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their skills are similiar in function but not application. and when you play them besides spamming q's they dont really play that much alike. their main functions are completely opposite (hecs move speed and skarners perma slow). a lot of champs have similiar functions on their kits but that doesnt mean they play the same in an actual game.
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On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes.
I don't play Ziggs so can't say much about him.
While I can kinda understand why you might get Lich on Lux, I think it's ultimately a bit of a waste. Lux's thing is that she can blow shit up from super long range. All her spells have effective ranges of 1k+. Why would you get an item that requires her to go into auto range when she performs most optimally from long range? Her passive+Lich makes sense for laning, but outside of laning it's kinda pointless. Not to mention that you're not going to be able to get Lich during the laning phase without gimping your damage later.
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I have now had fucking dodges for 25 minutes. I just wanted to play 1 more game before I went to sleep. This is killing me
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I see all this talk of support item hecarim. What do you guys think of AD hecarim, sion style with a good amount of levels in W? I know it only last for 4 seconds, but I think hec has a lot more mobility than sion and hecarim probably heals just as much in those 4 seconds. I've seen it in game recently. The guy just played like yi, fighting 1v1 in teamfights and cleaning up when he was safe. He didn't win, but that was because our singed was fed off his mundo.
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On July 17 2012 11:19 Kenpachi wrote:Buy Heimerdinger and Evelynn for remakes
Already have Heimer, considering Eve. I don't like the sound of Heimer's remake anyways. I am having a lot of fun playing Eve on pbe as an assassin into tank/initiator. The stealth/speed steroid/ulti shield and CC lets you initiate really well and kill or peel off the enemy carry. Then again, people on PBE kind of suck at this game, so Idunno how viable it is in real games.
On July 17 2012 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes. I don't play Ziggs so can't say much about him. While I can kinda understand why you might get Lich on Lux, I think it's ultimately a bit of a waste. Lux's thing is that she can blow shit up from super long range. All her spells have effective ranges of 1k+. Why would you get an item that requires her to go into auto range when she performs most optimally from long range? Her passive+Lich makes sense for laning, but outside of laning it's kinda pointless. Not to mention that you're not going to be able to get Lich during the laning phase without gimping your damage later.
Lich Bane, or as I like to call it, Rich Bane, is kind of a luxury item on most characters. Sure if you get about a bajillion AP it adds an extra nuke to you, but there's definitely 5 other items you'll spend most of the game building that are more efficient.
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On July 17 2012 13:15 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 11:19 Kenpachi wrote:On July 17 2012 10:41 ticklishmusic wrote:alright, im sitting at 5k ip right now. do i buy a 3150 and a 1350, 3 1350's, a 4800, or tough it out till death pony? @vaporized: is this the guide you've been using? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=23828 Buy Heimerdinger and Evelynn for remakes Already have Heimer, considering Eve. I don't like the sound of Heimer's remake anyways. I am having a lot of fun playing Eve on pbe as an assassin into tank/initiator. The stealth/speed steroid/ulti shield and CC lets you initiate really well and kill or peel off the enemy carry. Then again, people on PBE kind of suck at this game, so Idunno how viable it is in real games. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes. I don't play Ziggs so can't say much about him. While I can kinda understand why you might get Lich on Lux, I think it's ultimately a bit of a waste. Lux's thing is that she can blow shit up from super long range. All her spells have effective ranges of 1k+. Why would you get an item that requires her to go into auto range when she performs most optimally from long range? Her passive+Lich makes sense for laning, but outside of laning it's kinda pointless. Not to mention that you're not going to be able to get Lich during the laning phase without gimping your damage later. Lich Bane, or as I like to call it, Rich Bane, is kind of a luxury item on most characters. Sure if you get about a bajillion AP it adds an extra nuke to you, but there's definitely 5 other items you'll spend most of the game building that are more efficient.
I like getting it on TF or Fizz pretty early, sometimes before DC sometimes not.
Usually don't get it on any other heroes though
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On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:25 Vaporized wrote:On July 17 2012 12:11 Parnage wrote:
Hecarim falls into the Skarner category for me, he's one of those champions that look really fun to play as a jungle but when you do, you just don't enjoy it. Well I don't at least. He's not terrible and honestly I should play him because he is really good but I just don't enjoy him. Just like Skarner.
On the bright side, he looks neat. i agree actually that hec is not the most fun champ to play. but i enjoy skarner (he is my most played), and i think skarner is better in damn near any situation. the ults are very different. hec you are jumping into the enemy team and skarner u are pulling someone away from their team. i also dont agree that hec and skarner play similiarily (you didnt say that but others have). hec's whole thing is he goes faster then anyone else which leaves him open to being kited. skarner's main idea behind playing him is perma slowing. their skills might be sort of the same (i dont think so there either, besides the aoe q) but in actual play they are different imo. Their q's are similar, they both have a very strong self movespeed buff, and they both have a mediocre self healing spell. Their kits are amazingly similar until you get to the ult.
Building nothing but tank items the maximum heal on Skarner's E is 180. Building nothing but tank items the maximum healing on Hecarim's W is 30% of all damage you and your team does around you, easily hundreds or even thousands of healing, on an 8 second cooldown.
Even in bad cases, Hecarim's W is a crapton of healing. I'm not sure where you're coming from on this one.
On July 17 2012 13:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
I see all this talk of support item hecarim. What do you guys think of AD hecarim, sion style with a good amount of levels in W? I know it only last for 4 seconds, but I think hec has a lot more mobility than sion and hecarim probably heals just as much in those 4 seconds. I've seen it in game recently. The guy just played like yi, fighting 1v1 in teamfights and cleaning up when he was safe. He didn't win, but that was because our singed was fed off his mundo.
That style of AD Hecarim is fun but uncompetitive for the same reasons Yi or AD Sion are fun but uncompetitive. Ultimately a well timed CC or burst kills you before you can do anything, or you're behind so there's no waiting for a safe entry into a team fight. AD Bruiser Hecarim is workable, but it's very dependent on your team having another tanky champion and/or initiator.
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On July 17 2012 13:27 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:15 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 17 2012 11:19 Kenpachi wrote:On July 17 2012 10:41 ticklishmusic wrote:alright, im sitting at 5k ip right now. do i buy a 3150 and a 1350, 3 1350's, a 4800, or tough it out till death pony? @vaporized: is this the guide you've been using? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=23828 Buy Heimerdinger and Evelynn for remakes Already have Heimer, considering Eve. I don't like the sound of Heimer's remake anyways. I am having a lot of fun playing Eve on pbe as an assassin into tank/initiator. The stealth/speed steroid/ulti shield and CC lets you initiate really well and kill or peel off the enemy carry. Then again, people on PBE kind of suck at this game, so Idunno how viable it is in real games. On July 17 2012 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes. I don't play Ziggs so can't say much about him. While I can kinda understand why you might get Lich on Lux, I think it's ultimately a bit of a waste. Lux's thing is that she can blow shit up from super long range. All her spells have effective ranges of 1k+. Why would you get an item that requires her to go into auto range when she performs most optimally from long range? Her passive+Lich makes sense for laning, but outside of laning it's kinda pointless. Not to mention that you're not going to be able to get Lich during the laning phase without gimping your damage later. Lich Bane, or as I like to call it, Rich Bane, is kind of a luxury item on most characters. Sure if you get about a bajillion AP it adds an extra nuke to you, but there's definitely 5 other items you'll spend most of the game building that are more efficient. I like getting it on TF or Fizz pretty early, sometimes before DC sometimes not. Usually don't get it on any other heroes though
Lichbane is a pretty terrible item to get first. On most characters, you'd have ~120 AP including double dorans and that's pretty close to your autoattack damage at that point in time. If you must get something, get sheen, then AP, then Lich bane.
I got the chance to watch froggen play (and destroy the other team, ~10-1-something) TF. He went double dorans dcap, dfg, sheen and probably would've went lichbane after that if he got the chance.
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Lichbane first is ok if youre super rich as tf and want to flaunt the extra movespeed to splitpush / catch ppl better otherwise an inefficient first item even for damage
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On July 17 2012 13:59 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:27 arb wrote:On July 17 2012 13:15 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 17 2012 11:19 Kenpachi wrote:On July 17 2012 10:41 ticklishmusic wrote:alright, im sitting at 5k ip right now. do i buy a 3150 and a 1350, 3 1350's, a 4800, or tough it out till death pony? @vaporized: is this the guide you've been using? http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=23828 Buy Heimerdinger and Evelynn for remakes Already have Heimer, considering Eve. I don't like the sound of Heimer's remake anyways. I am having a lot of fun playing Eve on pbe as an assassin into tank/initiator. The stealth/speed steroid/ulti shield and CC lets you initiate really well and kill or peel off the enemy carry. Then again, people on PBE kind of suck at this game, so Idunno how viable it is in real games. On July 17 2012 12:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 12:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 17 2012 12:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 17 2012 11:45 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Is Lich Bane really okay on Brand outside of retardedly specific scenarios like this one?
Lichbane should only be taken on champs who build a lot of AP and also be tanky/mobile enough to actually use the proc. Lichbane effectively gives you an additional physical damage 1.0 AP ratio nuke. To that end, the only champs that actually fit those requirements are AP assassins. Off the top of my head, the only champs I'd ever get it on, outside of retardedly specific scenarios like the one you mentioned, are Akali, Fizz, Sion, TF, and AP Nidalee. I pretty much always go lichbane on Ziggs and Lux because of their range and part of their kit's damage being built into their autoattacks. I also sometimes get it on galio because it's another ap item that gives mr so he scales even more off of it, he's tanky enough to get in some melee hits and he kind of needs an extra high damage proc, though that's situationally based on if we need more damage and if I don't need any armor or whatever. I do this less often now that Athene's is a full item but i'll still do it sometimes. I don't play Ziggs so can't say much about him. While I can kinda understand why you might get Lich on Lux, I think it's ultimately a bit of a waste. Lux's thing is that she can blow shit up from super long range. All her spells have effective ranges of 1k+. Why would you get an item that requires her to go into auto range when she performs most optimally from long range? Her passive+Lich makes sense for laning, but outside of laning it's kinda pointless. Not to mention that you're not going to be able to get Lich during the laning phase without gimping your damage later. Lich Bane, or as I like to call it, Rich Bane, is kind of a luxury item on most characters. Sure if you get about a bajillion AP it adds an extra nuke to you, but there's definitely 5 other items you'll spend most of the game building that are more efficient. I like getting it on TF or Fizz pretty early, sometimes before DC sometimes not. Usually don't get it on any other heroes though Lichbane is a pretty terrible item to get first. On most characters, you'd have ~120 AP including double dorans and that's pretty close to your autoattack damage at that point in time. If you must get something, get sheen, then AP, then Lich bane. I got the chance to watch froggen play (and destroy the other team, ~10-1-something) TF. He went double dorans dcap, dfg, sheen and probably would've went lichbane after that if he got the chance.
I generally rush LB on TF unless I get behind in lane. I haven't made any proper calculations or anything, but it feels really strong if you plan to play a gank-heavy game. Pretty much every ult after LB results in a kill in my experience, whereas DC gives clearing power but noticeably less gank threat.
Maybe my feeling is just wrong tho.
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Tbh if you're going to get lichbane, you're better off going something like 2 drings->sheen->blasting wand. Then from there decide whether you want to get dcap or finish lich. In most cases finishing dcap before finishing lich will give you a smoother and better item progression in terms of damage.
Lich is at most the 2nd big item you should be completing if at all.
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LB first on TF can be good because the movespeed really helps your ganks but DC brings much more damage.
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United States47024 Posts
Lichbane's proc doesn't even break even with Sheen until you have about 80 non-Lichbane AP. You need at least an NLR for it to even be worth considering, and by the time you have NLR, it would cost less to finish Deathcap than to finish Lichbane from Sheen.
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On July 17 2012 15:03 TheYango wrote:
Lichbane's proc doesn't even break even with Sheen until you have about 80 non-Lichbane AP. You need at least an NLR for it to even be worth considering, and by the time you have NLR, it would cost less to finish Deathcap than to finish Lichbane from Sheen.
Hah? Lichbane has 80 AP on it. That's equivalent to a Sheen when you have 80 base AD. Add some AP from runes, masteries, a DRing etc. and you get over 100 damage on your Lichbane proc. That's more than most champs will ever have in base AD.
Whether it's worth the cost is a different question, but the Lichbane proc alone easily beats the Sheen proc.
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On July 17 2012 15:31 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 15:03 TheYango wrote:
Lichbane's proc doesn't even break even with Sheen until you have about 80 non-Lichbane AP. You need at least an NLR for it to even be worth considering, and by the time you have NLR, it would cost less to finish Deathcap than to finish Lichbane from Sheen. Hah? Lichbane has 80 AP on it. That's equivalent to a Sheen when you have 80 base AD. Add some AP from runes, masteries, a DRing etc. and you get over 100 damage on your Lichbane proc. That's more than most champs will ever have in base AD. Whether it's worth the cost is a different question, but the Lichbane proc alone easily beats the Sheen proc.
Except you're spending 2210g just to get to that point around the same time you'll have 80 base AD. TheYango isn't saying you need a NLR's worth of AP to make it worth it, he's saying you need at least Lich Bane + NLR + Rune/Doran's AP to make it worth it. 100 damage on a Lich Bane proc isn't special when you get 80 from Sheen at level 8-10.
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9871 Posts
The math isn't super hard, you just look at how much sheen proc damage you're getting and how much gold you're spending over base stats on it, assume sheen is about the right cost efficiency, see how much gold you are spending over stats on lichbane and how much damage you are getting and compare the ratios on gold over base stats vs damage on sheen and lichbane, then eyeball the movespeed bonus. If you do it it comes out to... about 80 ap from another source to get a superior ratio on lichbane. I doubt yango et al used that methodology but that's what I've done and I arrived at the same number they did
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On July 17 2012 15:51 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 15:31 spinesheath wrote:On July 17 2012 15:03 TheYango wrote:
Lichbane's proc doesn't even break even with Sheen until you have about 80 non-Lichbane AP. You need at least an NLR for it to even be worth considering, and by the time you have NLR, it would cost less to finish Deathcap than to finish Lichbane from Sheen. Hah? Lichbane has 80 AP on it. That's equivalent to a Sheen when you have 80 base AD. Add some AP from runes, masteries, a DRing etc. and you get over 100 damage on your Lichbane proc. That's more than most champs will ever have in base AD. Whether it's worth the cost is a different question, but the Lichbane proc alone easily beats the Sheen proc. Except you're spending 2210g just to get to that point around the same time you'll have 80 base AD. TheYango isn't saying you need a NLR's worth of AP to make it worth it, he's saying you need at least Lich Bane + NLR + Rune/Doran's AP to make it worth it. 100 damage on a Lich Bane proc isn't special when you get 80 from Sheen at level 8-10.
Nope, he's quite specifically saying:
On July 17 2012 15:03 TheYango wrote:
Lichbane's proc doesn't even break even with Sheen until you have about 80 non-Lichbane AP.
This sentence explicitly talks about the proc. Not a word about cost efficiency.
Which is a much more complex issue anyways because Lichbane also offers movespeed, which can be pretty damn valuable.
Plus, as mentioned, you usually get a bunch of AP from runes, masteries and DRings. Not as much as 80, but I guess about 40 is easily possible.
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I give up. This post is a mess. It's original purpose was to math out lichbane vs dcap but I screwed up the numbers and just redid them in a new post.
Go to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350928¤tpage=116#2306
Much better.
+ Show Spoiler +Alright, since it's hard to argue either way with anecdotal evidence I'm doing the math and letting you guys reason the rest out.
Assuming you're level 11, have max level Q, 3 points in W, one point in E and have either double dorans lich or double dorans dcap with sorc shoes. This is assuming you're doing a gank, throwing a gold card with a sheen proc if applicable, wild cards and then another auto with E+sheen if applicable. There might be some other factors like additional autoattacks or something that lich bane might make easier but I'm ignoring that. I'm assuming you have 84 AD.
I'm assuming that you're using AP quints and AP/level glyphs.
With the dcap build, you have 281 AP
With lichbane, you have 156 AP.
dcap you do:
226.4(gold) + 442.65(wildcards) + 251.4(E proc) = ~920 damage
lichbane:
312 (2x lichbane procs) + 176 (gold) + 361.4 (wildcards) + 201.4 (E proc) = ~1051 damage
There's the numbers, make your own choices. These numbers do not take into account any resists.
I believe firmly in dcap first though.
Edit:
Bah, too tired, used sheen proc instead of lichbane proc damage and missed an autoattack. lich bane does more.
Going to have to run the numbers for sheen to see if it's better to go sheen -> needlessly large but the sheen proc actually does a huge amount of damage o__O
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Just played support poppy. Too much fun. Was with a kog vs. blitz and vayne. Wow that damage. With an early gank I got first blood then a double. Then it was absolutely out of control. I told the kog that he might not get all the kills but I'm allowing him the CS. Their lee sin comes in later to gank and I counter gank him really hard. As the support.
Went Philo, HoG, Boots, Sheen and the game was over in 22 minutes.
I was 8/0/9
The Kog was 7/2/9
Support poppy. Scarier than Leona Blitz and Ali combined
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So are the HoG and Philo nerfs coming this week? 
Really wish there was more of a trade-off to these support-friendly items. Like they'd lower the cost by a small margin, maybe 50g. The item stats will still be nerfed so the laners will still be dissuaded from buying them, but it'll help supports who need the income to justify buying them (and maybe allow them the gold to buy another nifty ward at the same time).
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EPT
