EPT[Patch 1.0.0.143: MidJuly-Zyra] General Discussion - Page 84
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:32 zulu_nation8 wrote: jungle galio Does it work? | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:22 wei2coolman wrote: Or, like I've said for a while, reduce haunting guise cost by like 500 gold. And make it the most broken item in the game, miles above old Wit's End? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:03 spinesheath wrote: And make it the most broken item in the game, miles above old Wit's End? haunting guise is a terrible lategame choice, even after my suggested change. And the whole point of it is suppose to be ridiculously cost effective/slot ineffective., something LoL doesn't really have, in terms of item choice | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2012 05:22 wei2coolman wrote: Or, like I've said for a while, reduce haunting guise cost by like 500 gold. You can't do this without bringing item balance as a whole into line with that figure. It doesn't help if there's one stand-out OP item and everything else doesn't line up with it. You'd have to do an across-the-board item overhaul which, while I think could bring some good to the game, really shouldn't be attempted till the end of Season 2 for the sake of competitive stability. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:08 TheYango wrote: You can't do this without bringing item balance as a whole into line with that figure. It doesn't help if there's one stand-out OP item and everything else doesn't line up with it. Would it be op'd? It still offers same stats, people just get it a lot earlier now~ when i bring up my thoughts on reducing guise's cost, I'm more or less just talking about creating a line of really really strong cost effective early items, that don't build into anything. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
Sorcs,Dring,Dring,Hat, for an opening and then gauging based on the other teams items. If they lack any major MR items I will build abyssal and guise for the 60 flat Mpen. If they are building MR items then I will go for a void staff. My main focus is to deal as much AoE damage as possible and their squishies are what I'm aiming for. Since squishy carries tend to have lower MR the flat Mpen is much greater than the %Mpen from the void. Since you already should have "sorc boots" if the enemy has less than 120 MR then the extra flat 40 Mpen is more effective than the 40% from the void staff. Beyound 120MR the void staff is better. So for stronger mid game or teams that lack MR I like the flat Mpen. The only time an AD carry has more than 120 MR is if they built a GA or QSS and those are late game items. On another note I've seen other zyra players building Hat>Wota>Rylais>Void which is a much better late game build I admit. Two questions I have and I'm going to experiment with later on Zyra: 1) Is Wota a good item for Zyra? 2) Do her plants benefit from Rylai's slow effect? | ||
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JokerSan
United States306 Posts
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:18 JokerSan wrote: What was the most OP item at any time in LoL's history? I would have to go with either the Innervating Locket or HoG as the most OP items ever. Zhonyas ring perhaps? I mean an item you had to split into two items seems pretty strong to me. Also philo stone because stacked philo stones was amazingly funny for anyone who liked to run around and not be caught by the enemy due to all the regen going on. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:20 Parnage wrote: Zhonyas ring perhaps? I mean an item you had to split into two items seems pretty strong to me. Also philo stone because stacked philo stones was amazingly funny for anyone who liked to run around and not be caught by the enemy due to all the regen going on. prenerf jarvan with 3 philo 2 hog also locket udyr | ||
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JokerSan
United States306 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:11 wei2coolman wrote: Would it be op'd? It still offers same stats, people just get it a lot earlier now~ when i bring up my thoughts on reducing guise's cost, I'm more or less just talking about creating a line of really really strong cost effective early items, that don't build into anything. It would be OP. Big time. Without the slightest bit of a doubt. Hence "most broken item in the game". You know we had all these "really really strong cost effective early items, that don't build into anything" before already? They were called Heart of Gold, Philosopher's Stone, Doran's Blade, Doran's Ring, Wriggle's Lantern, Wit's End... Did I miss some? Could be... Oh yeah: Hextech Revolver. They all got nerfed hard (well some a bit less, see Philo and Wit's). Why? Because they were TOO strong. So strong that you had no choice, you had to build them. Even stack them. Now if you can't stack them, the issue becomes less obvious. But it's still there. You'd be stupid to pass on an item of such hich cost efficiency. Therefore everybody just kept buying a single Revolver, a single HoG, a single Philo when they made their effects unique. Guise is at a pretty good spot right now. +-50 gold, whatever. It's close enough. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:13 Ghost-z wrote: 2) Do her plants benefit from Rylai's slow effect? From the LoL wiki: The Thorn Spitter does proc spell vamp and Rylai's, but with diminished effects. The Vine Lasher's slow stacks multiplicatively with Rylai's slow for a 34.5% slow. PENDING FOR TEST | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:13 Ghost-z wrote: As far as building Zyra I've had success these first few games building: Sorcs,Dring,Dring,Hat, for an opening and then gauging based on the other teams items. If they lack any major MR items I will build abyssal and guise for the 60 flat Mpen. If they are building MR items then I will go for a void staff. My main focus is to deal as much AoE damage as possible and their squishies are what I'm aiming for. Since squishy carries tend to have lower MR the flat Mpen is much greater than the %Mpen from the void. Since you already should have "sorc boots" if the enemy has less than 120 MR then the extra flat 40 Mpen is more effective than the 40% from the void staff. Beyound 120MR the void staff is better. So for stronger mid game or teams that lack MR I like the flat Mpen. The only time an AD carry has more than 120 MR is if they built a GA or QSS and those are late game items. On another note I've seen other zyra players building Hat>Wota>Rylais>Void which is a much better late game build I admit. Two questions I have and I'm going to experiment with later on Zyra: 1) Is Wota a good item for Zyra? 2) Do her plants benefit from Rylai's slow effect? 1) No Buy more AP instead, burst their whole team down in a second. WotA is a waste of money lategame. Also she does AoE with everything but the plants 2) Yes | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:11 wei2coolman wrote: Would it be op'd? It still offers same stats, people just get it a lot earlier now~ when i bring up my thoughts on reducing guise's cost, I'm more or less just talking about creating a line of really really strong cost effective early items, that don't build into anything. While I'm on board for your general idea, it's not so simple as just slashing 500 gold off the cost of Haunting Guise. Designing midgame items' slot- and cost-effectiveness tradeoffs plays heavily into the cost of both its component items and the bigger late-game items. You can't balance items in a vacuum--gold is only as good as what it buys you, so the way an item's value is measured is entirely relative to your alternatives. As far as "OP" goes, item's aren't like champions--every team has access to all items, so its not like it can cause an imbalance in the sense that we refer to an OP champion or race in Starcraft might. Rather, there are two sorts of problematic gameplay that I can see an "OP" item causing: 1) The item's effectiveness causes picking styles or gameplay to shift heavily in favor of champions which use that item (e.g. pre-nerf LW). 2) The item's effectiveness causes it to be a "must-buy" on champions or roles which might use the item, to the point of limiting other options (e.g. at-release Deathcap on APs). Many items guilty of one are also guilty of the other. But the point is that without carefully modulating Guise's value relative to every other item in the game, a haphazard buff to Guise's cost could cause either problem (either making APs too strong because other roles don't have such an aggressively-costed midgame item choice, or forcing APs to buy it because its cost/slot-effectiveness haven't been balanced properly with other AP items). | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:22 spinesheath wrote: It would be OP. Big time. Without the slightest bit of a doubt. Hence "most broken item in the game". You know we had all these "really really strong cost effective early items, that don't build into anything" before already? They were called Heart of Gold, Philosopher's Stone, Doran's Blade, Doran's Ring, Wriggle's Lantern, Wit's End... Did I miss some? Could be... Oh yeah: Hextech Revolver. They all got nerfed hard (well some a bit less, see Philo and Wit's). Why? Because they were TOO strong. So strong that you had no choice, you had to build them. Even stack them. Now if you can't stack them, the issue becomes less obvious. But it's still there. You'd be stupid to pass on an item of such hich cost efficiency. Therefore everybody just kept buying a single Revolver, a single HoG, a single Philo when they made their effects unique. Guise is at a pretty good spot right now. +-50 gold, whatever. It's close enough. The recent hog nerf was really not needed, and as far as the other items that required building, like hextech revolver, wits end, wriggles, they were stupidly slot efficient. Hextech revolver could be built into Wota, not to mention stacking w/ another AP, made it a stupidly good end game item. Witsend offered an amazing endgame stat, it was equivalent to bfsword in dmg + 600gold worth of MR + 40% AS 1000gold value, it wasn't just a strong mid game item, it was a strong end game item as well. What i'm suggesting is just a strong midgame item, that sucks lategame, it wouldn't be hard to design. I think reasonably speaking, a cost change to haunting guise, such as -500 gold is a good starting place in terms of creating a new line of items. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:29 wei2coolman wrote: The recent hog nerf was really not needed, and as far as the other items that required building, like hextech revolver, wits end, wriggles, they were stupidly slot efficient. Hextech revolver could be built into Wota, not to mention stacking w/ another AP, made it a stupidly good end game item. Witsend offered an amazing endgame stat, it was equivalent to bfsword in dmg + 600gold worth of MR + 40% AS 1000gold value, it wasn't just a strong mid game item, it was a strong end game item as well. What i'm suggesting is just a strong midgame item, that sucks lategame, it wouldn't be hard to design. I think reasonably speaking, a cost change to haunting guise, such as -500 gold is a good starting place in terms of creating a new line of items. I wasn't talking about the recent HoG nerf. I was talking about the transition from Stackable Cloth+Ruby HoG into what we have now.Having 5 HoG/Philo sucks lategame. Yet people still bought them. Same for Doran's. Or Revolvers. Yeah cool you can build one into a WotA. Maybe one into Gunblade. But the other 2-3 were just bought because they were too efficient. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Practically speaking, if you want those midgame items to be easier to design, you'd need to spread out the cost/slot-effectiveness tradeoff more as well (e.g. push "lategame" items toward 5k gold). | ||
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