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On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her.
I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid
you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK
free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun
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On July 12 2012 12:12 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
agreed, just shut up xizor malzahar is a good push champ. morgana offers a good push. heimer creates static gameplay which is bad for the game. buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play never said to buff heimer, just to have him be viable. buffing promote to make a siege minion have tower range is enough to make heimer viable. glad people like discussions "shut up" lol you guys are pretty sad. and mass clearing waves =/= a push character when that character has no way to extend the push or speed up tower sieges. in fact mass clearing leads the exact problem. towers are too strong for mass clearing to be the push strategy of choice, so teams can get into situations where both teams just clear waves constantly and NOTHING happens and the game becomes an entrenched passive game.
why are you such a martyr
you're an unranked player that 1) lied about his elo, 2) advocated a troll build/champ, and 3) got your troll build shut down publicly, and yet you still keep posting fallacious and malicious things. i'm surprised you aren't banned tbh
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On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun
I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank.
One thing I've heard Heimer Ds complain about is his mana costs. I have absolutely no idea how he works, so I can't tell what spell(s) are draining his mana or if he gets to spam some spells. The few times I've faced a heimer he did seem to chew through mana pretty quickly though.
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On July 12 2012 12:26 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank.
Ah...Morgana Flash ult WQ ignite is pretty high burst
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Oh wtf....passive mana regen increase for Eve while she's stealthed? I completely missed this when I was 'theorycrafting.'
Why isn't this out already.
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On July 12 2012 12:29 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:26 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank. Ah...Morgana Flash ult WQ ignite is pretty high burst
In which case theres still nothing jungler can do about you getting bursted in 3 seconds unless you happen to be around mid at the time.
I also hate how long her tether range is. They neuter Noc's tether range on e when they nerfed flash range, but didn't touch her ult's range in the slightest. Of course, you can make the argument that its an ult and shouldn't be so easily gotten out of, but I really don't understand why they can't shorten it just a little bit.
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Morg can pretty much 80-0 most mids with max combo. Can 100-0 weaker ones like TF with ease.
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On July 12 2012 12:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:29 Bladeorade wrote:On July 12 2012 12:26 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank. Ah...Morgana Flash ult WQ ignite is pretty high burst In which case theres still nothing jungler can do about you getting bursted in 3 seconds unless you happen to be around mid at the time. I also hate how long her tether range is. They neuter Noc's tether range on e when they nerfed flash range, but didn't touch her ult's range in the slightest. Of course, you can make the argument that its an ult and shouldn't be so easily gotten out of, but I really don't understand why they can't shorten it just a little bit.
Why should it be shortened?
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On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her.
i'm actually in 100% agreement with you, black shield should definitely not be in the game. it's just as bad if not worse than vlad's pool in terms of forgiving retarded extension and mispositioning. if it was only ally-cast it might be better
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On July 12 2012 12:23 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:12 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
agreed, just shut up xizor malzahar is a good push champ. morgana offers a good push. heimer creates static gameplay which is bad for the game. buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play never said to buff heimer, just to have him be viable. buffing promote to make a siege minion have tower range is enough to make heimer viable. glad people like discussions "shut up" lol you guys are pretty sad. and mass clearing waves =/= a push character when that character has no way to extend the push or speed up tower sieges. in fact mass clearing leads the exact problem. towers are too strong for mass clearing to be the push strategy of choice, so teams can get into situations where both teams just clear waves constantly and NOTHING happens and the game becomes an entrenched passive game. why are you such a martyr you're an unranked player that 1) lied about his elo, 2) advocated a troll build/champ, and 3) got your troll build shut down publicly, and yet you still keep posting fallacious and malicious things. i'm surprised you aren't banned tbh
and you're an arrogant player who honestly had no fucking clue what he's saying and is shockingly allowed and supported to harrass other posters. please do yourself and the community a favor and just leave. and somehow i get blamed for "derailment" when i get flamed by people for honestly no reason other than i have a different viewpoint.
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On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit.
I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been.
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On July 12 2012 12:35 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:33 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:29 Bladeorade wrote:On July 12 2012 12:26 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank. Ah...Morgana Flash ult WQ ignite is pretty high burst In which case theres still nothing jungler can do about you getting bursted in 3 seconds unless you happen to be around mid at the time. I also hate how long her tether range is. They neuter Noc's tether range on e when they nerfed flash range, but didn't touch her ult's range in the slightest. Of course, you can make the argument that its an ult and shouldn't be so easily gotten out of, but I really don't understand why they can't shorten it just a little bit. Why should it be shortened?
I just don't understand the logic of hitting Noc's range because of flash while leaving hers completely untouched.
Maybe I'm just mad.
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One problem with buffing/making Heimer viable is that his spawn turret mechanics is (very likely) considered to be "unfun." Heimer's turret mechanic encourages a kind of turtle and/or slow push play which is frustrating and annoying to deal with.
But, imo, the biggest thing holding Riot back from buffing Heimer is how potentially OP his entire kit could be. Overly powerful turrets means constant headaches for the enemy in the form of near immunity for Heimer's team in an area. Weak turrets make 25% of Heimer's abilities worthless. As it is now, Heimer definitely falls off really hard as the game goes on since his turrets are immobile and really squishy. His W is extremely long ranged poke, which can be too powerful in lane if it wasn't for the "it can hit minions" thing, which also makes it really really easy to juke. Heimer's E absolutely needs to be hard to hit, because the benefit of hitting that thing is ridiculous. The blind aoe is quite big and lasts for 3 seconds; the stun aoe is much smaller but a 1.5 second stun+an additional 1.5 second of blind after leaving stun is absolutely nothing to scoff at. If Heimer's E had the projectile speed of say Oriana's ball or other aoe skillshots it'd easily be one of the strongest non-ult skills in the game and maybe borderline broken. His ult is pretty bleh.
Kinda ninja'd by Loci heh
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On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been.
that was back when heimer had crazy strong missiles and 3 turrets. i'm not suggesting anything like that hell i just want push strategies to be real and not the retarded mass clear vs mass clear push strats that happen now, congrats your team clears a wave, the enemy clear yours and everyone sits around the tower waiting for someone to make a mistake. thats how push strategies work out now. it's far worse than the other strategy which is sit and farm your lane and hope the jungler snowballs the game in your favor so the enemy can't come back. but BOTH strategies are boring as hell to watch and play in.
@ Ryuu
slow push strats being unfun has everything to do with the inability to engage from behind and not with pushing itself.
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On July 12 2012 12:39 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been. that was back when heimer had crazy strong missiles and 3 turrets. i'm not suggesting anything like that hell i just want push strategies to be real and not the retarded mass clear vs mass clear push strats that happen now, congrats your team clears a wave, the enemy clear yours and everyone sits around the tower waiting for someone to make a mistake. thats how push strategies work out now. it's far worse than the other strategy which is sit and farm your lane and hope the jungler snowballs the game in your favor so the enemy can't come back. but BOTH strategies are boring as hell to watch and play in. @ Ryuu slow push strats being unfun has everything to do with the inability to engage from behind and not with pushing itself.
Not really. What you are seeing are not push strategies, they are teams that feel they are at a point where they can push against the other team and realize they can't. REAL push strategies are teams that are centered around poking the enemy team with long range spells while they stay for the most part protected. AP Kog and AP nidalee are the best example of this. AP Nid and Kog can hit with spears/ult for free because of their range. Push teams benefit NOT from minion clearing speed but from poking potential. Unfortunately old heimer could both poke champions and towers all while making it nearly impossible to engage with his turrets. He essentially does all 3 necessary aspects of a poke team in one. His design is straight up flawed. Either his spells get changed, or he is either useless or OP.
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On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been.
Conversely, Heimer is no longer played outside of the odd freeweek picks so to say the revered inventor is fine is his current state is suspect, I am not sure how or what I would do to improve his current lackluster state but I am leaning on the side that he could use a few tweaks. Please note that while I agree with you that I think the game is much more interesting then it was just because what a champion used to be able to do should be no reason to see no ones doing anything with him now.
In short, they need to buff Heimer, and you know I am fairly certain it can be done without giving some people night terrors of the old heimer.
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On July 12 2012 12:42 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been. Conversely, Heimer is no longer played outside of the odd freeweek picks so to say the revered inventor is fine is his current state is suspect, I am not sure how or what I would do to improve his current lackluster state but I am leaning on the side that he could use a few tweaks. Please note that while I agree with you that I think the game is much more interesting then it was just because what a champion used to be able to do should be no reason to see no ones doing anything with him now. In short, they need to buff Heimer, and you know I am fairly certain it can be done without giving some people night terrors of the old heimer.
Switching his ult and missiles (and removing the 5 missile aspect of the upgrade buff) would be pretty neat. it'd let you use upgrade to buff the speed of his grenade without blowing your ulti.
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On July 12 2012 12:42 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been. Conversely, Heimer is no longer played outside of the odd freeweek picks so to say the revered inventor is fine is his current state is suspect, I am not sure how or what I would do to improve his current lackluster state but I am leaning on the side that he could use a few tweaks. Please note that while I agree with you that I think the game is much more interesting then it was just because what a champion used to be able to do should be no reason to see no ones doing anything with him now. In short, they need to buff Heimer, and you know I am fairly certain it can be done without giving some people night terrors of the old heimer.
Did you watch IPL3? Dan played Heimer for EG and crushed TSM with it. Like it wasn't close. That was with post-nerf Heimer. He is still viable, you just actually have to build a team fight him like any other champion. Old heimer you didn't have to do shit to your teamcomp and you could still have a poke team simply because he was on it.
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On July 12 2012 12:37 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:35 Bladeorade wrote:On July 12 2012 12:33 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:29 Bladeorade wrote:On July 12 2012 12:26 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:23 arb wrote:On July 12 2012 12:21 Cloud9157 wrote:On July 12 2012 12:05 gtrsrs wrote:On July 12 2012 11:43 UniversalSnip wrote:
shut up.
buffing heimer entrenches the game into turret defense, which stifles aggressive and innovative play But Morgana gets to have the retarded kit that she has? Can't gank her, built in sustain, blue buff, and w make her the most boring champion to lane against unless you actively go out out of your way to harass her. I like when people cry about ganking Morgana mid you try to tell them blackshield isnt balanced and they're like LOL NO UR NOOB U GANK free hp and it negates cc? yeah real fun I don't really care when they yell at me about that, considering all the Morg is doing is shoving. Now if they die and yell at me, I respond by asking how they died to a Morgana. No way you can die to her unless you get caught out playing too aggressive on her or if she gets a gank. Ah...Morgana Flash ult WQ ignite is pretty high burst In which case theres still nothing jungler can do about you getting bursted in 3 seconds unless you happen to be around mid at the time. I also hate how long her tether range is. They neuter Noc's tether range on e when they nerfed flash range, but didn't touch her ult's range in the slightest. Of course, you can make the argument that its an ult and shouldn't be so easily gotten out of, but I really don't understand why they can't shorten it just a little bit. Why should it be shortened? I just don't understand the logic of hitting Noc's range because of flash while leaving hers completely untouched. Maybe I'm just mad.
Didn't they nerf flash range shortly after nerfing Noc's fear range? The logic was escaping Nocturne once he used his HUGE gap closer was impossible. So not only could Noc reach you no matter what, you couldn't escape. Whereas Morgana's gap closer is Flash (huge cooldown,) and her "tether" is her ultimate which is also on a long cooldown. Reducing her tether range would be too much of a nerf IMO. The game should be balanced around competitive play and she isnt 1pick 1 ban.
Xizor I am not blaming you for derailment, it is everyone else not ignoring your idiotic suggestions. You have consistently posted "stupid shit" not alternate view points on things. You say random shit no one is talking about that 99% of the people here think is obviously retarded and then act like a martyr when people are like "hey this guys retarded." Now no matter what it is you post people are just going to be like oh look its that retarded guy who posts stupid shit. And that's exactly what happens.
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On July 12 2012 12:39 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 12:36 LoCicero wrote:On July 12 2012 11:30 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 12 2012 11:20 gtrsrs wrote:
holy shit why do people want shit champs like evelynn and heimer to be viable? you might not have played back when heimer was first-ban status, but it was soooo stupid. there was nothing you could do to stop his slow, grindy push down mid as he chipped away at your towers with his turrets and grenades. too hard to approach, too static of gameplay. champions like eve, twitch, and heimer, that have had serious gameplay issues that can't be balanced by numbers, were nerfed for a reason. i hate that people want them back. heimer being viable or a character similar to heimer lets push strats exist and be viable also. which is way better for the game than the current nonsense meta. Re: heimers grenade without his ulti his grenade functions like a fireball does in street fighter, controlling all this space. with his ulti, it actually gets easy as hell to hit. I'm going to assume you're relatively new to League of Legends as I haven't seen you start posting until recently. Push strategies with old Heimer and blue buff were about as fun to play against as towerdodging Jax in beta and about as fun to spectate as watching paint dry. The strategy involved getting heimer 3rd blue buff after he gets deathcap and 2 doran rings and then proceeding to win the game, quite literally. When you know a team's strategy and still cannot stop it, something is very, very wrong. Your only way to beat it was to fight 5v5 before heimer could set up his turrets, which was nearly impossible because he could drop turrets faster than your team could realistically group. If you tried to split push against it you would lose your tower too quickly 5v4, and if you global ult back and engage, congrats, it's now 5v5 in heimer's clusterfuck zone. In addition Heimer's turrets gave absurd baron and dragon killing power (and still do). Heimer could also place turrets ABOVE baron and do baron from purple jungle simply with a vision ward, BY HIMSELF. Push strategies are still viable thanks to champs like nidalee/lux/morgana/xerath/anvia/kog and are still legitimate strategies, the only difference being those champions are actually beatable. The closest champ nowadays that came close to the stupidity of old heimerdinger was pre-nerf AP kog. So unless you actually enjoyed watching AP kog slowly put the enemy team to half life while his team takes their turret, you would not enjoy watching old heimerdinger. In my opinion the metagame right now is a lot more interesting than it has ever been. that was back when heimer had crazy strong missiles and 3 turrets. i'm not suggesting anything like that hell i just want push strategies to be real and not the retarded mass clear vs mass clear push strats that happen now, congrats your team clears a wave, the enemy clear yours and everyone sits around the tower waiting for someone to make a mistake. thats how push strategies work out now. it's far worse than the other strategy which is sit and farm your lane and hope the jungler snowballs the game in your favor so the enemy can't come back. but BOTH strategies are boring as hell to watch and play in.
Mass clear vs. mass clear has nothing to do with "push strats." It also has nothing to do with how strong towers are. Rather, it has all to do with itemization in LoL and how a farmed AD and/or AP carry can instaclear waves with sufficient farm.
Look at DotA 2 for example. The way push strats work in DotA 2 is to have a strong creep clearer along with heroes that can summon stuff that usually tanks towers and/or have heroes that can melt towers. Push strats inevitably fail late game because the vast majority of skills that are good at creep clearing or melting towers DO NOT SCALE past a certain point. This is completely counter to LoL. In LoL, because everything scales practically infinitely, which means creep clearing is a nonfactor. Pushing then comes down to how fast you can kill towers and how well you can force the enemy team off a tower. How fast you can kill towers is also more or less a nonfactor due to AD carries building glass cannon. As a result, "push strats" in LoL are basically either a. Poke comps or b. Global comps.
It sounds like you want DotA 2 style push strats to come to LoL, which simply won't happen due to the fundamental difference between the games.
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