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On July 18 2012 05:06 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:55 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading what I typed out? Yes, I agree, gp10 is not as good for most mids, but considering how TF plays out. "actual AP items" on TF work out to the same efficiency as "gp10" items on TF. And if this is the case, then gp10 is just naturally better, because of gp10. lol i read your post. maybe you should read everyone elses 
Everyone keeps saying you need the additional AP on TF earlier on in the game. I'm merely saying that the additional AP on TF early on is inconsequential to an aggressive gank heavy TF. Simply by out numbering an opponent in lane, the base damage of tf's spells + the stun should be more than enough to A) gank lane successfully B)push/farm your lane, both of which are what are TF's main goals are. Additional AP on TF early on, only barely increases his ability to gank other lanes, since his ganks are usually based on his ability to stun, not necessarily his ability to do a lot of damage, and his ability to shove the lane is actually the same as a gp10 TF.
So essentially the utility of early AP tf is ~ gp10 tf, so why not gp10?
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Gp10 meta is dumb, I've seen regi go 0/5 in lane but still kinda catch up in items because of dumb passive gold generation.
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Why would TF buy an amp tome after his gp10 instead of saving up for his dcap? Enjoy your gp10 when that dragon fight breaks out and the enemy mid does more damage than you.
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On July 18 2012 05:17 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. gp10 meta is here because the stats you get from actual items are trivial in comparison to base damage on skills until you obtain deathcap. basically unless the other midlaner also gets gp10, it requires effort on their part to punish you, and if nothing happens you "win by doing absolutely nothing" as idra would say ;P.
^ EXACTLY. this is also why, one of the teams, i think orb? doesnt' run gp10 karthus against TSM, because regi's aggressive playstyle + oddone's babysitting midlane SHUTS DOWN gp10 mid strategy. But against other mids, they're more willing to run the gp10, because most mids play passive farm lane in mid, rather than balls to the walls snowball mid.
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On July 18 2012 05:22 JackDino wrote:
Why would TF buy an amp tome after his gp10 instead of saving up for his dcap? Enjoy your gp10 when that dragon fight breaks out and the enemy mid does more damage than you.
I was talking about over all gold, obviously you don't build amp tome after 3gp10, but if you're going to compare what you could get w/ set amount of gold, around 3000~, amp tome needs to be added into 3gp10 build to equivalence out the gold for 2dring+nlr.
The enemy mid may do more damage than you, but then you forget what TF does exceptionally well. and that is shuts down lanes due to a gank ever 100seconds. You can't just isolate the midlane, to 1v1 matchup, especially when talking about TF.
Not to mention, even if you go early AP on TF, he still does less damage than a lot of other AP's building the same AP build. (anivia, cass, karthus, etc etc etc), so not really a relevant point when talking about damage out put during a dragon fight.
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Actually he's trading 65 AP for 90 HP and 18HP/5
18HP/5 over 10 Minutes (~ time from philo to deathcap) is 2160 healing. Sure, some of that will be wasted, but thats quite a bit of sustain, especially combined with blue card.
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On July 18 2012 05:20 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:06 De4ngus wrote:On July 18 2012 04:55 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading what I typed out? Yes, I agree, gp10 is not as good for most mids, but considering how TF plays out. "actual AP items" on TF work out to the same efficiency as "gp10" items on TF. And if this is the case, then gp10 is just naturally better, because of gp10. lol i read your post. maybe you should read everyone elses Everyone keeps saying you need the additional AP on TF earlier on in the game. I'm merely saying that the additional AP on TF early on is inconsequential to an aggressive gank heavy TF. Simply by out numbering an opponent in lane, the base damage of tf's spells + the stun should be more than enough to A) gank lane successfully B)push/farm your lane, both of which are what are TF's main goals are. Additional AP on TF early on, only barely increases his ability to gank other lanes, since his ganks are usually based on his ability to stun, not necessarily his ability to do a lot of damage, and his ability to shove the lane is actually the same as a gp10 TF. So essentially the utility of early AP tf is ~ gp10 tf, so why not gp10?
i understand your reasoning, but as you get higher, people will become more aggressive about ganking and counterganking accordingly, and the increased efficiency and affordability of dorans items (and imo qss / zhonya, i personally think dcap rush and subsequently pure damage is kind of overrated) and earlier timing on these stats will matter a lot more at these points in time.
i think triple gold/10 is definitely doable and effective in certain circumstances (stalling the game for certain power peaks etc), but that you would want some greater pre-planning before getting it than just "triple gold/10 = regular build in effectiveness" because i can tell you that that is not true. if anything i would consider it if i was going to get shurelyas as an ap.
imagine your first back. you back with somewhere between 1000-1400 gold (which happens quite often). you could buy 1 gp/10 item and another piece of a gp/10 item + consumables or you could get 3 dorans and consumables. which one will be able to dictate lane pressure and open up ganking opportunities / excel at these ganks better? often, if you can't dictate lane, if the enemy has a cc, they can monitor you (with good ward coverage so they dont get ganked) and reduce ur ganking effectiveness a lot.
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On July 18 2012 05:27 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:20 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:06 De4ngus wrote:On July 18 2012 04:55 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading what I typed out? Yes, I agree, gp10 is not as good for most mids, but considering how TF plays out. "actual AP items" on TF work out to the same efficiency as "gp10" items on TF. And if this is the case, then gp10 is just naturally better, because of gp10. lol i read your post. maybe you should read everyone elses Everyone keeps saying you need the additional AP on TF earlier on in the game. I'm merely saying that the additional AP on TF early on is inconsequential to an aggressive gank heavy TF. Simply by out numbering an opponent in lane, the base damage of tf's spells + the stun should be more than enough to A) gank lane successfully B)push/farm your lane, both of which are what are TF's main goals are. Additional AP on TF early on, only barely increases his ability to gank other lanes, since his ganks are usually based on his ability to stun, not necessarily his ability to do a lot of damage, and his ability to shove the lane is actually the same as a gp10 TF. So essentially the utility of early AP tf is ~ gp10 tf, so why not gp10? i understand your reasoning, but as you get higher, people will become more aggressive about ganking and counterganking accordingly, and the increased efficiency and affordability of dorans items (and imo qss / zhonya, i personally think dcap rush and subsequently pure damage is kind of overrated) and earlier timing on these stats will matter a lot more at these points in time. i think triple gold/10 is definitely doable and effective in certain circumstances (stalling the game for certain power peaks etc), but that you would want some greater pre-planning before getting it than just "triple gold/10 = regular build in effectiveness" because i can tell you that that is not true. if anything i would consider it if i was going to get shurelyas as an ap.
The earlier timing on these stats only matter in a closed environment, where you're fighting on equal grounds, 2v2, 1v1, 3v3. But with TF, you never fight on equal ground. You always want to be fighting 2v1, 3v1,3v2, etc etc. Especially in the earlier timings you mention.
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On July 18 2012 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:27 Navi wrote:On July 18 2012 05:20 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:06 De4ngus wrote:On July 18 2012 04:55 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading what I typed out? Yes, I agree, gp10 is not as good for most mids, but considering how TF plays out. "actual AP items" on TF work out to the same efficiency as "gp10" items on TF. And if this is the case, then gp10 is just naturally better, because of gp10. lol i read your post. maybe you should read everyone elses Everyone keeps saying you need the additional AP on TF earlier on in the game. I'm merely saying that the additional AP on TF early on is inconsequential to an aggressive gank heavy TF. Simply by out numbering an opponent in lane, the base damage of tf's spells + the stun should be more than enough to A) gank lane successfully B)push/farm your lane, both of which are what are TF's main goals are. Additional AP on TF early on, only barely increases his ability to gank other lanes, since his ganks are usually based on his ability to stun, not necessarily his ability to do a lot of damage, and his ability to shove the lane is actually the same as a gp10 TF. So essentially the utility of early AP tf is ~ gp10 tf, so why not gp10? i understand your reasoning, but as you get higher, people will become more aggressive about ganking and counterganking accordingly, and the increased efficiency and affordability of dorans items (and imo qss / zhonya, i personally think dcap rush and subsequently pure damage is kind of overrated) and earlier timing on these stats will matter a lot more at these points in time. i think triple gold/10 is definitely doable and effective in certain circumstances (stalling the game for certain power peaks etc), but that you would want some greater pre-planning before getting it than just "triple gold/10 = regular build in effectiveness" because i can tell you that that is not true. if anything i would consider it if i was going to get shurelyas as an ap. The earlier timing on these stats only matter in a closed environment, where you're fighting on equal grounds, 2v2, 1v1, 3v3. But with TF, you never fight on equal ground. You always want to be fighting 2v1, 3v1,3v2, etc etc. Especially in the earlier timings you mention.
Not necessarily. Dragon fights, counter ganks, invades, counter invades, and clean up fights often consist of same sized groups. If your jungler goes in to their red, finds their jungler, their mid goes in, and you follow, it is now a 2v2 and in that case, you can't rely on "gold card and superior numbers" to win you the fight. If, for instance, top gets ganked and you ult up there to save them, it's a 2v2. If your mid pushes harder than you and roams (Morg, Anivia, Annie can push as hard or harder, in my experience), then go bot, you follow and now it's 3v3. Or worse, their jungler goes down and it's 4v3.
In a perfect environment where you get to dictate the flow, where you roam to, are always up in numbers, and no one ever gets caught and needs to be saved, you're right. Any other time where you're going to be expected to do damage as the mid carry, actual items will outweigh those gp10s, imo.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On July 18 2012 05:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:22 JackDino wrote:
Why would TF buy an amp tome after his gp10 instead of saving up for his dcap? Enjoy your gp10 when that dragon fight breaks out and the enemy mid does more damage than you. I was talking about over all gold, obviously you don't build amp tome after 3gp10, but if you're going to compare what you could get w/ set amount of gold, around 3000~, amp tome needs to be added into 3gp10 build to equivalence out the gold for 2dring+nlr. The enemy mid may do more damage than you, but then you forget what TF does exceptionally well. and that is shuts down lanes due to a gank ever 100seconds. You can't just isolate the midlane, to 1v1 matchup, especially when talking about TF. Not to mention, even if you go early AP on TF, he still does less damage than a lot of other AP's building the same AP build. (anivia, cass, karthus, etc etc etc), so not really a relevant point when talking about damage out put during a dragon fight.
I definitely like the idea of using GP10 items to fill in the money "lost" while TF is ganking, which will happen often.
But the difference in AP, which you pointed out is not that much, does actually make a huge difference when considering 3 things.
Wave clearing - You actually can't clear a wave with Q+red card when farming without an early NLR, because the red card AOE doesn't reach the ranged minions. You'd need your Q to one-shot the range minions and then finish off the melee minions with red-card. With NLR you can do this, but without you can't. Without an NLR, You'd have to Q the creeps, Red card the melee then hit each of the ranged creeps, which is about 2+ seconds longer to clear a wave (which may not seem long but it makes a difference)
Tower Pushing - Blue carding the tower is a really effective way to take a chunk out of its HP. Without the AP from NLR this is hard to do.
Gank Power - The difference in dmg with Yellow + Q with an NLR is huge with just the AP from Kage's. The argument is that since it's a 3v2 or 2v1, the lack in AP should be okay since you are a man up, but a TF without much AP does so little dmg compared to TF with AP (from early NLR) that many times you will find your ganks to be disappointing.
With that said, I do want to explore options to replace doran's with GP10 items, while still getting an early NLR, since I feel like the mana-regen from Dorans is really wasted on TF (thx to Blue card). A lot of times if I'm really ahead I just skip 1 dorans.
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On July 18 2012 06:04 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:27 Navi wrote:On July 18 2012 05:20 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:06 De4ngus wrote:On July 18 2012 04:55 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 04:51 De4ngus wrote:
skumbag gp10 meta. dw it will go away when people realize how much more useful the stats you get from actual items are. I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading what I typed out? Yes, I agree, gp10 is not as good for most mids, but considering how TF plays out. "actual AP items" on TF work out to the same efficiency as "gp10" items on TF. And if this is the case, then gp10 is just naturally better, because of gp10. lol i read your post. maybe you should read everyone elses Everyone keeps saying you need the additional AP on TF earlier on in the game. I'm merely saying that the additional AP on TF early on is inconsequential to an aggressive gank heavy TF. Simply by out numbering an opponent in lane, the base damage of tf's spells + the stun should be more than enough to A) gank lane successfully B)push/farm your lane, both of which are what are TF's main goals are. Additional AP on TF early on, only barely increases his ability to gank other lanes, since his ganks are usually based on his ability to stun, not necessarily his ability to do a lot of damage, and his ability to shove the lane is actually the same as a gp10 TF. So essentially the utility of early AP tf is ~ gp10 tf, so why not gp10? i understand your reasoning, but as you get higher, people will become more aggressive about ganking and counterganking accordingly, and the increased efficiency and affordability of dorans items (and imo qss / zhonya, i personally think dcap rush and subsequently pure damage is kind of overrated) and earlier timing on these stats will matter a lot more at these points in time. i think triple gold/10 is definitely doable and effective in certain circumstances (stalling the game for certain power peaks etc), but that you would want some greater pre-planning before getting it than just "triple gold/10 = regular build in effectiveness" because i can tell you that that is not true. if anything i would consider it if i was going to get shurelyas as an ap. The earlier timing on these stats only matter in a closed environment, where you're fighting on equal grounds, 2v2, 1v1, 3v3. But with TF, you never fight on equal ground. You always want to be fighting 2v1, 3v1,3v2, etc etc. Especially in the earlier timings you mention. Not necessarily. Dragon fights, counter ganks, invades, counter invades, and clean up fights often consist of same sized groups. If your jungler goes in to their red, finds their jungler, their mid goes in, and you follow, it is now a 2v2 and in that case, you can't rely on "gold card and superior numbers" to win you the fight. If, for instance, top gets ganked and you ult up there to save them, it's a 2v2. If your mid pushes harder than you and roams (Morg, Anivia, Annie can push as hard or harder, in my experience), then go bot, you follow and now it's 3v3. Or worse, their jungler goes down and it's 4v3. In a perfect environment where you get to dictate the flow, where you roam to, are always up in numbers, and no one ever gets caught and needs to be saved, you're right. Any other time where you're going to be expected to do damage as the mid carry, actual items will outweigh those gp10s, imo.
that's why TSM runs gp10 TF with Nocturne jungle. As far as counter ganks goes, this should never happen, especially since TF's ult gives vision, as far as objectives goes, this does end up in an unfortunate position for TF, that doesn't build AP. But the strength of TF is that he's able to get to lane faster than mid, so it's assumed you can clean up the fight 2v1, before the enemy mid has time to react.
And in terms of "push harder", i disagree, minions come every 30 sec, even if they clear the wave fast, with aoe, they can't press it any "harder", than anyone else that can aoe down a minion waves. Not to mention, Morg+anivia+annie, are super slow. TF's got a teleport.
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On July 18 2012 06:11 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:25 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:22 JackDino wrote:
Why would TF buy an amp tome after his gp10 instead of saving up for his dcap? Enjoy your gp10 when that dragon fight breaks out and the enemy mid does more damage than you. I was talking about over all gold, obviously you don't build amp tome after 3gp10, but if you're going to compare what you could get w/ set amount of gold, around 3000~, amp tome needs to be added into 3gp10 build to equivalence out the gold for 2dring+nlr. The enemy mid may do more damage than you, but then you forget what TF does exceptionally well. and that is shuts down lanes due to a gank ever 100seconds. You can't just isolate the midlane, to 1v1 matchup, especially when talking about TF. Not to mention, even if you go early AP on TF, he still does less damage than a lot of other AP's building the same AP build. (anivia, cass, karthus, etc etc etc), so not really a relevant point when talking about damage out put during a dragon fight. I definitely like the idea of using GP10 items to fill in the money "lost" while TF is ganking, which will happen often. But the difference in AP, which you pointed out is not that much, does actually make a huge difference when considering 3 things. Wave clearing - You actually can't clear a wave with Q+red card when farming without an early NLR, because the red card AOE doesn't reach the ranged minions. You'd need your Q to one-shot the range minions and then finish off the melee minions with red-card. With NLR you can do this, but without you can't. Without an NLR, You'd have to Q the creeps, Red card the melee then hit each of the ranged creeps, which is about 2+ seconds longer to clear a wave (which may not seem long but it makes a difference) Tower Pushing - Blue carding the tower is a really effective way to take a chunk out of its HP. Without the AP from NLR this is hard to do. Gank Power - The difference in dmg with Yellow + Q with an NLR is huge with just the AP from Kage's. The argument is that since it's a 3v2 or 2v1, the lack in AP should be okay since you are a man up, but a TF without much AP does so little dmg compared to TF with AP (from early NLR) that many times you will find your ganks to be disappointing. With that said, I do want to explore options to replace doran's with GP10 items, while still getting an early NLR, since I feel like the mana-regen from Dorans is really wasted on TF (thx to Blue card). A lot of times if I'm really ahead I just skip 1 dorans.
the 60 AP difference between gp10 tf vs ap tf, in terms of ganks, is like ~80 damage. pretty negligible considering you're a man up, the only time I really think of the AP being necessary is if you're ganking a lane like Malphite, or Shen, a lane that's stupid tanky, or has good escape, like nidalee. But if that's the case, you can often just focus your efforts on botlane.
As far as wave clear goes, you can do it just as effectively with the ~60-70 ap w/ GP10 + runes+masteries, as you would with the additional AP from NLR. I've never had an issue with it.
Also, why would you be tower pushing as TF, that early on? Your main play style should simply be, ganking other lanes.
It's simple as this.
Is your ulti up? No, just afk farm mid/wraiths. Yes, Go gank.
Pushing down mid tower is a dangerous prospect for TF, because he has no escapes from ganks. Generally you want to just shove your lane in 1 rotation, head to wraiths, clear that, return back to mid to shove lane again. rinse & repeat
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Gp10 tf currently getting outfarmed by ahri, and even died once. Tsm vs M5, would've even gotten a kill if he had a teeny tiny bit more AP. He's missing so many kills because he has no AP and even dying because he's chasing for too long because he has no AP.
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i respect your theorycraft and your support of regi but i dont think you have played against a very dominating AP before. whether the player or champion, there are quite a few (of both) that have a playstyle that makes the afk gank playstyle that you promote very difficult. and against such champions, the additional stats that drings etc give you give you a much large threat in lane (for assisting ganks) and for counterpushing early.
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I'd just play aggressive against a gp5 TF. I don't really see what he'd do to stop you. If he becomes forced to trade he'll be on the losing end even moreso than Tf normally would be. Obviously jungler ganks can be an issue, but warding properly and maybe counter ganks I don't see what TF can do to stop you. As long as your mid has a decent form of cc and at least some burstiness I feel like TF would be shut down (as much as you realistically can to somebody w/ a global ult).
edit: I should note that my own opinion might be slightly skewed because 9/10 if I'm midlane and find myself against a TF I simply pick Annie and faceroll my way to an easy lane win.
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On July 18 2012 06:14 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:11 Live2Win wrote:On July 18 2012 05:25 wei2coolman wrote:On July 18 2012 05:22 JackDino wrote:
Why would TF buy an amp tome after his gp10 instead of saving up for his dcap? Enjoy your gp10 when that dragon fight breaks out and the enemy mid does more damage than you. I was talking about over all gold, obviously you don't build amp tome after 3gp10, but if you're going to compare what you could get w/ set amount of gold, around 3000~, amp tome needs to be added into 3gp10 build to equivalence out the gold for 2dring+nlr. The enemy mid may do more damage than you, but then you forget what TF does exceptionally well. and that is shuts down lanes due to a gank ever 100seconds. You can't just isolate the midlane, to 1v1 matchup, especially when talking about TF. Not to mention, even if you go early AP on TF, he still does less damage than a lot of other AP's building the same AP build. (anivia, cass, karthus, etc etc etc), so not really a relevant point when talking about damage out put during a dragon fight. I definitely like the idea of using GP10 items to fill in the money "lost" while TF is ganking, which will happen often. But the difference in AP, which you pointed out is not that much, does actually make a huge difference when considering 3 things. Wave clearing - You actually can't clear a wave with Q+red card when farming without an early NLR, because the red card AOE doesn't reach the ranged minions. You'd need your Q to one-shot the range minions and then finish off the melee minions with red-card. With NLR you can do this, but without you can't. Without an NLR, You'd have to Q the creeps, Red card the melee then hit each of the ranged creeps, which is about 2+ seconds longer to clear a wave (which may not seem long but it makes a difference) Tower Pushing - Blue carding the tower is a really effective way to take a chunk out of its HP. Without the AP from NLR this is hard to do. Gank Power - The difference in dmg with Yellow + Q with an NLR is huge with just the AP from Kage's. The argument is that since it's a 3v2 or 2v1, the lack in AP should be okay since you are a man up, but a TF without much AP does so little dmg compared to TF with AP (from early NLR) that many times you will find your ganks to be disappointing. With that said, I do want to explore options to replace doran's with GP10 items, while still getting an early NLR, since I feel like the mana-regen from Dorans is really wasted on TF (thx to Blue card). A lot of times if I'm really ahead I just skip 1 dorans. the 60 AP difference between gp10 tf vs ap tf, in terms of ganks, is like ~80 damage. pretty negligible considering you're a man up, the only time I really think of the AP being necessary is if you're ganking a lane like Malphite, or Shen, a lane that's stupid tanky, or has good escape, like nidalee. But if that's the case, you can often just focus your efforts on botlane. As far as wave clear goes, you can do it just as effectively with the ~60-70 ap w/ GP10 + runes+masteries, as you would with the additional AP from NLR. I've never had an issue with it. Also, why would you be tower pushing as TF, that early on? Your main play style should simply be, ganking other lanes. It's simple as this. Is your ulti up? No, just afk farm mid/wraiths. Yes, Go gank. Pushing down mid tower is a dangerous prospect for TF, because he has no escapes from ganks. Generally you want to just shove your lane in 1 rotation, head to wraiths, clear that, return back to mid to shove lane again. rinse & repeat
But there's going to be times that you have opportunities to whack the mid tower a few times, and taking it down means you have much more freedom to roam and more map control for you and your jungler. It becomes safer to poke your head into the enemy jungle, there are more escape routes available from when you gank/invade from weird locations, and their AP mid can't safely extend to river anymore to push YOUR tower as quickly or safely while you are roaming (or waiting in the weeds).
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By the way, if you root somebody during a teleportation (Shen, TF, anybody with the TP summoner), do they still move or are they stopped?
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On July 18 2012 06:39 Alaric wrote:
By the way, if you root somebody during a teleportation (Shen, TF, anybody with the TP summoner), do they still move or are they stopped?
They stop.
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On July 18 2012 06:39 Alaric wrote:
By the way, if you root somebody during a teleportation (Shen, TF, anybody with the TP summoner), do they still move or are they stopped?
they're stopped and the spell is wasted it hink?
i know it works that way with stuns
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The real kink I find in that logic is that doing the dring(s) -> rabadon on TF allows you to clear a wave in literally one second which gives you a lot of lane control against the opponent mid player and consequently allows you to start walking up or down to the other lanes much earlier while also making the movements of the opposing mid player a bit more torturous. There are very few champions that can clear minion waves as fast as a TF with rabadon. On top of this, you have so much more presence in teamfights with rabadon. The whole logic of gank opportunity with lich bane or gp5 doesn't really make much sense to me at all when you can just simply clear the wave in one second, walk down earlier and ult, then do a lot more damage in the ensuing fight.
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EPT
