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Well firstly. The jungler only should come up for 2 reasons, reason one is if you need severe help and they are gonna tower dive you. Reason two is if you can get a kill or both of them. This involves widdling them because if your enemies are both full health. Your jungler might not be able to make a kill happen.
Secondly, please don't run exhaust ignite, it's beyond fail. Flash not only picks up kills but it also saves your life. Flash ignite or flash exhaust. Think of it this way, when your enemy is at 40% HP and your Darius. If you have exhaust ignite and they know what they are doing, you WILL NOT kill them because they will stay far enough back to not get pulled. Now think if you had flash.... flash pull before they know what the fuck hit them and boom, dead.
Next, certain champions will do much better in 2v1's than others. Generally champions with lots of sustain. Also ranged champions help because you obviously need CS.
And last... Please don't start doing ranked right when you hit 30. You still have sooo much to learn and your not only gonna screw your team over by being a noob (no offense but players who just hit 30 are still noobs). Your only going to be able to play 1-2 roles (because you won't have filled out rune pages.) trust me. All the time I talk to my friends about how there's nothing worse than people who just hit 30 and think it's time for ranked. And it's true, there's almost nothing worse lol.
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This is a topic that is relevant for all levels of play. You could just answer for one particular person's question but from what I know about TL we like to be thorough here. If you leave an informative post someone who is looking for this topic later on could consider it etc.
I think morde and alistar are mediocre 1v2s because morde's shield is a nonfactor if he is using it to pick up lasthits from afar, and his role as an ult bot is extremely hit or miss if you have low farm
Alistar has great gank assisting ability and scaling with minimal farm, but cab only ever expect to farm at tower - which would make him a less effective 1v2 than those with ranged clearing from the safety of their tower for picking up small lasthits. Sounds alright, actually - just that getting to level 2 would take a loooong time
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On June 14 2012 04:13 Berailfor wrote:
Secondly, please don't run exhaust ignite, it's beyond fail. Flash not only picks up kills but it also saves your life. Flash ignite or flash exhaust. Think of it this way, when your enemy is at 40% HP and your Darius. If you have exhaust ignite and they know what they are doing, you WILL NOT kill them because they will stay far enough back to not get pulled. Now think if you had flash.... flash pull before they know what the fuck hit them and boom, dead.
I never said im running exhaust/ignite. I'm saying I'm playing against a singed with flash/ignite and a Darius with flash/exhaust, so if you ever poke out of your tower, you get pulled, thrown with an exhaust and an ignite, so I'm forced to sit under the tower until someone starts to roam.
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I had this problem a lot when I was not level 30 yet, but then I found Dr. Mundo! Last hit creeps all day with Q, push back waves with W and E, heal to full with R / passive. I remember playing a 2 v Mundo lane and not going back to shop until I had 6K gold!!
Mundo goes where he pleases!
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Morgana is boss 1v2, just need a second of inatention and can pick lots of cs with her W, clears minions at tower np, is scary to dive and assists gank super well. Besides you have black shield who alows you to take minimum punishement when you go for a W.
Just remember to avoid full hp minions with your W if you can do it, you want the lane to push towards you, if your pool kills the minion, no matter how far you are you still get the exp and gold so the only thing you need to do is wait for some minions to be low health go for a w and run to your tower imediatly.
at level 6 you can get easy kills with a gank
first levels in a 1v2 are the same for everyone, don't go for last hits.. the pain you will get for them is not worth it, be pacient, try to get into experience range as the creeps die. nce the lane starts pushing towards you it's only a matter of controling the push and avoid harass.
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On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
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Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are.
Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
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controlling the wave is absolutely everything for a 1v2. if your opponents harass standing right next to the creep line like n00bs, it can be smart to intentionally take some hits just so the lane will quickly shove to your tower.
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On June 14 2012 07:57 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
. Hey there, I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing. I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item. I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''. I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts: - If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario. - No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice. - At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP. - The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned. Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up.
Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
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On June 14 2012 08:49 JuneCloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 07:57 Shiv. wrote:On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
. Hey there, I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing. I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item. I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''. I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts: - If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario. - No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice. - At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP. - The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned. Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter. You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong.
If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP.
If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless.
If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway.
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A lot of the time if you have a strong top laner and a strong jungler you can just kill them immediately, 2 top tends to push the lane and your jungler will be a level 2 with a buff to boot. It's not as strong as your usual 2v1 level 2 jungler gank obviously so you need to consider your champs and summoners vs theirs.
How you have to play a 1v2 is hugely composition dependent. Some champs have the sustain, range and escapes to try and farm it. Some champs benefit a lot from being a level above their opponents and have skills that work almost as well on 2 champs as 1 - rumble, jax, riven are examples where if you hit 6 and your opponents are both level 5, a well timed jungler gank is often a double kill that lets you snowball hard and will make your opponents regret having 2 underfed top laners. Do your best to know when you'll have a level advantage that matters, and make damned sure your jungler ganks then. Some champs are honestly just pretty bad in this situation (Teemo for example - no real ult, short range, no sustain) and have to live with being zoned - best to get your jungle to pressure the other lanes and play a more support-like role. Finally, there are some enemy lanes that will punish you hard for trying to get even near the lane - something like Darius Kayle is a nightmare obviously. Again, play as though you are a zero cs support who occasionally might get some farm under the turret and get your team to swing things elsewhere.
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careful not to pick darius, lol. He has NO sustain at all, and his e is too short to catch someone if they are ranged and decent at kiting. You can often survive long enough to dunk them eventually, but its just not fun to play :/
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In terms of who is the best 1v2 laner, I can't go past Galio. Clears waves quickly from range. Like
Morgana he is also very hard to dive. I also like karthus, farm from distance and hard to dive post 6.
I don't like Cho because he is melee and can't clear waves with Q+W for a while. He has excellent sustain and isn't the worst 1v2 but ideally he probably shouldn't do it.
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Yorick is amazing in this lane. E is great for shrugging off harass and getting in a few last hits. If your jungler comes with red and/or good inbuilt CC when you hit level 6 you can probably kill at least one of them, and from then on you can actually win your lane if you did well before then.
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On June 14 2012 08:49 JuneCloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 07:57 Shiv. wrote:On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
. Hey there, I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing. I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item. I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''. I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts: - If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario. - No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice. - At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP. - The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned. Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter. You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles
Ignoring the armour on wriggles is like ignoring the magic resist on banshees veil. Sure, buying a banshees to block spells is cool, but if they had a team of ALL AD, something else might be a better choice. Its the similar with wriggles. The sustain is good, but thats not the only reason you buy it.
There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor
There are obviously not 100 options for armour available, exaggerating a bad point doesnt make it a good one. Again, wriggles is about an ideal combination of stats for a certain situation. Its the same with any item, you want the stats in correct combinations. Nashor's tooth is a very cost efficient item, its just very few want that combination of stats. Wriggles on the other hand has a strong combination of stats for a large number of situations. That doesnt make it something you should always take.
One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles
Not sure what your trying to say here, but if i had to guess your saying that udyr is inherently better at dealing the killing blow to a minion under the tower because he has sustain. Which is not true.
if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane
So, you want to play AD karma. Your laning against 2 AP carries, that makes wriggles a good choice? You cannot have a generic item choice in all situations, because for any one choice, there is a counter situation that you could choose where the decision of choosing a wriggles is completely wrong. Those posting in that thread are trying to impart some of this decision making ability to the OP, not just attempting to give a cure-all solution (which doesnt exist) You talk about helping the OP, and state that others havent understood the OP, and yet I feel that you havent understood his intention. He comes here with the intention to learn (imo) and its the decision making process behind deciding on which champions and which items to choose that is vastly more important than a statement like "wriggles is good, take it in all 1v2 lanes" (I'm paraphrasing but thats essentially what you propose)
a generalized strategy
isn't a good strategy because so many situations call for the ability to adapt. As stated above, the OP is about learning this process, not trying to generalise every situation into one strategy
He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2 ... your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him
This is more about practice. The wriggles proc wont help you last hit under the tower if your being zoned so hard that you cannot attack the minions at all. Practice in a 1v2 lane will improve your last hitting ability, in the same way that practicing last hitting in a 1v1 scenario will improve that. You can be zoned in a 1v1 lane just as effectively if you dont know the matchup, choose the wrong items, or arent as mechanically strong as the other player. If you practice a 1v2 lane, your matchups will improve. Choosing wriggles wont instantly make your CS acceptable if you are getting so badly zoned that you cant afford to be standing under your tower attacking minions.
Shiv spent a long time on his post in an attempt to explain his reasoning behind decisions, and yet you've just restated the same logic, which most have felt incorrect, again. Hopefully this gives you an idea of why I feel that your also wrong on some of your points.
To bring it back to the OP, a 1v2 matchup is even more dynamic in terms of decision making than a 1v1 lane, because of the fact that your out numbered, but they also bring more skills and more damage types to the table. The hardest lanes will always be those that bring mixed damage and strong cc, as it is harder to itemise and play against.
When selecting a hero, try to choose someone with a fairly smooth power curve. You dont want to choose a champion that trades a really weak early/mid game for a strong late game in a lane where your already going to be having trouble (think nasus, jax both of whom will do fantastically later on, but you may never get there!) Champions with a strong early game arent necessarily good picks either, because you dont want to fight them early on in most cases (think pre 6) because you'll probably lose, and those with a strong early game laning presence (see: caitlyn) arent the best choices for late game.
As suggested before in this thread, aim for well rounded champions, focusing more on the defensive, and late game scaling, but not at the cost of your early laning. The most important thing in a 1v2 lane is to simply hold your tower. The longer you hold the tower, the longer they will be stuck in the land out numbering you, whilst your jungler makes work elsewhere. If they kill you once or twice and take that tower pretty early, chances are they will be of a similar level to you, with the tower down, and free to roam around the map and wreck havoc on your team. Hold the tower for as long as possible, build and play defensively. As you get better at playing the lane, and understanding how different combinations of champions playing against you interact, you'll be more comfortable with scoring CS under your tower, taking fights against the enemy and harassing them back. With practice, despite being in a 1v2 lane, you'll be able to bring a commanding presence to the mid and late game by virtue of level difference and the fact that you have somewhat similar CS.
Something that hasnt been discussed a lot in this thread yet is how the jungler interacts with your 1v2 lane. A lot of the time, those doing 1v2 lanes will call for ganks. Whilst this is fine, it sometimes isnt realised that ganking a 1v2 isnt particularly effective, as your creating a 2v2 fight. If your significantly behind, theres a large creep wave built up to attack you, you lose the element of surpise due to a ward spotting your jungler, or your jungler just rushes right into them with you on low health, or far enough back that they die before you can make a signficant impact in the fight. All of these things can cause a situation where the jungler or yourself dies to the 2 enemies in the lane, with no benefit to you. If your trading kills with them as well, its not in your favour like it would be with a 2v1 gank. Sometimes, its just better to send your jungler elsewhere, to abuse the fact that they dont have a jungler to support their other lanes. Just focus on holding your lane, and know when you need your jungler to come hold it for you, or when your power curve reaches a point where a gank will be incredibly effective.
Items are something that will vary with matchup. Items with a defensive spin are usually a good choice, and things on the cheaper side can be good if your having trouble getting gold in your lane. Id look at things like wriggles, aegis, phage, and potentially hexdrinker against a heavy AP dmg lane. All of these items offer some sort of survivability but still give you somewhat of an offensive stat. Some of them are good picks as well as they have further build paths. In general, thing carefully about the types of damage your receiving from the enemy lane, how much harass/poke they have, and how much income you think you can achieve against that lane. If its going badly, aim for the mid tier cost effective items like those above.
Hopefully that gives more of an insight into the lane in general and dynamic decision making and why its important in all lane matchups.
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On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote:
If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
Most of us are good enough to get about 80% under tower through harass depending on champion. If anything madred's makes it harder because you can't control procs. Just get a bit better and you'll be able to do it, too.
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So much anger here  I feel like the best tip to give when playing blind pick before level 30 is to pick a champion that is safe. Anytime i thought great, now i am using panth and destroy top i got a double lane and couldn't do a lot. A friend of mine leveled with cho and yorick, mostly versus two, and won his lane most of the time. Don't try to pick counterchamps like teemo or panth and you'll be fine if you take the advice of the other users about how to generally behave on your lane, you should be fine.
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Oh yeah, and champs I would pick knowing I was going in 1v2:
Cho Galio Yorick Singed Sion Morgana Vlad GP Ezreal Heimer Maokai
A lot of them you have to sacrifice CS early but if they push you to tower you should get almost all of them regardless. Riot has made it quite hard to 1v2, though, and you basically want TP every time.
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On June 14 2012 09:08 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 08:49 JuneCloud wrote:On June 14 2012 07:57 Shiv. wrote:On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
. Hey there, I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing. I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item. I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''. I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts: - If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario. - No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice. - At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP. - The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned. Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter. You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character. I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong. If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP. If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless. If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway.
No bro, you are wrong. Wriggles is good even against non physical dmg top laners.
The two alternatives you mention to wriggles all suffer from the same problem in the fact that you have to sell them at some point in the game which wastes gold. As a top laner being zoned out of cs I would think that gold efficiency would be a priority. The reason that wriggles is good even against non AP top laners is because all top laners have autoattack harass. It may not be much dmg but it's still some. You're also ignoring the fact that gold for wards doesn't just come free. At 75 gold per ward, they're not cheap. After 20 minutes with a wriggles you've just saved 500 gold in wards. The best thing about wriggles though is that it is a cheap item which scales into the late game. Not many cheap items do this.
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About the original topic, laning 1v2 is hard, but there's 1 trick to it that a lot of people miss. You have to remain patient. I know it's tempting to try to step out from the safety of your tower and get a bit of cs, but if you do and die, then your situation just gets worse. Take teleport, it will really help. Biggest thing is not to get caught.
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I definitely don't agree with the vlad or singed pick in a 1v2 lane I have to say, nor sion really unless you are playing him ap top and even then it's a bit dodgy. The problem with all 3 of those champs is that they have no real ranged harass, and are really rather weak early game. While they all have some sort of wave clear, ,Sion and Singed in particular have to be within the wave basically to do it, meaning you can basically have to take harass if you want to farm (assuming the 2 ap champs have ranged poke, which they inevitably will) and that just ends up with them either able to tower dive you or you having to go back and losign your tower early.
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On June 14 2012 20:35 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:08 iCanada wrote:On June 14 2012 08:49 JuneCloud wrote:On June 14 2012 07:57 Shiv. wrote:On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote:
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
. Hey there, I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing. I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item. I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''. I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts: - If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario. - No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice. - At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP. - The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned. Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter. You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character. I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong. If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP. If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless. If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway. No bro, you are wrong. Wriggles is good even against non physical dmg top laners. The two alternatives you mention to wriggles all suffer from the same problem in the fact that you have to sell them at some point in the game which wastes gold. As a top laner being zoned out of cs I would think that gold efficiency would be a priority. The reason that wriggles is good even against non AP top laners is because all top laners have autoattack harass. It may not be much dmg but it's still some. You're also ignoring the fact that gold for wards doesn't just come free. At 75 gold per ward, they're not cheap. After 20 minutes with a wriggles you've just saved 500 gold in wards. The best thing about wriggles though is that it is a cheap item which scales into the late game. Not many cheap items do this.
If your that badly off for gold, you aren't worried about slot efficiency which is what your trying to implicate. How often do you get to 6 items when your that far behind on gold? The answer to that is not very, and if you do get that far, you definitely needed to make the right item choice earlier on to get there, amongst all the other right decisions. Also, if your continually pushed under your tower, how much warding do you think you'll be doing? Someone has already made the point in the thread that if your 1v2, seeing the third person come doesnt mean you wont die to the dive or just lose your tower. Rarely will you get out much past the range of the tower if your being pushed or controlling your creep wave well.
Also, your math on "saving 500 gold on wards" is absolutely terrible. You dont have a wriggles when you start the game... So, you cant be counting its wards, for at LEAST the first ward (And if you have a wriggles by 3 minutes... well, you multiple kills and cleared all the minions for the first 3 waves, so props to you) Assuming your having trouble getting gold, it wouldnt be unreasonable to have wriggles by 12, or even 15 minutes... Which means you may have to have brought several wards already anyway... So, by the first 20 minutes, maybe wriggles has saved you 150g... If you've gotten it at a reasonable timing. Finally, the vast majority of people wont have 100% ward up time, because its not needed. Especially seeing as I doubt your going back that frequently to buy wands, and even if you were, you wouldnt necessarily have them up the entire time. Oh, and who places a ward as soon as the game starts anyway, theres at least a minute or so before your near your lane, and your not the support warding in the jungle. Take a bit of a think about your logic before you try and use it to convince someone of your amazing point. Yes, wriggles is a good item. No, its not 500 gold in wards by 20 minutes, and it never can be in the most ideal of situations.
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EPT
