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On August 09 2012 18:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:01 barbsq wrote:On August 09 2012 08:19 Slayer91 wrote:
I think maxing W isn't all that bad as long as you aren't putting any points into E. just to clarify, I assume you mean more than 1 point in e, since a point in e early on is absolutely critical on sona. edit: also, maxing w on sona is fine imo. Comparing it to soraka isn't reasonable because soraka is a burst healer, while sona is a sustained healer. edit2: if you give up the first 1-2 cs in top lane to let it push to your tower, you have to be really careful not to let the wave build up too big, since if it hits the tower, the counterpush is at an almost perfect timing for a lvl 4 jungle gank, which leaves you extremely exposed. I do this sometimes in favorable matchups, but you have to make sure that after those first creeps you are pushing about as hard as your opponent, so that you only have 2-3ish creeps when they hit your tower. It also means they hit lvl's faster than you do, so you have to be aware of the level advantage as well. I never get E on sona until I feel like I need it to slow someone in a teamfight, but usually if you need to slow someone you're already winning so it's no big deal. In laning phase E is almost useless (it's useful for power chords but that's it), and by having level 1 E and level 1 W your mana efficiency is pretty awful if you ever use E to power chord and W to heal meaning you need tons of mana regen and you can't afford to get philo stone on sona (even if that was enough) as first item. Sona needs really fast ruby crystal and then boots because sonas weakness is getting jumped/bursted/ganked when you're trying to harass and generally once you get some HP that's when you really start to win against kill lanes if they aren't already ahead. From what I read here everyone loves their 1 point in e on sona but I haven't been convinced at all and in solo queue I never notice sona E's been using in laning phase pretty much ever. I guess they help support ganks but hell you mightn't need ganks on sona lanes if you increase your mana efficiency she is one of the strongest supports in lane and if you can't engage the sona/carry combo you basically are going to be behind in some fashion. When I play sona in solo queue I might get raged at for a lot of things whether it's actually my fault or not (ad carries tend to BITCH at supports because if they don't they get blamed for losing their lane and often the support isn't playing great as well) but I've never once got "wtf sona why didn't you have E?" If I get level 5 sona with 3 W and 2 Q, and you have 3 Q 1 W 1 E I have almost double the mana efficency of my heal as well as 12 more mr/armour when my W's up. (heal used recently which it should be when you're taking damage)/ I also rarely use sonas W power chord. How many times does the target do 5x the damage that your power chord would do in that time? Only things like irelia jumping someone, nunu ulting etc justify it and most of the time you use your power chord for poking and bursting as opposed to peeling.
I agree with the sentiments on E at level 4 but I think that E at level 8 is pretty much mandatory. The faster powerchord charge and slow on powerchord helps a lot in the first dragon fights that occur.
Also, I haven't seen her quite as much after the hotfix but zyra feels closer to balanced in lane. I think the E really should have a penalty for going through multiple targets but it's no longer the get-bound-and die sort of thing.
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On August 09 2012 19:34 kongoline wrote:
orianna or zyra? i know zyra just got nerfed and i wonder who to buy next, which champion is better as ap mid at current state?
think its all preference, since they changed ori im not a big fan of he rbut then again ive never played zyra so i dunno.
think both are viable
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On August 09 2012 18:52 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 18:45 Ota Solgryn wrote:On August 09 2012 12:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On August 09 2012 12:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
that totally answers my question, plz teach me moar of ur high level thinking Stop that, we don't want people posting like idiots here. Thank you ITW. I wish more admins would use the hammer more in this thread, specifically on one-liners like this. So many times when a persons comes up with theory crafting/new ideas, with alot of reasons etc. someone, even high count posters, makes these 1-liners just bashing the person or his idea with terrible 4chan/lol forum wording and no reasoning argumentation. I remember one guy that came up with alot of new thinking eventually left because he was often confronted with 1-liners like: "This is a terrible idea, go away." I dunno i usually report people who just 1liner/bash like that, admins never seem to warn or ban or do anything though. quite depressing
Yes, me too. Been reporting a couple of posts, but nothing seems to happen. I am glad I am not the only one here that is feeling this way. Well, I'll stop derailing now.
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Early E on Sona? No way. In lane, the poke and sustain of Q and W is WAY stronger than anything E could do. Get E when you have a reason to; usually once or just before the laning phase ends.
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What about E to slow when your jungler is ganking?
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On August 09 2012 21:22 sylverfyre wrote:
What about E to slow when your jungler is ganking?
you rather have better pokes/sustain and better trades on your own. When your jungler successfully passes their wards and their awareness (how big is the chance this happens?) then you will be in good shape to fight or bait. Also when their jungler passes your wards and awareness then you probably be better off if your lane is in good shape.
I'am also pretty sure that rushing boots upgrade (defensive) instead of gp10 is a very good thing on sona in alot of cases since you want to be in the frontline of your lane allways. If their tank support is an enough big threat for you to completely deny your pokes then your carry will get behind in alot of cases because you fucked up the early 3 levels too much.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright guys I had the brilliantest of my brilliant ideas yesterday (which might or might not mean it's retarded)
A melee AD carry. Stuff like Tryndamere, Fiora, Evelynn have way more steroids than any ranged carry. Obviously you would need to build a team around that.
I'm thinking Orianna middle would be perfect - shield for your carry, ultimate to keep enemy champs in range for a bit longer. Some other guys to go in first into the fight (dont want the squishy melee to go first), so Amumu/Malphite jungle seems perfect. The only question is, what the hell do you do with your bottom lane? I have no clue lol
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The problem with a melee ad carry is range. They will pretty much always be in range of everything and as such will get hit by every cc the enemy has and die a fast and useless death.
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Surely people have tried melee AD carries before and the problems with them in comparison to ranged AD carries is pretty clear: they get kited, so a lot of their potential dps is wasted and they just get focused and die.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yeah, but what if there is way to protect them and keep at least some of enemy team in range? You know. I'm thinking such team would fall off lategame but might have a pretty damn strong midgame peak.
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On August 09 2012 21:51 Scip wrote:
Yeah, but what if there is way to protect them and keep at least some of enemy team in range? You know. I'm thinking such team would fall off lategame but might have a pretty damn strong midgame peak.
How to protect someone when he himself has to be right next to the opponents to attack them?
Range is the main factor for AD carries, they can build for pure damage and skip most defensive items since the opponents have to get past the whole team to reach the AD carry. A melee carry has to build defensive items to buy enough time to do damage, in which case we'd end up with an item build like riven, renekton, nocturne and such.
Sure, you could build Orianna, Lux, Morgana, etc. around such a melee AD carry and shield him as much as possible but he'd still be a squishy standing in the frontline.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
shield comp but noone mentions Karma?
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hm only theorizing here, but who are we thinking as melee ad carry? Fiora works top lane fine on her own (seen Darien beat on people pretty hard with her) and same goes for Tryndamere (or used to at least). But are thinking any of these or are we thinking more of a: Let's put Darius in a duo lane and see what happens?
I think that if you want to run something that isn't a kill lane (like jarvan leona or jarvan monkey etc) you need something to protect it. Janna perhaps? so you can run up last hit and not take to much dmg from the enemy ranged. It will probably be hard to play against stuff that likes to get in your face (like graves+ anything or a lane with Alistar or Leona). Maybe if you can force down the tower early, with jungle and mid help ofc. And force a low econ game (like Blaze tend to display but even lower) you might be able to start roaming with some success and perhaps even give a good dragon control as you gain a decent amount (or play with due to runes etc ) tankyness making it harder for the enemy to disengage on you.
I am still having a hard time seeing how to win the lane or get the money needed for the midgame items, but if you can somehow solve the farming problem (e.g. find a combo that can farm safely bot lane without dying to a "standard" lane) I think it could work.
An idea: Mindgames, pick an AD carry (ranged) that can farm top against a decent amount of opponents (corki comes to mind, caitlyn) and pick a standard support and something like fiora, darius or etc etc someone who can deal a bunch of dmg played as a Melee AD carry. If they enemy think they can beat your "top laner" with a 2v1 setup and just send the "top laner" and your support where ever their top laner goes.
if this makes any sense at all...
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Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
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On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies.
Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
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On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
I seem to remember beating a few Yoricks handily with AP Sion top, but that was a while ago so I'm not sure.
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On August 09 2012 22:28 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:24 Makavw wrote:
Can anyone in this game deal 1v1 yorick without the assistance of junglers? I find it that it is completly broken he can harrass from afar and not pull minion aggro. And often it happens (even on 1700ish elo) that jungler is derping somewhere else or its just a bad top+jungle combo that cant really gank him.
I tried with vlad last time and he completly outcsed me , throwing ghouls on evrey cooldown he had. I cannot outheal that dmg early game, and he just has more and more advantage going later due to his superior cs :/.
Trundle gets healed by his passive whenever a wraith dies. Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
I feel like Nunu is the most useful easy counter to Yorick. Early levels aren't particularly easy, but once you get your chalice and some levels in Q, you can outsustain him and nullify a significant amount of his sustain & damage by nomming ghouls (more about this in the Nunu thread.)
I'm fond of picking Riven into him and shielding as much of the ghoul harass as I can and charging at him when my jungler is about to come. Early tabi to absorb more harass.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I definately wouldn't put our melee AD carry into bottom lane, ranged AD+support would most likely be too much to handle, not to mention you could use levels very well. I'd like to see what you could do bottom lane without an AD carry but since I 1. don't play bottom lane much and 2. I don't lane much at all. So any suggestions would be welcome. The old US meta was tank+support, is that right? Could it still work against the modern bottom lane?
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I think it might be worth trying with Poppy or Tryndamere or Olaf maybe. Send a support top-lane with them and zone as best you can. 1 v 2 bot with a character that farms well under tower like Irelia/GP/Cho/Yorick or maybe give Blue to a person that can pretty much zone 1v2 like GP or Urgot.
Now that I think about it though it seems rather silly, you'd pretty much NEED Morgana for her E and if the opponents' ranged ad gets farmed and can peel for themselves or have a good escape the fight is not gonna go very well. I do kind of like the idea of Tryndamere + Yorick though
EDIT:
About Yorick - iirc Udyr is a pretty good choice vs him. Irelia is decent since if he harasses her he is very susceptible to ganks and if she gets ahead she sustains just as well as him. That's in my [extremely limited and questionable] experience
Some other guy said he like to play tristana vs him for the healing debuff
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Nasus can farm his Q on wraiths.
Yes but he doesnt get gold if he does so Nasus gets wrecked by Yorick (if he plays correctly that is)
for melee ADs : they get kited/killed really fast. Every melee will die to AD carries lategame pretty much no exception. For melee ads the midgame should be stronger due to him not getting killed in about 3-4 seconds every bruiser/tank has only a limited amount of time to life (might sound cruel but it is like this  ) there might be some really burst melees which could win a 1v1 against ads like Fizz or Talon possibly, but all other melees including stuff like Irelia and Jax cant win against full/nearly full item ad carry because you get kited.
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EPT
