EPT[Patch 1.0.0.142: Jayce] General Discussion - Page 13
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Leonite7
Ireland921 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
On July 08 2012 04:29 TheYango wrote: The problem is that "constantly" is pretty unreliable when it comes to small camps. Either you take the whole camp, and you're obligated to come back in 60 seconds if you want to reliably get it again (you pretty much just get to do 2 camps and then have to come back right away to make it in time), or you leave 1 small wraith up and then you're pretty much guessing at the timer. With buffs, it's largely reliant on how the laners respond and how the ensuing scuffle plays out more than the counterjungling strength of the jungler. Honestly speaking, when it comes to buffs, the most reliable counterjunglers aren't the ones with counterjungling skills, but those with reliable teamfighting kits for winning 3v3s and 4v4s. I just leave one wraith, and most junglers I play against always clear it almost immediately, if they leave it to never respawn they're denying themselves and my job is already done | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 08 2012 04:33 MooMooMugi wrote: I just leave one wraith, and most junglers I play against always clear it almost immediately, if they leave it to never respawn they're denying themselves and my job is already done You're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying to leave the wraith, but if you leave one up, you've got a variance of 10-15 seconds (not even close to "almost immediately" when the camp respawn is 60 seconds) for when the enemy jungler might clear that camp (if he's at a small camp, it could take like 10 seconds for him to finish that camp and get to the Wraith camp--and much longer if he's camping a lane trying to gank). With 10-15 seconds, you can very easily miss the timing of the wraith camp (wastes your time to go there and find the camp already cleared) or get ganked there. Reliable small camp counterjungling has pretty much always revolved around controlling the camp timer. I don't see why the enemy jungler would leave his wraiths for you to take when he knows you have an eye on it, but he has a more accurate count on when it's up next (unless he's doing something more important than those wraiths, obviously). | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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Scis
8 Posts
On July 08 2012 04:37 TheYango wrote: You're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying to leave the wraith, but if you leave one up, you've got a variance of 10-15 seconds (not even close to "almost immediately" when the camp respawn is 60 seconds) for when the enemy jungler might clear that camp (if he's at a small camp, it could take like 10 seconds for him to finish that camp and get to the Wraith camp--and much longer if he's camping a lane trying to gank). With 10-15 seconds, you can very easily miss the timing of the wraith camp (wastes your time to go there and find the camp already cleared) or get ganked there. Reliable small camp counterjungling has pretty much always revolved around controlling the camp timer. I don't see why the enemy jungler would leave his wraiths for you to take when he knows you have an eye on it, but he has a more accurate count on when it's up next. I don't understand how the problem with tracking the timer on wraiths can't be solved by simply putting your wraith ward a bit deeper so you can see the actual camp. Obviously that doesn't work for golems and wolves, but those are much rarer to counter anyways. | ||
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GreenManalishi
Canada834 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:47 TheYango wrote: So, for a while now, I've been growing more and more skeptical of primary damage items on junglers (e.g. Ghostblade or Wit's). As it stands, I've been feeling that: 1) A team does not need more than 3 major DPS points to teamfight effectively (usually 2 is enough, but some teamcomps are more effective with 3)--and mid, top, and bot AD generally are more well equipped/funded to itemize for that 2) DPS items can't beat supportive items on raw cost-effectiveness--they have to benefit from scaling with other stats in order to really match up, and junglers don't have the income to really benefit from that scaling (melee requires a minimum investment toward survivability stats, and unlike top laners, the lower jungle gold doesn't allow for significant DPS itemization on top of that). There are some exceptions based on team-comps or on specific champions (e.g. the timing of Brutalizer makes it a very efficient small investment for Lee Sin or Nocturne early game, though not necessarily upgrading to Ghostblade), and DPS items still obviously make sense in solo queue since you cannot always rely on your DPS carries to actually be capable of doing the damage they're supposed to. Thoughts? I completely agree. Look at the 3 most competitive junglers: Maokai, Nautilus, and Mundo. They all build exclusively support items. Damage items are only useful for improving clearing, since they do not scale into the late game. Witt's End is a bit of a unique item in that it only scales with attack speed and it gives quite a lot of defensive stats. Quite of few of the more popular high damage junglers (Noct, Shyv, Udyr) either have built in attack speed, or scale particularly well from attack speed. That said, even these junglers are building less and less damage items in favour of gp10 and support items. Most Nocturnes are building HoG -> Aegis/Phage after finishing their Wriggles now instead of the Witt's End or Brutalizer that used to be more common. With how scarce money is in the new jungle, it sets you too far behind late game if you build damage items instead of just rushing gp10 and building support items. Having more than 1 Shurelya's is also extremely strong in teamfights. I would like something similar to how competitive rules in DotA limited the most powerful items. 1 Mek and 1 Guinsoo per team I think? This was back around the TC patch, so it might have changed since. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On July 08 2012 04:44 GreenManalishi wrote: I completely agree. Look at the 3 most competitive junglers: Maokai, Nautilus, and Mundo. They all build exclusively support items. Damage items are only useful for improving clearing, since they do not scale into the late game. Witt's End is a bit of a unique item in that it only scales with attack speed and it gives quite a lot of defensive stats. Quite of few of the more popular high damage junglers (Noct, Shyv, Udyr) either have built in attack speed, or scale particularly well from attack speed. That said, even these junglers are building less and less damage items in favour of gp10 and support items. Most Nocturnes are building HoG -> Aegis/Phage after finishing their Wriggles now instead of the Witt's End or Brutalizer that used to be more common. With how scarce money is in the new jungle, it sets you too far behind late game if you build damage items instead of just rushing gp10 and building support items. Having more than 1 Shurelya's is also extremely strong in teamfights. I would like something similar to how competitive rules in DotA limited the most powerful items. 1 Mek and 1 Guinsoo per team I think? This was back around the TC patch, so it might have changed since. There's actually more money in the new jungle than there was in the old jungle even before scaling is taken into account. The problem isn't that money is more scarce than before, but the nature of today's team compositions. Junglers are generally expected to be tanky champions who can either initiate and peel for their team's carry or dive/lock down the enemy carry. Despite the fact that there are many extremely adept junglers who fit other paradigms, those alternatives simply aren't what the vast majority of team compositions are looking for from their jungler. Obviously junglers who simply initiate and peel don't really need damage, if they do their job properly their carries murder everything for them. Junglers who dive/lock down enemies tend to need tankiness more than damage as well because damage is meaningless if you're dead. In both cases survivability and support are more valuable than damage to the point where many junglers do not buy even hybrid damage/tanky items like Abyssal or Wit's End. But that only remains true if you're following the most popular paradigm for team compositions. The moment you step away from those three major DPS sources, such as by having Urgot for your AD bottom, everything has to be rethought again. While ultimately I think TheYango has a very salient point, the exceptions are so numerous that it should be treated as a point of thought rather than as a hard rule. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:57 CeriseCherries wrote: i REALLY DONT LIKE HOW JAYCE LOOKS. he's looks like every cartoon's dude who thinks he's swashbuckling but is actually arrogant and stupid I believe that it's actually what was intended. As for the "popular junglers", Mundo actually scales very well into the late game, being tanky as hell and with a +100 AD steroid on his E. His power simply shifts from W (very good scaling until it's maxed, at level 9) to E. | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
I had a 60% winrate in ranked S1 with him, until the nerfs then never touched him again apart from a few ashe support lanes for fun. Jungle clear time is extremely good and he does exactly what he used to do in teamfights. Running 15% aspeed, armour, mres runes 9/12/9 masteries Boots+3 pots > Philo > Boots > Banshee Veil > Aegis or Frozen heart ( Frozen first if lots of AD autoattackers ). > Game should be over. QWE QER, then R>E>W>Q priority. Just remember that nunu is an enabling jungler ( for the laner to kill them usually ) and is mainly a sick teamfight disrupter - bloodboil your carry > flash into the middle of their team and hit ulti ( why you need banshee ). | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
More seriously, I'm very curious about the way Arcbound think he should be played. Also with Ori's damage coming from W now (before ult level 3 it actually out damages her R), I'm feeling hungry for CDR. Which items would you buy for this, assuming you can't rely on having every blue buff? Grail's good but you'd build it from chalice, so the cdr part would come late, I'm wary about DFG since it's range has been nerfed and Ori prefers to stay out of harm's way. Maybe I'll buy more blue pots on her. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 08 2012 06:32 SnK-Arcbound wrote: What happened to all those chinese teams that hotshot was shit talking so long ago. The vast majority of Chinese teams are significantly below WE's level. | ||
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GreenManalishi
Canada834 Posts
WE is at OGN in Korea, IG and EHome are both still participating in Chinese tournies. EHome played at IEM and did pretty badly. IG doesn't seem to leave China, so it is hard to really evaluate how they are doing. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On July 08 2012 05:56 Gryffes wrote: Nunu is back baby! I had a 60% winrate in ranked S1 with him, until the nerfs then never touched him again apart from a few ashe support lanes for fun. Jungle clear time is extremely good and he does exactly what he used to do in teamfights. Running 15% aspeed, armour, mres runes 9/12/9 masteries Boots+3 pots > Philo > Boots > Banshee Veil > Aegis or Frozen heart ( Frozen first if lots of AD autoattackers ). > Game should be over. QWE QER, then R>E>W>Q priority. Just remember that nunu is an enabling jungler ( for the laner to kill them usually ) and is mainly a sick teamfight disrupter - bloodboil your carry > flash into the middle of their team and hit ulti ( why you need banshee ). Why in heaven's name would you run 15% aspeed when bloodboil is always up lol. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On July 08 2012 06:38 GreenManalishi wrote: Which ones? I thought Hotshot was pretty respectful when talking about WE, EHome, or IG. I don't really know much about the other Chinese teams, so I can't comment on that. WE is at OGN in Korea, IG and EHome are both still participating in Chinese tournies. EHome played at IEM and did pretty badly. IG doesn't seem to leave China, so it is hard to really evaluate how they are doing. There's also CLC who particpated in the Pro-Asia Go4LoL and several other Chinese teams from the Tencent Tournaments such as LGD. They're much below the level of WE/former iG though, | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:58 LaNague wrote: i liked viktor, but his huge laser bugs make him unplayable. Its like another passive: "Vitkor uses the newest laser technology to make his laser sometimes invisible, but often times this device fails and the laser will stop working and do no damage". oh and the jace hammer looked to me like a warhammer warrior prist, i got excited when i saw the artwork, but the rest of jayce is nothing like warhammer  actually, the full metal skin looks a bit like a tau from warhammer 40k, too. I think you meant his juge laser bugs make him OP. It's impossible to dodge his laser when you don't see it coming. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 08 2012 06:38 GreenManalishi wrote: Which ones? I thought Hotshot was pretty respectful when talking about WE, EHome, or IG. I don't really know much about the other Chinese teams, so I can't comment on that. WE is at OGN in Korea, IG and EHome are both still participating in Chinese tournies. EHome played at IEM and did pretty badly. IG doesn't seem to leave China, so it is hard to really evaluate how they are doing. iG lost its two best players--without Wh1t3zz and MikakoTabe, iG just isn't that strong. | ||
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MindBreaker
United States574 Posts
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Qualm
721 Posts
I don't know why they don't just revert everything they did to him... | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 08 2012 06:57 MindBreaker wrote: Just played with a jayce. Don't know what the guy was building went warmogs frOzen heart BT zerkers. He did nothing. He was pretty irrelevant I'n fights. Always got caught by blitz cause no escape. Hopefully the guy just sucked. Played with one earlier today. Went Triforce + Wit's + tank, actually did pretty damn decently. Has pretty great poke with speedboosted powershot thingy and really good initiate along with decent damage. Doesn't seem OP to me, but then again I'm not 2k. | ||
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