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On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote:
Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2. I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass. Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote:
I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice? If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2. Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends. There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist. Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before...
Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane.
I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
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On June 15 2012 15:30 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote:
Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2. I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass. On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote:
I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice? If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2. Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends. There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist. Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious. Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before... Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane. I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea.
I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb.
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On June 15 2012 16:06 JuneCloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 15:30 iCanada wrote:On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote:
Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2. I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass. On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote:
I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice? If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2. Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends. There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist. Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious. Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before... Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane. I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling. VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea. I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb.
No one has used 2 top instead of a jungler, however several teams (M5, CLG, TSM, MiG Blaze/frost, and I'm sure several more) have sent two top lane and one bot lane and effectively ran 2/1/1/jungle instead of 1/1/2/jungle making there be two 2v1 lanes.
You can influence whether creeps pull to your tower or their tower depending on how you interact with them. If you bunch up the opponents creeps before they meet your creeps they will be in a concave and start to focus fire your creeps as they meet the other wave. This will start to pull the creep wave toward your tower because obviously creeps with focus fire kill the creeps that dont focus fire faster.
This wave control happens in almost every high level game. Say I'm playing Riven against a nasus. I know as Riven I have a huge power advantage on Nasus early game, so I am going to auto each melee creep once so that the wave starts pushing towards the other tower, this means nasus can't fight or effectively get last hits. Also means that I'm going to hit two before he will, giving me an even bigger advantage. Nasus has two options, either he gets zoned for free and you get free last hits and the ability to buy while he is stuck in lane because he can't lose the CS/gold to the tower, or he gets pushed out of lane because he literally can't trade with you because if he does I take three minion auto attacks and he takes fifteen minion auto attacks. Also means if you push him out of lane/kill him it is much easier for you to hard push the lane and have the enemy laner lose Gold/Experience to his tower.
Now either way I as Riven have a power curve advantage as well as level/item, means I can tank the wave before it hits mine and have it pull towards my tower because of the focus fire. This allows me to freeze the lane near my tower and keep Nasus zoned indefinitely. This is why high level games are so snowbally, because once one champ grabs an advantage they can farm and the other champion can't. Not only that, Nasus is forced to be over extended where he is more gankable than you, and you have far more kill potential on him.
Now, obviously, this scenario is without any jungler intervention and is a rather one sided lane anyway but it still applies for any lane, 2v1, 1v1, top, bot, mid... you get the point.
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On June 15 2012 16:21 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 16:06 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 15:30 iCanada wrote:On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote:
Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2. I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass. On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote:
I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice? If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2. Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends. There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist. Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious. Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before... Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane. I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling. VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea. I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb. No one has used 2 top instead of a jungler, however several teams (M5, CLG, TSM, MiG Blaze/frost, and I'm sure several more) have sent two top lane and one bot lane and effectively ran 2/1/1/jungle instead of 1/1/2/jungle making there be two 2v1 lanes. You can influence whether creeps pull to your tower or their tower depending on how you interact with them. If you bunch up the opponents creeps before they meet your creeps they will be in a concave and start to focus fire your creeps as they meet the other wave. This will start to pull the creep wave toward your tower because obviously creeps with focus fire kill the creeps that dont focus fire faster. This wave control happens in almost every high level game. Say I'm playing Riven against a nasus. I know as Riven I have a huge power advantage on Nasus early game, so I am going to auto each melee creep once so that the wave starts pushing towards the other tower, this means nasus can't fight or effectively get last hits. Also means that I'm going to hit two before he will, giving me an even bigger advantage. Nasus has two options, either he gets zoned for free and you get free last hits and the ability to buy while he is stuck in lane because he can't lose the CS/gold to the tower, or he gets pushed out of lane because he literally can't trade with you because if he does I take three minion auto attacks and he takes fifteen minion auto attacks. Also means if you push him out of lane/kill him it is much easier for you to hard push the lane and have the enemy laner lose Gold/Experience to his tower. Now either way I as Riven have a power curve advantage as well as level/item, means I can tank the wave before it hits mine and have it pull towards my tower because of the focus fire. This allows me to freeze the lane near my tower and keep Nasus zoned indefinitely. This is why high level games are so snowbally, because once one champ grabs an advantage they can farm and the other champion can't. Not only that, Nasus is forced to be over extended where he is more gankable than you, and you have far more kill potential on him. Now, obviously, this scenario is without any jungler intervention and is a rather one sided lane anyway but it still applies for any lane, 2v1, 1v1, top, bot, mid... you get the point.
Most TL users probably understand the basic idea and mechanics of lane pushing just from watching streams. A 1v2 without the enemy having a jungler is a bit different due to the fact that you can't lane switch and go to a 1v1 lane. Pro teams coordinate lane switches all the time in matches. In some of the games the lane starts out 1v1 top and a team decides to coordinate a recall 5/10 minutes into the game and send the ad/support top as they return to lane. Sometimes they send ad/support top as soon as the game begins. But in these situations the other team always has the option to counter and match the lane switch. We see this in many games. I don't want to get into a whole discussion on the obvious things like the fact they have to push out the lane before they recall to keep their turret alive, but they can call the jungler to hold the 1v2 lane while the 2v1 lane pushes and recalls. I don't understand your need to dedicate an entire post to insulting someone when we were talking about a situation in which the enemy doesn't have a jungler. As you said yourself, there hasn't been a pro game where a team didn't run a jungler and this is what we were talking about. I still think it would be interesting to see a strategy that involved sending two people top to ward off a player from getting any exp at all. I was just admitting that I have never seen this strategy as most games without a jungler are played at low levels, and this would be a rather in depth strategy for a low level game.
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On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote:
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
And that's just one example of why you shouldn't be giving advice. You're apparently not capable of comprehending the implied consequences of your advice. Lane controlling consists of simple techniques that, to a certain extent, are used in any lane, regardless of wether it's 1v1, 1v2, or 2v2. It's not rocket science, yet you consider it ''craziness you've never heard of''.
Let me explain to you like you're five why I decided to treat you like you had no clue about this game, and why you should not be giving advice. Maybe that will finally shut you up, even though I doubt it.
You started this whole thing by saying that generally, if you're playing an AD based champ and have to lane 1v2, it is a good idea to get Wriggle's, because it helps you getting last hits under your turret and it is the cheapest form of sustain in the game. Your next proposal was to buy potions up to level 8, a completely arbitrary number. You also said no one ever bought Wriggle's because of the armor; that no one could last hit perfetly fine without it. You said a lot more random shit not making sense later on, but I already stopped taking you seriously there, so I'll just dismantle these few statements of yours.
When coming into a game, your build shouldn't be set in stone, but rather a modification of a core build you have in mind. There is things you want to accomplish with your build - lane sustain, lane aggression, early-, mid-, or lategame power, maybe a certain item to counter a certain champion. Some people like to get Banshee's/Hexdrinker against Karthus, for example, others prefer carrying a red pot around against him. There is no laning champion in this game who NEEDS Wriggle's as an item regardless of the scenario, and there's a couple of situations where it's flat out BAD to get Wriggle's.
Every item has it's price, and you pay for all it's stats, wether you need them or not. There's insanely cost-efficient items like Guinsoo's Rageblade, and there's less cost efficient items like Madred's Razor. here's a spreadsheet if you want to read up on that
All I was saying to you is that if you are laning against champions who deal a lot of magical damage, it is a bad idea to get Wriggle's because it is NOT COST EFFICIENT. You spend gold on stats you don't need, and so much of that. Let me tell you why Wriggle's is good. It's good because for 1600 gold, you get a certain amount of armor, AD, lifesteal, and a ward, that, if used on cooldown, has a value of about 3-4g/10s. Against a heavy magical lane (not that uncommon if they're playing double top to begin with), you will NOT utilize the armor, you will NOT utilize the ward effectively because you will be pushed to your tower the whole time, and if they want to 3v1 dive you, there's nothing you can do either way. You are basically paying for stats you do not need, and that is bad, especially in the low level games the OP is probably stuck in, because they're bad at farming. Either way, Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
Your argument to get Wriggle's was to last hit more easily under tower. Bullshit. To kill creeps under the turret, you have to get around 75 AD, and then do the very simple technique of hitting melee minions after the tower attacked them twice, hitting ranged minions once before the turret hits them and then again for the last hit. You said this isn't applicable because the enemy champions would harass you constantly. Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
Let me get this straight: your argument was
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote:
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor.
You explicitly said last hit. Every champ can last hit perfectly fine without Razor/Wriggle's. Perfectly fine doesn't mean to get 100% of the CS, by the way, it never did. So let me ask you: what exact benefits does Wriggle's give you for JUST LAST HITTING?
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income? Basically, you were proposing to rely on luck rather than personal skill, something I'm sure works better for you, but doesn't necessarily have to apply to the OP, a person who made the impression he was willing to learn.
The next thing you got completely wrong was the statement that Wriggle's is the cheapest and most effective form of life steal. The most effective one obviously being Bloodthirster, I'll talk about the statement it's the cheapest. Wriggle's costs 1600 gold and offers 12% life steal. Executioner's calling costs 1350 gold and offers 18% life steal. 2 Doran's Blades and a Vamp Scepter, the item combination I proposed for laning against double AP, cost 1400 gold and offer 16% life steal. You make use of 100% of the stats you get for 1400 gold. Throw in a Null Magic Mantle for Merc Treads and you have an insanely costefficient combination of stats that work really well defensively. You get 3 AD less than Wriggle's which doesn't matter for lasthitting purposes. When buying a Wriggle's, you pay 200 gold more for armor you don't need, the ward you won't need until much later in the game, less life steal and 3 AD more. Your argument that my combination takes up more slots is largely irrelevant because let's face it: how fast do you think will low level players farm their THIRD big item, the first one that would need space the Doran's or the Vamp Scepter occupy? And even if he got it right after the laning phase ended: chances are he can use the Vamp scepter for a BT, and even if that's not the case, it's still cheaper to just sell one of those 3 items rather than to get Wriggle's.
Your last statement was to get pots up until level 8, which is a number you simply pulled out of your ass. There will be games he will be level 8 before the enemies hit 6, there will be games where he hits 8 when they're already 9. It's shitty advice because it doesn't factor in the many, many variables that make this game so exciting and different every time he plays it. Good advice would have been: get pots until you don't need them any more.
Anyway, I am done with you. You are a retard who got offended, many people much better (come on dude, Link is fucking 2500+, why would you argue with that?) told you you are wrong, some tried it the nice way, some didn't. I ask you to stop posting because what you are saying is wrong and the OP doesn't deserve shitty answers like yours. It's apparent you have no clue about how this game works. To end it with your own, arrogant words who made me make fun of you in the first place:
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote:
I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
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All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious
How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious
Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon.
As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious
Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income?
Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs.
Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic.
Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts.
Still sad any of this needed explaining.
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5 page argument so far from the OP ...
Does 2v1 laning even happen in pro games/ranked? Pretty sure it only happens in what I play, which is scrubby <30 normals where people don't know what jungle is
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 15 2012 19:12 JuneCloud wrote:All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon. As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious Show nested quote +Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious Show nested quote +Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income? Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs. Show nested quote +Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game. This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic. Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts. Still sad any of this needed explaining.
Holy fuck you're even worse than I thought haha. This is the last thing you are going to read in direct reply from me, as you are obviously incapable of understanding the most basic concepts of this game. Have fun and enjoy yourself.
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On June 15 2012 19:29 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
5 page argument so far from the OP ...
Does 2v1 laning even happen in pro games/ranked? Pretty sure it only happens in what I play, which is scrubby <30 normals where people don't know what jungle is
Yeah every once I'n a while a team will send thier ad and support top instead of bot so it's 2 v 1.
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On June 15 2012 19:12 JuneCloud wrote:Show nested quote +Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income? Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs. Show nested quote +Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game. This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic. Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts. Still sad any of this needed explaining.
I have to say the logic here is incredibly flawed. In a 1v2 lane, you want to keep the lane as pushed to you as possible so as to avoid being zoned and losing both experience and cs. So, you should only ever attempt to last hit, to avoid pushing as much as possible. Thus, the wriggles is not needed because you aren't aiming to proc ever, you don't need the ward because you won't be going anywhere near the river anyway, let alone be ganked by anyone, and if you aren't buying it for the armour, a vamp sceptre plus some doran's gives a lot more sustain for the same price, and okay so you may have to sell 2 doran's losing a total of about 300 gold to get a better item later, but for cost efficientness into the midgame, doran's are great, so I don't see the problem there, especially as you probably save 300 not getting wards for top during laning. Furthermore, you don't have to sell the vamp sceptre since a lot of tops do well with BTs, and you don't have to convert the armour to anything even if you start armour 5s, just save it for a later item, like GA or randuins.
You say you would get harassed out of lane 1v2 if they take tower shots to harass you every time you go to last hit, well aps are generally not that tanky so I would trade a tower hit for a bit of harass any day up for quite a few levels, at least up to level 6.
Also, why would your gold income increase dramatically if you can clear two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots? You can simply last hit after a melee minion has taken two last hits or after the caster minion has taken one (which is also easier if you stack doran's for the ad btw rather than relying on a proc which is random.).
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Something I do as a jungler is to give the top lane a buff. Weather its blue or red and let them farm easier with it. Mid lane would help will help him get buff. While bot leashes for me. Since they don't have a jungler I can start their jungle also. So I get the buff I want and so does top.
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It's not uncommon that even in low level games, a team without a jungler will try to invade. However, unless you give up kills on that invade, it's unlikely that they know how to capitalize on the invade rather than just having people show up extra late to lanes.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 15 2012 19:12 JuneCloud wrote:All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon. As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious Show nested quote +Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious Show nested quote +Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income? Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs. Show nested quote +Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game. This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic. Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts. Still sad any of this needed explaining.
The majority of your posts must be in this thread. Are you actually trying to troll, or do you legitimately not understand? Good luck to you either way.
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I agree with getting wriggles in a 1v2. It does help because sometimes the only window you get to get a minion is one where it wouldn't die without the extra attack damage from the wriggles or the proc. The ward is necessary because there is actually a high risk of getting dove as soon as the duo or the mid champ hit 6, particularly if you are getting harassed. You also want to keep your turret from hitting the minions so it doesn't push and you get zoned. With wriggles you can counter heavy pushing to an extent. However, even though some champions can in some manner 1v2, there are some duo combinations which are just not possible to go against. Particularly imo a ranged support and a melee "carry" with a gap closer, which will just zone you forever regardless of your champion.
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you should only ever attempt to last hit, to avoid pushing as much as possible. Thus, the wriggles is not needed because you aren't aiming to proc ever, you don't need the ward because you won't be going anywhere near the river anyway
You want to proc when your starved for cs. The other team will push the lane back under your turret if they are last hitting at all. If they aren't last hitting, your jungler will be so far ahead than both of them that it won't matter. Unless the wave is under your turret you probably aren't last hitting anyways. The point is that people think you can't freeze the lane just because you have a wriggles. That doesn't make any sense. The ward is actually very important. Often mid will come up and try to dive you from behind.
Assuming you can get a BT on any character is extremely flawed.
You say you would get harassed out of lane 1v2 if they take tower shots to harass you every time you go to last hit, well aps are generally not that tanky so I would trade a tower hit for a bit of harass any day up for quite a few levels, at least up to level 6.
It should be obvious to any player that most ap champs have the range to hit you if you go for minions. Thats why I said specifically tanky champs won't care if they take a tower hit if it means zoning you and they won't need to take a hit most of the time. No one said they were taking hits for every minion you go for. That would just be retarded.
Also, why would your gold income increase dramatically if you can clear two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots? You can simply last hit after a melee minion has taken two last hits or after the caster minion has taken one (which is also easier if you stack doran's for the ad btw rather than relying on a proc which is random.).
If you had actually read any of the pages before this you would have your answer. There is no point in saying it again. I will add that in those rare situations when you don't actually have any choice other than relying on the proc, it is nice to have.
On June 15 2012 23:51 sylverfyre wrote:
It's not uncommon that even in low level games, a team without a jungler will try to invade. However, unless you give up kills on that invade, it's unlikely that they know how to capitalize on the invade rather than just having people show up extra late to lanes.
This is very common. Teams without a jungler will often feel a need to invade under the belief that they can make up for not having jungler. At low levels of play this sometimes works because the jungler will not know how to adapt. Most of the time it does indeed fail due to lack of coordination.
@Shiv
I know your keyboard warrior pride has been hurt. I hope that when you finally calm down you will learn how to take all factors of a situation into consideration and begin to take your game to the next level. GLHF
Edit: Heh, Cloud beat me to most of what I wanted to say. The worst is when one of the enemies is blitz/darius/singed since they can displace you from your turret. IMO, I don't think anything is imbalanced to the point of being unbeatable in this game though.
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wriggles is not a cs'ing tool, it's for pushing. More often than not, when you're trying to freeze a lane, the wriggles proc is more problematic than helpful.
Regardless, the decision to get wriggles is almost completely irrelevant to the lane being 1v2. People keep turning this into wriggles is bad or wriggles is good, when the only item changes you should really be making in a 1v2 should be game specific, and not rely on such bogus arguments that ultimately say 'wriggles is good in almost all 1v2's' or 'wriggles is awful in almost all 1v2's'. There are no generalizations saying what specific item you should/shouldn't get in a 1v2 situation across the board, your item decisions should start with champ decision, then take into account a slightly lower gold income, the thought process should be: hmm, is wriggles reasonable on this champ? -> if no, then it ends there. If yes, then consider the usefulness of all of the stats -> if it still looks good then buy it. The point of this exercise is to reinforce the concept of thinking before purchasing, not to tell people what they should do and follow it in all 1v2 situations.
The only problem I had with this whole wriggles thing is the idea that ALL 1v2 champs should take it or ALL 1v2 champs shouldn't take it, when in reality, the lane being 1v2 has considerably smaller relevance than other factors, most notably, whether or not your champ can even use wriggles well in the first place.
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On June 16 2012 00:27 Cloud wrote:
I agree with getting wriggles in a 1v2. It does help because sometimes the only window you get to get a minion is one where it wouldn't die without the extra attack damage from the wriggles or the proc. The ward is necessary because there is actually a high risk of getting dove as soon as the duo or the mid champ hit 6, particularly if you are getting harassed. You also want to keep your turret from hitting the minions so it doesn't push and you get zoned. With wriggles you can counter heavy pushing to an extent. However, even though some champions can in some manner 1v2, there are some duo combinations which are just not possible to go against. Particularly imo a ranged support and a melee "carry" with a gap closer, which will just zone you forever regardless of your champion.
It's not necessarily wrong to get Wriggle's in a 1v2, but it's also not necessarily right. However, none of the arguments I've read in favor of Wriggle's have been very compelling.- Wriggle's is only 3 AD more than two Doran's Blades. The situations where that makes a difference should be extremely rare.
- Wriggle's proc is not a reliable way to pick up difficult to CS minions. The situations where Wriggle's proc might be the difference between a CS and a miss are rare enough, but only one in five of those situations will result in a CS due to Wriggle's.
- If you're in a position where you can use Wriggle's to keep the enemy creep wave from building to the point where it pushes into your tower, you're probably in a position where you could do the same thing without Wriggle's.
Basically, I haven't seen a compelling argument for why a 1v2 situation favors Wriggle's over other common openings. As it stands it seems to me that you'd keep building Wriggle's on the champions for whom it makes sense, and keep building other items on the champions for whom that makes sense.
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Wriggles is extremely common top and no, it's not gotten because "it's a pushing item". It's gotten because of the amazing combination of armor/damage/sustain/ward and easier cs. I don't know if you are seriously recommending people to get dblades in a lane you can't ever go aggressive. How are you going to open? With boots and 3 pots? Anyone that isn't ranged is going to get raped with that opening. The only viable opening is cloth + 5 poths which easily transitions into wriggles. As for the csing. Wriggles may not be a reliable way to pick up difficult minions but it's often the only way when you are getting zoned.
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On June 16 2012 03:44 Cloud wrote:
Wriggles is extremely common top and no, it's not gotten because "it's a pushing item". It's gotten because of the amazing combination of armor/damage/sustain/ward and easier cs. I don't know if you are seriously recommending people to get dblades in a lane you can't ever go aggressive. How are you going to open? With boots and 3 pots? Anyone that isn't ranged is going to get raped with that opening. The only viable opening is cloth + 5 poths which easily transitions into wriggles. As for the csing. Wriggles may not be a reliable way to pick up difficult minions but it's often the only way when you are getting zoned.
Read the whole thread before saying stuff no one ever proposed. Don't turn this into your Shen 2.0 bro  (Apologies if you're the wrong Cloud, but it was a joke and shouldn't be considered as something else. <3)
Of course there's a bunch of scenarios where you want to get Wriggle's 1v2 top, no one EVER said you shouldn't. If your champ fits Wriggle's and the enemies deal a lot of physical damage, get it, d'uh. You won't find anyone saying something contrary in this thread. There's just a couple of equally likely scenarios where you will NOT want to get Wriggle's, period. Like if you were laning against Veigar/Karthus. Would you seriously consider getting Wriggle's? Obviously, it would be a waste of gold, and you'd rather get a combination of DBlades/NMM/Vamp scepter.
Also, fuck Cloth 5 against these sort of lanes. Just start 13 pots and farm forever. And don't tell me it isn't viable because no one does it bla bla, Dyrus does it on Morde against LeBlanc for example.
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I thought it was Cloud9157 who had the friends who thought Shen wasn't OP, not plain Cloud. Maybe I'm confused.
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EPT
