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On July 27 2012 10:35 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS? Also, I assume the moonlight debuff is consumed upon casting her ultimate (otherwise she can cast it almost indefinitely so long as the debuff lasts/her mana permits). It seems to me that her Q is a pass-through skillshot that debuffs everyone in its path, so hitting all 5 with Q -> 5 ultimate casts? This is kind of similar to Katarina in a way. the skill description sounds like after you use your ultimate, all Q debuffs are consumed, including those not on your target. tbh...I think Eve just needs some stat buffs. she's soooo squishy right now. her kit's fine. no cc until 6 isn't that big a deal.
Agree completely and have been saying this for a while.
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On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it.
I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise.
Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve.
She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them.
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On July 27 2012 10:38 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2012 09:26 Sufficiency wrote:Her Innate seems retarded. Why does an Innate need to give bonus AS? Also, I assume the moonlight debuff is consumed upon casting her ultimate (otherwise she can cast it almost indefinitely so long as the debuff lasts/her mana permits). It seems to me that her Q is a pass-through skillshot that debuffs everyone in its path, so hitting all 5 with Q -> 5 ultimate casts? This is kind of similar to Katarina in a way. the skill description sounds like after you use your ultimate, all Q debuffs are consumed, including those not on your target. tbh...I think Eve just needs some stat buffs. she's soooo squishy right now. her kit's fine. no cc until 6 isn't that big a deal. Agree completely and have been saying this for a while.
I also agree, whenever I go in for ganks I have to pray that the enemy tries to run and doesn't get smart and just turn around and kill me.
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New champ sounds like akali, with a jingling focus. Damn iPhone autocorrect, jingling my ass.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2012 10:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
tbh...I think Eve just needs some stat buffs. she's soooo squishy right now. her kit's fine. no cc until 6 isn't that big a deal.
It's not really necessarily the "until 6 part", more than the fact that its just 1 spell on a long CD. Melees generally require way more CC than she has to be useful teamfighters, because having just damage isn't reliable when you're melee.
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On July 27 2012 10:44 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it. I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise. Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve. She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them.
To be fair, Kayle and Jax are definitely much weaker than pre-rework. Their re-works were straight up nerfs. Ryze got shifted into a completely different role, although he's definitely better now than before. I don't think anyone thought he was ever bad. Trynd was never thought to be any good in the first place so popular opinion didn't change about him after the rework until people realized his sustain was ridiculous.
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It looks like a new PBE patch is out tonight, so we will be able to see Diana's kit as well as some other things (Eve buff, Rumble nerf  , etc.)
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On July 27 2012 11:23 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:44 Parnage wrote:On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it. I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise. Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve. She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them. To be fair, Kayle and Jax are definitely much weaker than pre-rework. Their re-works were straight up nerfs. Ryze got shifted into a completely different role, although he's definitely better now than before. I don't think anyone thought he was ever bad. Trynd was never thought to be any good in the first place so popular opinion didn't change about him after the rework until people realized his sustain was ridiculous.
IDK if Ryze is better. Still feels nerfed to me :-/
Haven't seen much tourney Ryze lately either...
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On July 27 2012 11:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
tbh...I think Eve just needs some stat buffs. she's soooo squishy right now. her kit's fine. no cc until 6 isn't that big a deal. It's not really necessarily the "until 6 part", more than the fact that its just 1 spell on a long CD. Melees generally require way more CC than she has to be useful teamfighters, because having just damage isn't reliable when you're melee.
Depending how much they reduce her ult CD, it could help her hugely, it provides absolutely everything she needs, CC, durability, range, and a fat chunk of damage.
I've played her alot and she would feel really good with a nice short ult CD. If you land that thing in a teamfight on 4 or 5 people its an absolute initiating monster, especially because they cant see you coming in too do it.
I like her as a jungle, she is pleasantly quick. If you could use ult on nearly all your ganks she would be very strong IMO. Her sustained damage is very high. And its nice that you can build her AP or AD and be effective.
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On July 27 2012 11:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 11:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2012 10:44 Parnage wrote:On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it. I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise. Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve. She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them. To be fair, Kayle and Jax are definitely much weaker than pre-rework. Their re-works were straight up nerfs. Ryze got shifted into a completely different role, although he's definitely better now than before. I don't think anyone thought he was ever bad. Trynd was never thought to be any good in the first place so popular opinion didn't change about him after the rework until people realized his sustain was ridiculous. IDK if Ryze is better. Still feels nerfed to me :-/ Haven't seen much tourney Ryze lately either...
I know there's been a recent "rework" that was basically a giant shift in the damage output on his spells. I'm not referring to that one; I'm referring to the second rework back in season 1 with the Maokai patch where they turned Ryze from a giant low-range AP aoe nuker to the tanky mana bruiser Ryze we have now.
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On July 27 2012 11:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 11:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2012 10:44 Parnage wrote:On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it. I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise. Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve. She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them. To be fair, Kayle and Jax are definitely much weaker than pre-rework. Their re-works were straight up nerfs. Ryze got shifted into a completely different role, although he's definitely better now than before. I don't think anyone thought he was ever bad. Trynd was never thought to be any good in the first place so popular opinion didn't change about him after the rework until people realized his sustain was ridiculous. IDK if Ryze is better. Still feels nerfed to me :-/ Haven't seen much tourney Ryze lately either...
The single target/small AoE tanky dps fulfilled by cass/Ryze has been going out of favour in comparison to Karthus/kennen/anivia/ahri, stronger teamfighting champions/mobile champions rather than 1v1 monsters. They're still very good and very strong, just not quite as popular as before.
The new Ryze is pretty definitively stronger. You can build a larger variety of items on him and RoA gives him more damage than any single item ever did on the old ryze.
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Does anyone else think Xin is borderline OP after the buff? It's pretty ridiculous how good he is.
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On July 27 2012 11:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 10:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
tbh...I think Eve just needs some stat buffs. she's soooo squishy right now. her kit's fine. no cc until 6 isn't that big a deal. It's not really necessarily the "until 6 part", more than the fact that its just 1 spell on a long CD. Melees generally require way more CC than she has to be useful teamfighters, because having just damage isn't reliable when you're melee.
Yea, you're right in that not having some form of low cooldown cc kinda hurts her, but I always felt that she'd be better off as an AP assassin rather than AD bruiser-type style. She scales relatively well with AP and even though she has a speed boost she can't stick to targets all that well after her ulti slow wears off. So I feel like she's better off trying to gib a high priority target, then chasing say, the support, out of the fight.
On July 27 2012 11:47 IMoperator wrote:
Does anyone else think Xin is borderline OP after the buff? It's pretty ridiculous how good he is.
his kit looks stronger but I haven't seen anyone do particularly well with him yet.
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On July 27 2012 11:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 11:28 cLutZ wrote:On July 27 2012 11:23 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2012 10:44 Parnage wrote:On July 27 2012 10:29 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 27 2012 10:11 Parnage wrote:
People will think Eve is in a good spot sooner or later, the same with Kayle. It may take awhile but it'll happen and when she pop's up I think she'll pop in in a big way. No need to purposely make her stupidly strong just because of a stigma, that's just silly. I don't see how you can compare the two. Kayle's damage just from her regular harass is massive, very safe to apply from range, and very hard to counter due to double shred. She also has on-demand cc unlike Eve. And a speed boost. And sustain. And survivability in her ult. Eve has her ult for survivability. And a speed boost. Her damage is spammable but mediocre and as someone said earlier, she pretty much requires an all in to kill someone and will always end up barely alive at the end of it. I am not comparing them as champions, I am comparing the reception the player base had on them after each's respective remakes. Just like the same thing that tends to happen after every champion is remade. They are considered worse or terrible until someone proves otherwise. Kayle, Ryze, Trynd, Jax, and now Eve. She'll get a few buffs and she'll be fine and people still won't play her for ages. It's just how it seems to work. Unless something is massively broken about a champion most people won't play them until they see someone else do well with them. To be fair, Kayle and Jax are definitely much weaker than pre-rework. Their re-works were straight up nerfs. Ryze got shifted into a completely different role, although he's definitely better now than before. I don't think anyone thought he was ever bad. Trynd was never thought to be any good in the first place so popular opinion didn't change about him after the rework until people realized his sustain was ridiculous. IDK if Ryze is better. Still feels nerfed to me :-/ Haven't seen much tourney Ryze lately either... I know there's been a recent "rework" that was basically a giant shift in the damage output on his spells. I'm not referring to that one; I'm referring to the second rework back in season 1 with the Maokai patch where they turned Ryze from a giant low-range AP aoe nuker to the tanky mana bruiser Ryze we have now.
Ahh.
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Why can't we have eve w/ stun again? Oh the glory days.
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, my biggest problem with the Eve rework isn't even whether or not she's good now--it's that they've set her up to be a problem later.
For quite a while now, Riot has made their stance pretty clear, that they like teamfighting team compositions much better than the alternatives. Team compositions such as global-based gank teams tend to have core heroes nerfed when they start to pose significant problems for teamfight-based teams. This is fine. People like teamfighting, and it's more fun to watch as well. If Riot wants to favor and encourage teamfighting-based teams, that is perfectly acceptable.
The problem is that even with this attitude, they release Eve the way she is now--not necessarily bad, but with a kit that disfavors teamfighting so much. She has 1 long CD soft CC, an MS-based gap closer, and mediocre AoE damage. Her strengths are her ganks, strong solo chasing power, and strong damage with her steroids. Even if she's good, she would be good in a way that favors those team compositions and playstyles that Riot has tried to discourage in favor of teamfight-based teams.
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On July 27 2012 11:47 IMoperator wrote:
Does anyone else think Xin is borderline OP after the buff? It's pretty ridiculous how good he is.
Hes pretty strong it seems. See him all the time in high elo matches. Still have to wonder if he outclasses Irelia though. Feels like he caught up to her a lot more.
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On July 27 2012 12:20 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, my biggest problem with the Eve rework isn't even whether or not she's good now--it's that they've set her up to be a problem later.
For quite a while now, Riot has made their stance pretty clear, that they like teamfighting team compositions much better than the alternatives. Team compositions such as global-based gank teams tend to have core heroes nerfed when they start to pose significant problems for teamfight-based teams. This is fine. People like teamfighting, and it's more fun to watch as well. If Riot wants to favor and encourage teamfighting-based teams, that is perfectly acceptable.
The problem is that even with this attitude, they release Eve the way she is now--not necessarily bad, but with a kit that disfavors teamfighting so much. She has 1 long CD soft CC, an MS-based gap closer, and mediocre AoE damage. Her strengths are her ganks, strong solo chasing power, and strong damage with her steroids. Even if she's good, she would be good in a way that favors those team compositions and playstyles that Riot has tried to discourage in favor of teamfight-based teams.
Just because they prefer teamfighting champions, doesn't mean they should limit the champion pool to such.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 27 2012 12:27 wei2coolman wrote:
Just because they prefer teamfighting champions, doesn't mean they should limit the champion pool to such.
But it also means they should be careful when designing such a lopsided kit. They had a lot of options in keeping Eve the same kind of champion she is now without being so lopsided with how her kit favors non-teamfight scenarios.
With the way she is now, one of two things will happen. Either she'll end up overbuffed and be so OP that it doesn't matter that she's a bad teamfighter, or she'll be good at what she does--but nobody will pick her because teams don't play the kind of picks that can support the playstyle she encourages.
EDIT: or the 3rd option which is that she is good, and people do start playing gank-based comps with Eve,etc. then Riot decides they don't like it and nerfs her and we're back to square 1.
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I can understand the rationale for wanting a teamfight-based meta and playstyles, but honestly, I feel like gameplay will stagnate and become boring if there's no variety in viable strategies. People have already been complaining about how the "meta" of bruiser (or second AP) top, AP mid, AD+Support bot, + jungler is boring for quite a while now.
The challenge is in finding a way to have strong alternate compositions (push, gank, etc...) that don't also translate into solo queue domination/frustration for casual players.
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EPT
