With Udyr as an example for a 2v1 lane. Go 9/21/0 or 0/21/9. You will be a tanky Udyr to survive harass by abusing turtle stance. Max Turtle>Tiger>Bear>Phnx.To get through the rough early level (harass, zoned from last hitting) when your hp pool is still relatively low. Get Armor Rune yellows and Armor Quints for +25 Armor and MR flat blues. Combined with the +6AR/MR from defense tree you start the game with +31 armor and +18 MR. If 2 AD's top, go Cloth 5. If Mixed AD/AP top, still go Cloth 5 as the pots wil still be needed to heal up all the mana harass that will be thrown at you. Ive had mixed results with starting Dorans shield starts.
TLDR: 1v2 in a lane as Udyr. Turtle>Tiger>Bear>Phnx. Get armor quints and flat mr blues. Spec heavily into the defense tree in order to survive the early game. in exp range, most importantly stay alive.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
As long as you are playing safely you should be out leveling the 2 of them and getting more gold per minute, and your jungler should be outleveling and getting more gold than them. So when they push your lane you just play safe, do a bit of harassing, have the jungler come up for ganks and you should win the lane. The whole point of jungling is to get more exp and gold per minute than dual laning top. Everybody recommending champs that are good at 1 v 2ing lanes is stupid, because you don't know if you are 1v2ing a lane until after the game starts lol. So just play whoever you are comfortable with and use wards and communicate with your team so that you can get good ganks.
Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
Sorry, you're bad.
No one buys wriggles because they need armor, its an added bonus. It is the most cost effective form of sustain in the game. If the OP could hit caster minions without taking too much damage before the caster minions reached turret range, there wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Anyways the point of this thread isn't too show off your shit elo just becuase you think its impressive. The OP asked a popular question and I gave him the popular answer, which was created by people much more qualified than you to answer the question.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
Uhm, I'd like to pitch in and say it IS possible to farm under tower perfectly fine. It's just everyone tends to miss more CK under tower than they should, but razor is definitely not a needed pickup.
If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
It depends on what level you're playing at If the 1v2 is vs a ad and support then typically their kill threat is not extremely high but their poke and harass will accumulate and you will be forced to back. Against these types those with a mixture of sustain and ranged skill to grab lasthits work (cho galio and yorick are proven in tournaments, they are ideal in competitive because they can achieve effectiveness without high gold as well). Under this theorycraft lee sin and should work as well, but his midgame efficiency is fairly dependent on his high burst from both levels and gold - should be workable but less ideal than the three mentioned above. Gp falls into this category as well if you max oranges but he stabilizes very quickly. Against kill lanes you should prioritize tankiness (to survive the burst / cc they throw at you), sustain to some extent if they have ranged cc or poke and you can get damaged at tower (you will tend to be hugging tower unless you are certain you 1. Won't die and 2. The damage that you take / summoners that will be blown are worth whatever you gain, whether that is a large creepwave or putting down a key ward) Some examples of types that work here are cho, galio, yorick... What a coincidence! There are more that work against these types in terms of being able to lasthit at tower and escape ranged or flash initiates (e.g. Irelia riven udyr) but the playstyles they have to adapt with low farm in teamfights is very suboptimal imo whereas the above-mentioned 3 have either inherent tankiness (galio w and cho ult stacks) or high baseline utility on their skills (galio cho yorick ults, cho q and w). At lower levels you can get away with more silly options, but the higher you go the better others will get at punishing 1v2
if you are expecting to go into a 1v2, and assuming the 2 don't grossly misplay (which may or may not actually applicable, I don't really know what elo range we are talking about here), then there are a few things that will give you strong 1v2 power.
A) Wave clearing is an absolute priority. Champs that cannot easily clear simply get out-pushed and lose tower 5-10 mins into the game (if not earlier), plain and simple.
B) Need to be challenging, or scary to dive.
C) Sustain is nice, but can be supplemented with lots of potions.
There are other things to consider, and it is also matchup dependent to an extent. Obviously some champ combos are going to be more effective and more deadly than others.
My personal choices: - Galio, Morde, Alistar (solo alistar is bawss, wish more ppl would do it XD), Cho, Yorick (not an exhaustive list, just what I personally am comfortable 1v2'ing with) several casters work quite well, I know gragas was pointed out earlier. I feel like cass could do decently well.
to address a few things that have been said previously: -Gold items are going to be a bad idea unless there is low aggression on both sides. The act of purchasing a gold item means you are deliberately gimping your power level for a bit to gain a gold advantage later on. While this can be a good bet in farmfest lanes, it could be very disastrous in a 1v2 lane, where there tends to be a lot of aggression, unless you are confident you can force a stalemate.
-wriggles is kind of a nonfactor in 1v2, you're going to get it on champs that like wriggles, and you're not going to get it on champs that don't. In that respect, the decision to get wriggles is pretty much independent of whether or not your lane is 1v2. @ june, armor is a serious consideration when buying wriggles. As with all items, you have to consider how much you need every stat that an item gives, you almost never buy an item with useless stats just because there's one on it you really like (nashor's tooth case in point)
-Range is an advantage, but not really a necessity, since the 2 lane will inevitably push a lot harder than the 1, so there will be opportunity to farm if you're smart about it.
On June 14 2012 03:36 Seuss wrote: Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
it is stupid to think about in this aspect. Because he is sub level 30, playing random teams. He's not intentionally 1v2 laning, he's solo laning top and the other team is putting 2 up top (because of no jungle) if he picks a champ that is good at 1v2 then he will be lacking if they don't have 2 top. So yes, it is very silly for him to think about it.
On June 14 2012 03:36 Seuss wrote: Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
it is stupid to think about in this aspect. Because he is sub level 30, playing random teams. He's not intentionally 1v2 laning, he's solo laning top and the other team is putting 2 up top (because of no jungle) if he picks a champ that is good at 1v2 then he will be lacking if they don't have 2 top. So yes, it is very silly for him to think about it.
uh, a lot of the champs that are good at 1v2 happen to also be pretty strong/safe top laners
edit: and therefore wouldn't really be gimped in a 1v1 situation
guys read the op so you can realize what level of play we are talking about here (blind pick, pre-lvl 30)... While both of you are very accurate, it doesn't apply to the OP's question and the point of this thread isn't to show off your vast knowledge of LoL.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
Sorry, you're bad.
No one buys wriggles because they need armor, its an added bonus. It is the most cost effective form of sustain in the game. If the OP could hit caster minions without taking too much damage before the caster minions reached turret range, there wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Anyways the point of this thread isn't too show off your shit elo just becuase you think its impressive. The OP asked a popular question and I gave him the popular answer, which was created by people much more qualified than you to answer the question.
..... Not sure if troll or retarded. Building wriggles against double AP is a massive waste of money. If the sustain is what you need, buy the vamp scepter and be done with it. You do NOT need the wriggles proc to last hit under tower. The proc is actually a downside to wriggles, as it can push your lane, and prevent you from lifestealing. (Wriggles proc no longer procs lifesteal)
If they aren't really capable of tower diving you early, Kennen is great for 1v2'ing.
Sit back and last hit+max Q. Either they take damage eating the Qs, or you safely farm with it. Once you get lvl revolver, you should be perfectly fine.
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
Okay I hate to be arguing with you because it takes away from the quality of this thread, so this will be my last post directed at you
According to you:
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote: You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor.
So if you want to CS, your words indicate an madreds razor is needed. What I'd like to point out here (again) is that it IS possible to farm under tower. If the lane is at a point where the 2v1 can harass you out of lane (as you indicated), then what good is a razor going to do?
Edit: Also, I know 100 percent for sure that noone gets perfect CS. Ever. In any lane. In any game. You could make a custom game with noone but you and you WILL miss last hits. So don't say:
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong.
You will always miss CS
For the bolded portion above. The OP is about learning which champs to play and what to do. If you look at the posts from other individuals, youll note they give a little more depth about which champions are good/viable, not just "Hey OP you dont know anything about this game so just get a wriggles/razor because thats all you can do"
I buy Wriggle's for the Touhou reference and the ward.
As a couple of people have already stated, Cho, Galio and Yorick are your best bets, but I'd also recommend Jarvan, since he can also clear waves kinda easily, and hard to dive. Also, I think Urgot and bruiser Graves could work.
Udyr and Yorick. Garen to an extent. I've been trying to make Renek work lately as well but the heal from his Q is just not enough, it can be doable with tower camping and a good jungler though.
On June 14 2012 03:55 JuneCloud wrote: guys read the op so you can realize what level of play we are talking about here (blind pick, pre-lvl 30)...
Level of play is no excuse to remain ill-informed. The OP is clearly concerned with learning about how/why/with whom to 1v2, and i don't see a problem in helping him develop as a player. Plus it's a good exercise for myself to figure out reasonings for why I do certain things that I do, and possibly learning other things that other people do. Why should we treat this thread as a specific question + answer rather than as a discussion?
While both of you are very accurate, it doesn't apply to the OP's question and the point of this thread isn't to show off your vast knowledge of LoL.
what? I'm not the one being patronizing to a player because he's not lvl 30 and playing blind pick....
EPT
