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On July 27 2012 08:04 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 07:49 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 27 2012 07:29 GreenManalishi wrote:On July 27 2012 06:42 Schwopzi wrote:On July 27 2012 06:33 Slusher wrote:
I've fallen in love with the -60 mr build, I have a hard time not doing it. Buffing Guise even slightly I think would be a mistake. Ye I've been doing it on more and more champs, straight up if I feel they can get away with it or with 1/2 dorans or chalice. I remember back when AD always went mid I would go Ghostblade + Brutalizer on Ez. Start with a rune page of arPen marks and quint, but back then everyone used full rune pages of arPen. Hmm, I think I might try that old build out again. It's funny that since Ghostblade's active doesn't refresh on ranged attacks people just assume it is bad on ranged heroes. I remember running numbers on different AD builds back when stark's fervor was still in the game. There's also malady as part of the shredder build though it relies more on AS. SotD was removed from the game. The shredder build really wasn't that special though in theory. I think that for most armor ranges IE PD was straight up better. And you didn't really want to be focusing prenerf thornmail rammus anyways. Before I got to try the AD shredder build, riot introduced zekes herald and dickhead's unholy grail. The problem with AD shred is that you have to choose between multiplicative scaling off crit, or more AD, or more armor pen. There aren't enough slots. So items like black cleaver often don't get built. I still think arpen is a better red rune to get than AD. I find arpen much harder to itemize and there are always retards who don't run armor runes. They follow the builds online that advocate "ability power yellows, blues, reds, and purples" that phreak and colbycheeze put up. (The mentality here is go big or go home. You want to have 20 bad games to have one good game where matchmaker gives you an easy lane opponent, you snowball off them easier with your extra AP, and carry a game). I think AD's should either go back to arpen reds for the early game or crit strike chance/crit damage runes for the mid->late game. They shouldn't rely so much on their bad mechanics to have an easier time last hitting under tower before they get their first doran's. I've always wanted to look at a collection of my replays, perhaps selecting some close games, and analyzing how much MR and how much armor my enemy team had at any given point. I think I'd find fairly low values for both, with one person on the enemy team having 400 armor and 60 mr. it's different for ad because even early game your auto attacks are scaling mostly from items. for an AP, you scale a lot harder off of base damage, if you blow all of your money on ArP your ad suffers, I still get rank 5 of my main nuke by 9.
No, that's not true.
Your main nuke, if it scales off AD, likely also deals physical damage, which also scales off arpen.
Arpen is only worse than AD early on against minions who don't have enough armor to penetrate, and people who stacked armor.
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I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then?
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Yes. Your ADs back then were almost all pure auto attackers, except Corki.
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On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then?
Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then.
Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities.,
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On July 27 2012 08:26 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then? Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then. Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities.,
AD mid meta lasted all the way until just before DreamHack. So you had Caitlyn, MF, and Ezreal in the mix too. Ez, and especially MF, were really strong in mid due to the scaling on their spells being AD and Cait was just plain broken. Of course you still often had Ashe/Corki mid because those two were viewed as the best late game AD carries and Corki could win lane against anyone while Ashe could at the very least survive.
Caitlyn wasn't out for very long before the meta shift though. But MF was generally regarded as the best laning AD carry because of how strong her Q was for a solo lane. It gave her more range to harass with than any other carry at the time. But yeah, especially Corki was a fuck ton stronger back then.
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On July 27 2012 09:06 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 08:26 Eppa! wrote:On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then? Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then. Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities., AD mid meta lasted all the way until just before DreamHack. So you had Caitlyn, MF, and Ezreal in the mix too. Ez, and especially MF, were really strong in mid due to the scaling on their spells being AD and Cait was just plain broken. Of course you still often had Ashe/Corki mid because those two were viewed as the best late game AD carries and Corki could win lane against anyone while Ashe could at the very least survive. Caitlyn wasn't out for very long before the meta shift though. But MF was generally regarded as the best laning AD carry because of how strong her Q was for a solo lane. It gave her more range to harass with than any other carry at the time. But yeah, especially Corki was a fuck ton stronger back then.
AD mid is still not bad as far as laning goes. Caitlyn can beat a lot of conventional AP mids, I think.
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On July 27 2012 09:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:06 overt wrote:On July 27 2012 08:26 Eppa! wrote:On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then? Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then. Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities., AD mid meta lasted all the way until just before DreamHack. So you had Caitlyn, MF, and Ezreal in the mix too. Ez, and especially MF, were really strong in mid due to the scaling on their spells being AD and Cait was just plain broken. Of course you still often had Ashe/Corki mid because those two were viewed as the best late game AD carries and Corki could win lane against anyone while Ashe could at the very least survive. Caitlyn wasn't out for very long before the meta shift though. But MF was generally regarded as the best laning AD carry because of how strong her Q was for a solo lane. It gave her more range to harass with than any other carry at the time. But yeah, especially Corki was a fuck ton stronger back then. AD mid is still not bad as far as laning goes. Caitlyn can beat a lot of conventional AP mids, I think.
Honestly most AD mids can at least go toe-to-toe with AP mids in lane phase. I would personally think that Cait and Graves could both out lane most AP mids.
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On July 27 2012 07:49 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 07:29 GreenManalishi wrote:On July 27 2012 06:42 Schwopzi wrote:On July 27 2012 06:33 Slusher wrote:
I've fallen in love with the -60 mr build, I have a hard time not doing it. Buffing Guise even slightly I think would be a mistake. Ye I've been doing it on more and more champs, straight up if I feel they can get away with it or with 1/2 dorans or chalice. I remember back when AD always went mid I would go Ghostblade + Brutalizer on Ez. Start with a rune page of arPen marks and quint, but back then everyone used full rune pages of arPen. Hmm, I think I might try that old build out again. It's funny that since Ghostblade's active doesn't refresh on ranged attacks people just assume it is bad on ranged heroes. I remember running numbers on different AD builds back when stark's fervor was still in the game. There's also malady as part of the shredder build though it relies more on AS. SotD was removed from the game. The shredder build really wasn't that special though in theory. I think that for most armor ranges IE PD was straight up better. And you didn't really want to be focusing prenerf thornmail rammus anyways. Before I got to try the AD shredder build, riot introduced zekes herald and dickhead's unholy grail. The problem with AD shred is that you have to choose between multiplicative scaling off crit, or more AD, or more armor pen. There aren't enough slots. So items like black cleaver often don't get built. I still think arpen is a better red rune to get than AD. I find arpen much harder to itemize and there are always retards who don't run armor runes. They follow the builds online that advocate "ability power yellows, blues, reds, and purples" that phreak and colbycheeze put up. (The mentality here is go big or go home. You want to have 20 bad games to have one good game where matchmaker gives you an easy lane opponent, you snowball off them easier with your extra AP, and carry a game). I think AD's should either go back to arpen reds for the early game or crit strike chance/crit damage runes for the mid->late game. They shouldn't rely so much on their bad mechanics to have an easier time last hitting under tower before they get their first doran's.I've always wanted to look at a collection of my replays, perhaps selecting some close games, and analyzing how much MR and how much armor my enemy team had at any given point. I think I'd find fairly low values for both, with one person on the enemy team having 400 armor and 60 mr.
It's not just that flat AD makes up for better mechanics. It opens up the window of last hitting wider so you can pick up some last hits here and there that you might otherwise get punished for, it allows when last hitting under turret to pick up last hits that would otherwise be impossible due to tower+minion damage. If there were no minions, sure, you can do auto+tower+auto on every ranged minion. When you add in minion damage to that, however, you are GOING to miss some of them like that. AD runes are close enough to ArPen runes that if you are picking up even a pretty small percentage of additional CS, they end up being better than the Armor Pen runes.
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On July 27 2012 09:15 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:12 Sufficiency wrote:On July 27 2012 09:06 overt wrote:On July 27 2012 08:26 Eppa! wrote:On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then? Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then. Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities., AD mid meta lasted all the way until just before DreamHack. So you had Caitlyn, MF, and Ezreal in the mix too. Ez, and especially MF, were really strong in mid due to the scaling on their spells being AD and Cait was just plain broken. Of course you still often had Ashe/Corki mid because those two were viewed as the best late game AD carries and Corki could win lane against anyone while Ashe could at the very least survive. Caitlyn wasn't out for very long before the meta shift though. But MF was generally regarded as the best laning AD carry because of how strong her Q was for a solo lane. It gave her more range to harass with than any other carry at the time. But yeah, especially Corki was a fuck ton stronger back then. AD mid is still not bad as far as laning goes. Caitlyn can beat a lot of conventional AP mids, I think. Honestly most AD mids can at least go toe-to-toe with AP mids in lane phase. I would personally think that Cait and Graves could both out lane most AP mids.
Right. The problem is that APs are such weak laners that they typically will die horribly in a solo lane unless it is the mid lane.
Maybe APs can be played in a dual lane with a support (Cassiopeia/Lux + Soraka comes to mind). The problem here is that with a dual lane APs can't level as fast, so there has to be some other factors to justify such a strategy... currently there are none.
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Champion design on her is excellent this time around.
They really tried hard to avoid the whole 'sexualization of female champions' bullshit that's been up everyone's ass lately and made her sexy in a whole different way. The look is really unique too...that hair reminds me of a Star Wars character right now that I can't put my finger on.
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Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS?
Also, I assume the moonlight debuff is consumed upon casting her ultimate (otherwise she can cast it almost indefinitely so long as the debuff lasts/her mana permits). It seems to me that her Q is a pass-through skillshot that debuffs everyone in its path, so hitting all 5 with Q -> 5 ultimate casts? This is kind of similar to Katarina in a way.
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On July 27 2012 09:15 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:12 Sufficiency wrote:On July 27 2012 09:06 overt wrote:On July 27 2012 08:26 Eppa! wrote:On July 27 2012 08:22 Slusher wrote:
I was not around for the ad mid meta so I can't really comment with intelligence but did ADs not still do the majority of their damage thru autos back then? Look at the champs that existed. Ashe, Corki, Sivir, Trist. Except they where a looooooooooooot better than now and everything scaled with AP except Ashe W i think. Most ability damage has been nerfed since then. Trist, Corki, Sivir all had a big part of their mid game damage as abilities., AD mid meta lasted all the way until just before DreamHack. So you had Caitlyn, MF, and Ezreal in the mix too. Ez, and especially MF, were really strong in mid due to the scaling on their spells being AD and Cait was just plain broken. Of course you still often had Ashe/Corki mid because those two were viewed as the best late game AD carries and Corki could win lane against anyone while Ashe could at the very least survive. Caitlyn wasn't out for very long before the meta shift though. But MF was generally regarded as the best laning AD carry because of how strong her Q was for a solo lane. It gave her more range to harass with than any other carry at the time. But yeah, especially Corki was a fuck ton stronger back then. AD mid is still not bad as far as laning goes. Caitlyn can beat a lot of conventional AP mids, I think. Honestly most AD mids can at least go toe-to-toe with AP mids in lane phase. I would personally think that Cait and Graves could both out lane most AP mids.
Corki mid wins or goes even against literally everything, can farm camps really well, avoid ganks super easily in mid, can even gank decently, and is great lategame obviously. The only problem is that picking him causes your team to troll you.
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On July 27 2012 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS?
So it isn't just Nocturne's without the heal? Haha.
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That Ultimate looks pretty broken depending on the cooldowns on her other abilities.
Also, is Moonfall like a taunt?
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On July 27 2012 09:28 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS? So it isn't just Nocturne's without the heal? Haha.
No that's not the point.
Her innate also gives bonus AS. This is redundant, since the AS can be built into her statistics growth instead.
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Holy fuck the Cursemas commercial shoot was the most hilarious thing I have ever seen on stream.
"JACKY GET IN HERE! GET INTIMATE LITTLE CHINESE BOY!" - SV
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On July 27 2012 09:31 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:28 iCanada wrote:On July 27 2012 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS? So it isn't just Nocturne's without the heal? Haha. No that's not the point. Her innate also gives bonus AS. This is redundant, since the AS can be built into her statistics growth instead.
They are probably worried that people wouldn't notice a champion having ridiculous base AS at level 18 unless they spelled it out for them.
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EPT
