also gives his team a free BF sword/blasting wand. 60 second CD, 36 if max CDR, 10 second duration. That's a huge advantage during a fight.
Broke my 9loss streak. Awwwww yeaaaah. I'm not complaining. Sorry man I would never call an ulti like this broken while there are much worse ultis in the game, like Karthus ulti can easely rack you 3 or more kills just by pressing a single button on your keyboard, which in my really honest opinion requires zero skill.. and i'm quite a Karthus player myself so...
Taric's ult was broken, back in Beta/early days of LoL. Back when it gave you and your team a 60% damage increase. My friend tells me all kinds of fun OP stories from back in the Beta days.
Honestly Karthus ult isn't that broken. His passive making it unabled to be cancelled is the broken part. But it still has a 3 second channel time so popping a potion, getting healed, spell shield, jumping on stick, troll pool, Kayle ult, Zilean ult, well timed shaco ult, BV all negate or minimize the damage. Karthus is far easier to deal with than say a Darius who is in your face and ults you because if he kills you he'll likely go on to kill everyone else on your team nearby. I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
On August 09 2012 23:05 Requizen wrote:
More random thoughts on Diana (jungle).
I concede defeat on the build front. Tanky AP isn't her thing, she's really all damage and needs more and more AP to continue being useful and scary. Of course, on a non-fed jungle salary that's somewhat limiting. Guise is great, Sheen works really well. I built Chalice and, while I could spam stuff in the jungle with impunity, I really felt the lack of damage. Glacial would probably still be my favored Armor item, but I think I'm going to just eschew focusing on defenses altogether. DRings are my next focus, 1 or 2 before any mid or late game items. Only "tanky" (if you can call it that) item that I'll be getting will be Merc's, because CC demolishes her like any other melee dps/assassin.
I've been running 9/21, but I think I'll be switching to 21/9 since my build will also be focusing more on damage than defense. Once you hit level 2~3, you don't even need defenses anyway because you clear so bloody fast. I'm still up in the air between mpen and AS marks, but I think AS is better overall, especially since I like Guise and Abyssal as items, get the mpen out of Offense tree, and with the AS marks you can pretty much clear/push with nothing but autos.
As far as later items go, I don't like AS items though. In my mind, for AS to be effective, you need sticking power so you can constantly auto. With only the one slow (Moonfall) and her teleport, anyone with a slow, sprint, or CC will make it very hard for her to stick, even with Red. Following that line of thought, and somewhat related to my "more damage less tanky items" conclusion, I've been considering Rylai. Yes, it's somewhat tanky because of the health, but it has a lot of AP, decent build items (grabbing Belt or Blasting Rod is nice even without the full item), and she needs the sticking power. Only issue is that all of her abilities only proc the 15% slow except her ult. It requires some testing, I think, but also not an item I'd rush.
Similarly, I want to test out Revolver a bit. I know I originally ignored it because spell vamp doesn't scale with her shield, but I'm focusing less on her shield's innate tankiness and more on her damage now, so a pure AP item that gives a bit of sustain (especially landing Moonfall -> W+Q for big AoE healing) may not be amiss. It's also nice to get into WotA if you want a double WotA comp but have an AD bruiser or straight tank top.
My issue with her is that I kept thinking of her and playing her like Skarner or Udyr, thinking as a bruiser and what not. But she's more like Shaco/Xin/Jax, a damage jungler, which I realize now. I think the reason is that, when I first saw her shield and that she was designed as a counterpart to Leona, I was thinking of her defenses. But her shield is more used for the damage on it, and it's not a tank ability by a long shot. She needs damage to be effective, and she needs to act like an assassin more than a fighter. She might be a bit tankier than someone like Shaco or Fizz or something thanks to W, but it by no means brings her up to a Skarner or Shen level.
Anyway, thoughts during my drive and breakfast. Sorry for the random wall of text.
Correct she's not meant to be played tanky. Currently I am running armor pen marks on her because I don't have AS ones and because I like dealing true damage to jungle mobs. I get sorc boots if the enemy team isn't CC heavy otherwise I go Merc treads. Considering her spell damage is AoE (with the exception of her Ult possibly), I find Revolver to be a bit of a lost cause on her. Rylai's is pretty good on her. I honestly build her like I would a mid if I am getting kills/assists/decent CS. She's tanky enough to solo both dragon and baron. I've soloed dragon around level 9-10 and came out with like half health. For baron you will want to get 40% CDR, grab blue before or have Grail, and then just spam QWR, QR, QWR and finish with a smite.
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On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though.
Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
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I think he's thinking of Darius, because he mentioned it in his post. Yi also has one, but ... he's Yi.
Kat's scary refresh is that her EWQ all refresh each kill, and the damage from her combo comes out so fast that if someone else will also get combo'd down, they die instantly, rinse, repeat. It's not unreasonable because if Kat got a good ulti off (no interrupt / multiple targets... that's a lot to ask for from Kat though) people are likely to be low enough.
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On August 09 2012 23:20 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though. Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius.
On an unrelated note support Volibear has 100% winrate for me in ranked. :D
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i totally think he refers to darius ultimate, which honestly i agree, is really still too powerful, it's not like Irelia's Q which is redicolous in comparison, making an ultimate that deals bagillion damage refreshed upon kill is seriously bad... like you ad carry and ap are guaranteed to die in every team fight at the very least..
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On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
nasus gets brutally buttfucked by yorick. even under tower he can just harras you and until you have cdr and lvl5 q you dont gain any additional q farm because you need it more often than its available just to keep up with minions.
On August 09 2012 22:55 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is) You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game.
lol, 20% lifesteal when as soon as you hit something you get butt raped is not the best sustain ;D
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On August 09 2012 23:20 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though. Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken?
Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult.
Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
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Bruiser teemo es no1 anti-AD lategame
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On August 09 2012 23:29 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. nasus gets brutally buttfucked by yorick. even under tower he can just harras you and until you have cdr and lvl5 q you dont gain any additional q farm because you need it more often than its available just to keep up with minions. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is) You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game. lol, 20% lifesteal when as soon as you hit something you get butt raped is not the best sustain ;D
Why does nasus get butt raped as soon as he hits thing but every other laner doesnt? Not that many champs can outright trade with yorick because his e heals so much but you don't see yorick dominating people often.
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On August 09 2012 23:34 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:20 Shiv. wrote:On August 09 2012 23:16 NEOtheONE wrote: I just find refresh on kill ults to be broken in general though. Not dicking around, but honestly wondering: aside from Akali and Katarina, who are you thinking of? And would you say the former two, especially since Katarina needs 3 kills to refresh it, are broken? Darius and Yi are the main offenders in my book because they both snowball like crazy once they get that first kill with their ult in a teamfight.Yi gets all of his spells back on kill. Old Eve before getting nerfed into the ground. Kat and Akali aren't as bad, but Kat is still bad because hers is kill or assist and refreshes all of her CDs. Akali gets 1 stack back per kill or assist and only needs one stack to use the ult. Granted Yi is stopped with one stun and then blown the hell up. However if the stun misses or your team doesn't have one you are so screwed.
You talked about Darius before, so I was assuming you did indeed think his ult was OP. About Yi, Kat and Akali - I'm not sure how the CD resets / stacks they get are supposed to be broken, but that is just me. It enables them to do what they are supposed to do - assassinate bitches. Each and every single one of them is stopped by hard CC, and if a team isn't capable of picking properly or not able to land their stuns, I don't think that says a whole lot about the respective kits of said offenders. I don't know man, I kinda mained Kat for ages and played a good bunch of Akali and I'm under the impression that both are balanced champions.
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The problem with Diana ultimate is there is virtually no punishment for casting it naked, should be at least 60 seconds.
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On August 09 2012 23:36 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:29 turdburgler wrote:On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. nasus gets brutally buttfucked by yorick. even under tower he can just harras you and until you have cdr and lvl5 q you dont gain any additional q farm because you need it more often than its available just to keep up with minions. On August 09 2012 22:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is) You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game. lol, 20% lifesteal when as soon as you hit something you get butt raped is not the best sustain ;D Why does nasus get butt raped as soon as he hits thing but every other laner doesnt? Not that many champs can outright trade with yorick because his e heals so much but you don't see yorick dominating people often.
if you lane against yorick youre gonna have a bad time
if you lane against yorick as nasus youre gonna be useless
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On August 09 2012 23:43 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:36 Slayer91 wrote:On August 09 2012 23:29 turdburgler wrote:On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. nasus gets brutally buttfucked by yorick. even under tower he can just harras you and until you have cdr and lvl5 q you dont gain any additional q farm because you need it more often than its available just to keep up with minions. On August 09 2012 22:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:44 Ente wrote:Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths. Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is) You really believe this? You can last hit creeps normally if you want to Q ghouls it doesn't really affect your income. Yorick is based on harassing the opponent and nasus has one of the best innate sustain of all the top laners and also makes your jungler ganks almost a guaranteed kill if he tries to harass you under tower so the only way I can see yorick winning if some weird fights break maybe with mids or junglers involved that lets him freeze the lane because he can 1v1 nasus for all the early game. lol, 20% lifesteal when as soon as you hit something you get butt raped is not the best sustain ;D Why does nasus get butt raped as soon as he hits thing but every other laner doesnt? Not that many champs can outright trade with yorick because his e heals so much but you don't see yorick dominating people often. if you lane against yorick youre gonna have a bad time
Speaking of which, someone asked for a counter. What I found to work really well is Riven. Start Doran's, play defensive until level 3, go rape his butt afterwards. Sort of dicey, but it's the most comfortable I've ever been in a Yorick-MU.
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EPT
