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On July 08 2012 05:14 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 04:44 GreenManalishi wrote:On July 08 2012 03:47 TheYango wrote:
So, for a while now, I've been growing more and more skeptical of primary damage items on junglers (e.g. Ghostblade or Wit's). As it stands, I've been feeling that:
1) A team does not need more than 3 major DPS points to teamfight effectively (usually 2 is enough, but some teamcomps are more effective with 3)--and mid, top, and bot AD generally are more well equipped/funded to itemize for that
2) DPS items can't beat supportive items on raw cost-effectiveness--they have to benefit from scaling with other stats in order to really match up, and junglers don't have the income to really benefit from that scaling (melee requires a minimum investment toward survivability stats, and unlike top laners, the lower jungle gold doesn't allow for significant DPS itemization on top of that).
There are some exceptions based on team-comps or on specific champions (e.g. the timing of Brutalizer makes it a very efficient small investment for Lee Sin or Nocturne early game, though not necessarily upgrading to Ghostblade), and DPS items still obviously make sense in solo queue since you cannot always rely on your DPS carries to actually be capable of doing the damage they're supposed to.
Thoughts? I completely agree. Look at the 3 most competitive junglers: Maokai, Nautilus, and Mundo. They all build exclusively support items. Damage items are only useful for improving clearing, since they do not scale into the late game. Witt's End is a bit of a unique item in that it only scales with attack speed and it gives quite a lot of defensive stats. Quite of few of the more popular high damage junglers (Noct, Shyv, Udyr) either have built in attack speed, or scale particularly well from attack speed. That said, even these junglers are building less and less damage items in favour of gp10 and support items. Most Nocturnes are building HoG -> Aegis/Phage after finishing their Wriggles now instead of the Witt's End or Brutalizer that used to be more common. With how scarce money is in the new jungle, it sets you too far behind late game if you build damage items instead of just rushing gp10 and building support items. Having more than 1 Shurelya's is also extremely strong in teamfights. I would like something similar to how competitive rules in DotA limited the most powerful items. 1 Mek and 1 Guinsoo per team I think? This was back around the TC patch, so it might have changed since. There's actually more money in the new jungle than there was in the old jungle even before scaling is taken into account. The problem isn't that money is more scarce than before, but the nature of today's team compositions. Junglers are generally expected to be tanky champions who can either initiate and peel for their team's carry or dive/lock down the enemy carry. Despite the fact that there are many extremely adept junglers who fit other paradigms, those alternatives simply aren't what the vast majority of team compositions are looking for from their jungler. Obviously junglers who simply initiate and peel don't really need damage, if they do their job properly their carries murder everything for them. Junglers who dive/lock down enemies tend to need tankiness more than damage as well because damage is meaningless if you're dead. In both cases survivability and support are more valuable than damage to the point where many junglers do not buy even hybrid damage/tanky items like Abyssal or Wit's End. But that only remains true if you're following the most popular paradigm for team compositions. The moment you step away from those three major DPS sources, such as by having Urgot for your AD bottom, everything has to be rethought again. While ultimately I think TheYango has a very salient point, the exceptions are so numerous that it should be treated as a point of thought rather than as a hard rule.
ya i totally agree with this. pro teams might prefer a tanky support jungler but in solo que it is not hard to get fed and carry, especially at lower lvls. i dont spend upwards of a minute waiting in brush. i farm my jungle so that mid and lategame i can be relevant. i view it like this: the creeps in the jungle are just one extra source of farm possible for your team. if you take advantage of what is available your team can have a huge advantage later in the game. There have been many games where i farm and the opposing jungler either doesnt farm as well, or spends too long wasting time waiting for ganks, and by the midgame i can just straight up kill him. the advantage there is enormous.
ill try anyone in the jungle and i am often surprised at how effective certain champs turn out. fiora wukong and hecarim are all strong junglers that can dominate late game if you farm properly (always include gp10), and these three in particular are strong farmers. they bring different things to the table then a maokai or nautilus but if you have no confidence in your team i prefer to take things into my own hands.
building support items on the jungler is precisely drawn out of pro style jungling and what they need from their jungler. but it is NOT the only way to do it, and is often not the most effective way to play imo (depending on team comp)
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On July 08 2012 06:02 Alaric wrote:
Pff, just pick him with Morgana!
More seriously, I'm very curious about the way Arcbound think he should be played.
Also with Ori's damage coming from W now (before ult level 3 it actually out damages her R), I'm feeling hungry for CDR. Which items would you buy for this, assuming you can't rely on having every blue buff? Grail's good but you'd build it from chalice, so the cdr part would come late, I'm wary about DFG since it's range has been nerfed and Ori prefers to stay out of harm's way. Maybe I'll buy more blue pots on her.
Fiendish Codex can be bought with/instead of the cup, giving you some ap, mr, and cdr.
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Yep, but if you go calice it's usually rather early, so that you can sustain yourself manawise. That's what I meant by "usually you'll have the codex later" (especially since I don't think grail as first major item is worth it AP-wise).
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The CDR Mana item that builds into frozen heart is realllllly good on CDR champs. On Orianna you want big items anyway so if you don't want frozen heart don't finish it.
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Yeah, but I just think Orianna benefits a lot more from mana regen than she would from cdr. Kinda sucks that she needs both a fair amount.
Usually just go 2 rings>hat or get a rod myself. Usually find myself with decent mana and clearing waves+jungle just fine. Of course the cdr would come in handy during a team fight after your initial whatever.
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On July 08 2012 01:02 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 00:12 h3r1n6 wrote:
With Oris E and passive you can outtrade Kennen in auto attacks, as long as he doesn't get a stun off. not that hard to get a stun off with kennen. he outrades anyone.
Anivia with 2 1.0 AP ratio moves says Hi. No one outtrades the bird.
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On July 08 2012 07:35 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 01:02 bokeevboke wrote:On July 08 2012 00:12 h3r1n6 wrote:
With Oris E and passive you can outtrade Kennen in auto attacks, as long as he doesn't get a stun off. not that hard to get a stun off with kennen. he outrades anyone. Anivia with 2 1.0 AP ratio moves says Hi. No one outtrades the bird.
Good luck landing the 2nd part of your Q while you are stunned. GL getting back in range in time to E.
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On July 08 2012 06:44 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 05:56 Gryffes wrote:
Nunu is back baby!
I had a 60% winrate in ranked S1 with him, until the nerfs then never touched him again apart from a few ashe support lanes for fun.
Jungle clear time is extremely good and he does exactly what he used to do in teamfights.
Running 15% aspeed, armour, mres runes 9/12/9 masteries
Boots+3 pots > Philo > Boots > Banshee Veil > Aegis or Frozen heart ( Frozen first if lots of AD autoattackers ). > Game should be over.
QWE QER, then R>E>W>Q priority.
Just remember that nunu is an enabling jungler ( for the laner to kill them usually ) and is mainly a sick teamfight disrupter - bloodboil your carry > flash into the middle of their team and hit ulti ( why you need banshee ).
Why in heaven's name would you run 15% aspeed when bloodboil is always up lol.
Because it keeps the passive up faster which is more important than a small on hit damage bonus.
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Why would you go boots3 on Nunu jungle? There's no reason to do that over the classic boots1+ward opening.
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On July 08 2012 07:52 koreasilver wrote:
Why would you go boots3 on Nunu jungle? There's no reason to do that over the classic boots1+ward opening.
Yeah you could do that, pretty much personal preference as nunu doesn't have to recall for a longggggggggggggggggg time.
That's like my day 1 nunu build after not touching him since last seasons nerf date.
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On July 08 2012 07:20 Eppa! wrote:
The CDR Mana item that builds into frozen heart is realllllly good on CDR champs. On Orianna you want big items anyway so if you don't want frozen heart don't finish it.
Isn't that wasting a ton of gold on armor though? I think just biting the bullet and getting Codex earlier would be better.
Also, I dont see the appeal to play Jayce over Nidalee... Their kits very very similar, just like... you can gank Jayce. I guess he might scale better with AD? I dunno.
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On July 08 2012 07:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:20 Eppa! wrote:
The CDR Mana item that builds into frozen heart is realllllly good on CDR champs. On Orianna you want big items anyway so if you don't want frozen heart don't finish it. Isn't that wasting a ton of gold on armor though? I think just biting the bullet and getting Codex earlier would be better. Also, I dont see the appeal to play Jayce over Nidalee... Their kits very very similar, just like... you can gank Jayce. I guess he might scale better with AD? I dunno.
Nid is shit in team fights.
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On July 08 2012 02:43 Morfildur wrote:
Wow, just tried jayce and his hammer E must get nerfed soon. Like Jax there is no way to escape him due to his hammer jump and mode switch and gun speed boost and he can dish out lots of physical damage but then does %-based magic damage, so you need to get armor and MR to play against him.
Did i mention that his hammer E also kicks the target away so it can't retaliate in a trade?
Give him a triforce and he should be unstoppable.
Well, maybe it's just my first impression and he's weaker than he seems.
In a vacuum E is strong. However, what tools does he have on the toplane? No sustain, no shield. His only tool is to harrass his opponents off the lane. He's not a WW with his Q who outheals opponents. He needs to be able to trade effectively, through shields and sustain. Otherwise he has no chance to lane at all.
I kind of think that he's somewhat weak actually, lack of ulti really hurts and his laning seems very vulnerable and easy to counterpick. However maybe I just haven't found the best build yet.
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On July 08 2012 07:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:20 Eppa! wrote:
The CDR Mana item that builds into frozen heart is realllllly good on CDR champs. On Orianna you want big items anyway so if you don't want frozen heart don't finish it. Isn't that wasting a ton of gold on armor though? I think just biting the bullet and getting Codex earlier would be better. Also, I dont see the appeal to play Jayce over Nidalee... Their kits very very similar, just like... you can gank Jayce. I guess he might scale better with AD? I dunno.
Jayce hard to gank aswell, gets free mr/arm if bruiser, transform gives movespeed, that accelerate shit gives movespeed and he has a knockback.
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On July 08 2012 03:47 TheYango wrote:
So, for a while now, I've been growing more and more skeptical of primary damage items on junglers (e.g. Ghostblade or Wit's). As it stands, I've been feeling that:
1) A team does not need more than 3 major DPS points to teamfight effectively (usually 2 is enough, but some teamcomps are more effective with 3)--and mid, top, and bot AD generally are more well equipped/funded to itemize for that
2) DPS items can't beat supportive items on raw cost-effectiveness--they have to benefit from scaling with other stats in order to really match up, and junglers don't have the income to really benefit from that scaling (melee requires a minimum investment toward survivability stats, and unlike top laners, the lower jungle gold doesn't allow for significant DPS itemization on top of that).
There are some exceptions based on team-comps or on specific champions (e.g. the timing of Brutalizer makes it a very efficient small investment for Lee Sin or Nocturne early game, though not necessarily upgrading to Ghostblade), and DPS items still obviously make sense in solo queue since you cannot always rely on your DPS carries to actually be capable of doing the damage they're supposed to.
Thoughts?
Agree.
Basically what you're saying is "Hey, when AD has retarded multipliers on their items and even AP outscales your standard top/jungle when it comes to damage / gold invested why not funnel all available gold into them?"
However, I'd say this is at this point in time mostly a mentality problem. It's not rare that the AD carry tries to farm top for a huge wave saying "I'm 1k from my LW" with the answer from top being "OMG STOP FARMING MY LANE OMG GTFO".
The rough part about this strategic approach would be that it revolves around Jungle/Top being incredibly CC / midgame heavy with the goal of creating pressure and therefore space for at least one of the carries to farm up harder than the enemy. At first it would be worth a try to actively not just run a "4 protects 1" strat, but to actively try to let that 1 take any and all pushed waves. Push them back, go to the next pushed wave, repeat.
Dno, it's superior to "top farms top, mid farms mid and bot farms bot" by a wide margin on paper, in practice travel time and proper mapcontrol are the biggest problems imo.
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On July 08 2012 08:21 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:57 iCanada wrote:On July 08 2012 07:20 Eppa! wrote:
The CDR Mana item that builds into frozen heart is realllllly good on CDR champs. On Orianna you want big items anyway so if you don't want frozen heart don't finish it. Isn't that wasting a ton of gold on armor though? I think just biting the bullet and getting Codex earlier would be better. Also, I dont see the appeal to play Jayce over Nidalee... Their kits very very similar, just like... you can gank Jayce. I guess he might scale better with AD? I dunno. Jayce hard to gank aswell, gets free mr/arm if bruiser, transform gives movespeed, that accelerate shit gives movespeed and he has a knockback.
His base stats are low. Free mres / armor sure, but much less than you'd think. Only about 14 free mr and 25 armor, I'd say.
Otherwise I kind of agree, though having no blink-type escape still hurts rather badly. Melee E is really good though.
Oh yeah and during laning you generally don't level R so that means that his base stats are lower than just about any other bruiser's, so saying you get free mr/armor in laning is completely incorrect
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Jayce + Nunu bot lane was friggin' annoying to try and catch when we couldn't instaburst them tho. All those slows and MS buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuffs... ng.
Is the TSM invitational stream unwatchable for others too? It's lagging like mad in absolutely all res, and I haven't had a single problem they went into champ select for that first game.
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On July 08 2012 03:47 TheYango wrote:
So, for a while now, I've been growing more and more skeptical of primary damage items on junglers (e.g. Ghostblade or Wit's). As it stands, I've been feeling that:
1) A team does not need more than 3 major DPS points to teamfight effectively (usually 2 is enough, but some teamcomps are more effective with 3)--and mid, top, and bot AD generally are more well equipped/funded to itemize for that
2) DPS items can't beat supportive items on raw cost-effectiveness--they have to benefit from scaling with other stats in order to really match up, and junglers don't have the income to really benefit from that scaling (melee requires a minimum investment toward survivability stats, and unlike top laners, the lower jungle gold doesn't allow for significant DPS itemization on top of that).
There are some exceptions based on team-comps or on specific champions (e.g. the timing of Brutalizer makes it a very efficient small investment for Lee Sin or Nocturne early game, though not necessarily upgrading to Ghostblade), and DPS items still obviously make sense in solo queue since you cannot always rely on your DPS carries to actually be capable of doing the damage they're supposed to.
Thoughts?
Yeah I've been thinking that for a while now. There just isn't enough gold in the jungle to get any amount of DPS because you won't be tanky enough. The mid wants your blue and wraiths, the bot wants your golems, and red, that only leaves the wolves consistently for you after your first couple of clears. Assuming not too many deaths going on the amount of farm from lanes isnt that high, and you can't afford to farm your jungle a lot to do your job. The tank jungle is just going to become more and more prominent now, any kind of "bruisers" really tend to just go top lane.
I'm still destroying whenever I jungle udyr though, maybe he clears creeps fast enough and moves around the map fast enough that he can get away with it.
The number of DPS'ers in a teamfight isn't a relevant discussion I think. You can have squishy teams and tanky teams. It's more a matter of: a tanky dps champ needs to balance both defensive stats to stay in a fight and DPS stats to be a threat. It means he's the most gold expensive champ just to be viable with. A tank can always do his job and just build tank items to get it done, and if he gets focused he gets his burst off. A bruiser typically needs to stay alive to be more worthwhile than a tank. Ranged classes can stay out of the heat and being a bit underfarmed can be accounted for by defensive play or other members doing better. Having a tank jungler just makes sense because they are less farm dependent, have good ganks and tend to be solid junglers in terms of clearing minions. Having a tank top lane is still good and I think a tank top lane is the right time to pick your more offensive junglers.
That said nocturne is played quite a lot simply because of how BS that ult is for ganking. His teamfighting is awkward because he has no tank steroids.
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On July 08 2012 09:04 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 03:47 TheYango wrote:
So, for a while now, I've been growing more and more skeptical of primary damage items on junglers (e.g. Ghostblade or Wit's). As it stands, I've been feeling that:
1) A team does not need more than 3 major DPS points to teamfight effectively (usually 2 is enough, but some teamcomps are more effective with 3)--and mid, top, and bot AD generally are more well equipped/funded to itemize for that
2) DPS items can't beat supportive items on raw cost-effectiveness--they have to benefit from scaling with other stats in order to really match up, and junglers don't have the income to really benefit from that scaling (melee requires a minimum investment toward survivability stats, and unlike top laners, the lower jungle gold doesn't allow for significant DPS itemization on top of that).
There are some exceptions based on team-comps or on specific champions (e.g. the timing of Brutalizer makes it a very efficient small investment for Lee Sin or Nocturne early game, though not necessarily upgrading to Ghostblade), and DPS items still obviously make sense in solo queue since you cannot always rely on your DPS carries to actually be capable of doing the damage they're supposed to.
Thoughts? Yeah I've been thinking that for a while now. There just isn't enough gold in the jungle to get any amount of DPS because you won't be tanky enough. The mid wants your blue and wraiths, the bot wants your golems, and red, that only leaves the wolves consistently for you after your first couple of clears. Assuming not too many deaths going on the amount of farm from lanes isnt that high, and you can't afford to farm your jungle a lot to do your job. The tank jungle is just going to become more and more prominent now, any kind of "bruisers" really tend to just go top lane. I'm still destroying whenever I jungle udyr though, maybe he clears creeps fast enough and moves around the map fast enough that he can get away with it.
When you are allowed to farm the jungle it's actually very competitive with lanes unless you're looking at near-perfect CS. Any jungler like Udyr with a mid-game timing can do well. The problem is that leaving your lanes to themselves is fairly suicidal for your team.
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So after playing ori games today.. I think it's a nerf :\
Jayce is also pretty good.. not terribly OP but his E needs to be brought down a bit
hahahah also if you play for too long the client tells you to take a break. On voyboys stream it just said "You have been playing for 9 hours. Remember to take a break every once in a while!"
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EPT
