I'm starting this thread to inquire about how to lane 1v2. I'm still doing unranked matches to get to 30 so I can start ranked play, and often someone will jungle on my team, and not on the opposing team. I usually volunteer so no one feeds top, but Most of the time, I end up sitting under a turret for 15 mins barley getting any CS.
Sometimes I even get really troll top lanes like darius/singed running exhaust and ignite so you can't really get any CS at all. I think in theory the jungler should gank your lane a lot of they're going to be really pushed, but I find a lot of the times a gank in a 1v2 lane doesn't even force summoner spells.
Typically when I go top I play riven or cho. I find it's a little easier with cho because you can just w to get a little harass/CS, but it's still pretty bad, and the enemy team gets a good bit of chip off your tower.
Is there anything to do about 1v2 lanes? Are there certain heroes who do well in these scenarios, or are you just forced to sit under a tower for half the game?
It al depends on your skill level i can trynd 1v2 in normals easy against almost any combo, but i can 1v2 in normals with almost any champ i play. i just wair for then to do stupid moves then i kill them
Well, take a champ with good poke and good sustain, yorick for example. You have to farm under tower until about lvl 6. After that, you might be able to kill when they dive you. And usually they do. However, it's really unlikely that you can dominate that lane. No matter how good you are or what champ you pick, if they are not way worse than you, you will loose tower pretty soon.
Know your champion, wait for that soft spot you need to hit to take over, do it. For Cho, who I don't know as well, I'm guessing it would be level 6 where your ultimate deals 300 true damage and they should be underleveled. As Riven, you might begin harassing them at level 5 and go for the kill at level 6.
Personally, I'd go Lee in those sort of lanes, just because I feel he can farm up safely enough up to level 6 and then WTFRAPE those kids trying to troll you.
For picking(assuming blinds) into a 1v2 lane, champs that are good at 1v2 are GP(Max dem oranges), Yorick, Cho and possibly a few others I'm missing. Big factor is that they NEED to have good sustain along with the ability to cs somewhat from range. Usually you pick up a GP10 or two to make up for the fact that you (should) get zoned off CS incredibly hard
Goal in 1v2 lane really is just to not die, and not to fall behind in levels. Your jungler should be able to get ~3 buff camps every rotation and should be farming both jungles. A really farmed jungler along with a top lane that didn't feed with minimal CS. will usually be better than 2 people who are competing for CS, and are very underleveled.
Cho is a great hero, just sustain, and use stomp if they try to dive you. Olaf is alright; can LH with undertow and after 6 you're ungankable pretty much. Can also outplay them and kill them. Yorick = da sustain. Garen, with spin you can damage them both with very high damage potential, esp. lvl 6. Also has sustain passive. Irelia maybe? Can LH with ulti, has some sustain.
In terms of playstyle, you just need to sneak in as much CS as possible. Jungle shouldn't be too concerned with ganking top, because if he comes it'll just be a 2v2. Jungle ganks are great because it often forces a 1v2 or 2v3. Your jungler should just rape mid or bot while clearing a lot, while you focus on not dying. Remember, if you get even half of the CS you'd get normally, you would be about even compared to the enemy splitting farm.
I'm not a top player but from my personal experience it's best to hug the tower and build gp5 items like Philosophers Stone & Heart of Gold which you can later turn into shurelyas and randuins to still help the team. I also find it best to let the jungler gank the other lanes. If he ganks your lane it's 2v2, which is kinda bad since you will be behind on CS anyways while ganks on the other lanes will be 2v1 or 3v2, which is far more advantageous. The opponent will win your lane sooner or later so it's best if the jungler can guarantee a win on both other lanes.
Just make sure they can't kill your tower and die as little as possible while staying in EP range to at least keep up in levels compared to the other lanes.
As for champions, i find Olaf can do quite well if you max Q first since he can easily get CS from a distance with the mana regen from philosophers and it's slow also helps play safe while the AoE allows you to clear creep waves near the tower easily so the opponents can't dive you without risk.
Mostly tanky champions with ranged AoE should be fine in that situation. You should never get into melee range against the opponents, especially if one of them has any form of CC or in case of singed/volibear a throw, even if you have a melee ranged AoE skill. They usually won't stay close together anyways, so you will only hit one while taking damage from both.
From running double jungle, yorick and cho can happily take a 1v2 lane. Your first goal is getting experience. Don't go in for last hits early on when you will eat a lot of harass. You need to just get levels the first few minutes until you outlevel them. Having a good feeling for the experience range is important for doing so. Try to get all the experience and you will outlevel them and then you can farm and trade with them (depending on champs of course).
I find solotop 1v2 fairly easy as long as you have a decent escapabale champ. What really happens, is if your team has a potent jungler, the other two lanes gonna be destroyed pretty quickly. Your main objective is not farming but gaining exp and holding the tower alive. Around 10 min or so their mid or bot tower gonna be destroyed. Then its not gonna be 1v2 anymore since one of them will go roaming, and then you can farm really fast coz you're ahead in levels. Just be patient.
Galio is an enormous pick 1v2, I sometimes pick him bot to play with 2 junglers/roamers. Really strong against at least 1 ap top, he's still decent if two ad. Once you have your mana items (chalice, philosopher stone), you dont have to be touched once anymore, and it's so easy to nuke those minions from far away.
Riven's high attack damage (especially with her passive) makes it easier than with most other heroes to CS under tower.
All in all, you should be fine regardless. They'll have two heroes splitting XP and CS. Even if you can't hit every creep, you should still be better off than either one of them by the end of the laning phase, which is enough.
With Riven you can make a double kill when you hit 7 even if they're full hp with a gank. The thing is don't take useless hit because you wanted to last hit. Most of players can't control the lane, so you'll be able to farm at tower easily and trade avantagely at tower too.
Is Renek viable 1v2 as well or is he just too squishy if you build him for dmg? (standard Brutalizer build) He has good sustain and a (potentially double dash) escape.
On June 13 2012 21:11 Plague1503 wrote: Is Renek viable 1v2 as well or is he just too squishy if you build him for dmg? (standard Brutalizer build) He has good sustain and a (potentially double dash) escape.
His lack of ranged CS abilities will definitely hurt him in 1v2 but you should be able to at least survive due to the ability to AoE clear minions at the tower and the E to survive dives. You just can't risk farming away from the tower since all trades will turn out bad for you, even with your sustain from Q.
I'm pretty terribad, but I think Xerath might be pretty decent. His Q is a really nice AOE poke, and his E keeps (smart) opponents from diving you too hard. His passive helps against AD champs too. Still, most people don't like tower hugging as much as I do...
It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
I've had good luck when I was leveling a smurf with a solo gragas 1v2. He has innate sustain with drink and can still cs pretty well, and even get kills with a ult into a tower.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
With Udyr as an example for a 2v1 lane. Go 9/21/0 or 0/21/9. You will be a tanky Udyr to survive harass by abusing turtle stance. Max Turtle>Tiger>Bear>Phnx.To get through the rough early level (harass, zoned from last hitting) when your hp pool is still relatively low. Get Armor Rune yellows and Armor Quints for +25 Armor and MR flat blues. Combined with the +6AR/MR from defense tree you start the game with +31 armor and +18 MR. If 2 AD's top, go Cloth 5. If Mixed AD/AP top, still go Cloth 5 as the pots wil still be needed to heal up all the mana harass that will be thrown at you. Ive had mixed results with starting Dorans shield starts.
TLDR: 1v2 in a lane as Udyr. Turtle>Tiger>Bear>Phnx. Get armor quints and flat mr blues. Spec heavily into the defense tree in order to survive the early game. in exp range, most importantly stay alive.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
As long as you are playing safely you should be out leveling the 2 of them and getting more gold per minute, and your jungler should be outleveling and getting more gold than them. So when they push your lane you just play safe, do a bit of harassing, have the jungler come up for ganks and you should win the lane. The whole point of jungling is to get more exp and gold per minute than dual laning top. Everybody recommending champs that are good at 1 v 2ing lanes is stupid, because you don't know if you are 1v2ing a lane until after the game starts lol. So just play whoever you are comfortable with and use wards and communicate with your team so that you can get good ganks.
Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
Sorry, you're bad.
No one buys wriggles because they need armor, its an added bonus. It is the most cost effective form of sustain in the game. If the OP could hit caster minions without taking too much damage before the caster minions reached turret range, there wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Anyways the point of this thread isn't too show off your shit elo just becuase you think its impressive. The OP asked a popular question and I gave him the popular answer, which was created by people much more qualified than you to answer the question.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
Uhm, I'd like to pitch in and say it IS possible to farm under tower perfectly fine. It's just everyone tends to miss more CK under tower than they should, but razor is definitely not a needed pickup.
If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
It depends on what level you're playing at If the 1v2 is vs a ad and support then typically their kill threat is not extremely high but their poke and harass will accumulate and you will be forced to back. Against these types those with a mixture of sustain and ranged skill to grab lasthits work (cho galio and yorick are proven in tournaments, they are ideal in competitive because they can achieve effectiveness without high gold as well). Under this theorycraft lee sin and should work as well, but his midgame efficiency is fairly dependent on his high burst from both levels and gold - should be workable but less ideal than the three mentioned above. Gp falls into this category as well if you max oranges but he stabilizes very quickly. Against kill lanes you should prioritize tankiness (to survive the burst / cc they throw at you), sustain to some extent if they have ranged cc or poke and you can get damaged at tower (you will tend to be hugging tower unless you are certain you 1. Won't die and 2. The damage that you take / summoners that will be blown are worth whatever you gain, whether that is a large creepwave or putting down a key ward) Some examples of types that work here are cho, galio, yorick... What a coincidence! There are more that work against these types in terms of being able to lasthit at tower and escape ranged or flash initiates (e.g. Irelia riven udyr) but the playstyles they have to adapt with low farm in teamfights is very suboptimal imo whereas the above-mentioned 3 have either inherent tankiness (galio w and cho ult stacks) or high baseline utility on their skills (galio cho yorick ults, cho q and w). At lower levels you can get away with more silly options, but the higher you go the better others will get at punishing 1v2
if you are expecting to go into a 1v2, and assuming the 2 don't grossly misplay (which may or may not actually applicable, I don't really know what elo range we are talking about here), then there are a few things that will give you strong 1v2 power.
A) Wave clearing is an absolute priority. Champs that cannot easily clear simply get out-pushed and lose tower 5-10 mins into the game (if not earlier), plain and simple.
B) Need to be challenging, or scary to dive.
C) Sustain is nice, but can be supplemented with lots of potions.
There are other things to consider, and it is also matchup dependent to an extent. Obviously some champ combos are going to be more effective and more deadly than others.
My personal choices: - Galio, Morde, Alistar (solo alistar is bawss, wish more ppl would do it XD), Cho, Yorick (not an exhaustive list, just what I personally am comfortable 1v2'ing with) several casters work quite well, I know gragas was pointed out earlier. I feel like cass could do decently well.
to address a few things that have been said previously: -Gold items are going to be a bad idea unless there is low aggression on both sides. The act of purchasing a gold item means you are deliberately gimping your power level for a bit to gain a gold advantage later on. While this can be a good bet in farmfest lanes, it could be very disastrous in a 1v2 lane, where there tends to be a lot of aggression, unless you are confident you can force a stalemate.
-wriggles is kind of a nonfactor in 1v2, you're going to get it on champs that like wriggles, and you're not going to get it on champs that don't. In that respect, the decision to get wriggles is pretty much independent of whether or not your lane is 1v2. @ june, armor is a serious consideration when buying wriggles. As with all items, you have to consider how much you need every stat that an item gives, you almost never buy an item with useless stats just because there's one on it you really like (nashor's tooth case in point)
-Range is an advantage, but not really a necessity, since the 2 lane will inevitably push a lot harder than the 1, so there will be opportunity to farm if you're smart about it.
On June 14 2012 03:36 Seuss wrote: Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
it is stupid to think about in this aspect. Because he is sub level 30, playing random teams. He's not intentionally 1v2 laning, he's solo laning top and the other team is putting 2 up top (because of no jungle) if he picks a champ that is good at 1v2 then he will be lacking if they don't have 2 top. So yes, it is very silly for him to think about it.
On June 14 2012 03:36 Seuss wrote: Recommending champs that are good at 1v2 isn't stupid. There were several games at MLG where teams intentionally put their AD+Support top and another champion solo bottom. Figuring out which champs can handle a 1v2 is an important part of making that strategy work.
It's also valuable to discuss general tips/tricks for dealing with an unexpected 1v2, but it's not silly to think about an intentional 1v2 lane.
it is stupid to think about in this aspect. Because he is sub level 30, playing random teams. He's not intentionally 1v2 laning, he's solo laning top and the other team is putting 2 up top (because of no jungle) if he picks a champ that is good at 1v2 then he will be lacking if they don't have 2 top. So yes, it is very silly for him to think about it.
uh, a lot of the champs that are good at 1v2 happen to also be pretty strong/safe top laners
edit: and therefore wouldn't really be gimped in a 1v1 situation
guys read the op so you can realize what level of play we are talking about here (blind pick, pre-lvl 30)... While both of you are very accurate, it doesn't apply to the OP's question and the point of this thread isn't to show off your vast knowledge of LoL.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
This isn't good advice. You can last hit perfectly fine without Razor, hoping to last hit with the proc is more a gamble than anything. What is he supposed to do with Wriggle's if he's laning against 2 AP champions? What sort of arbitrary number is lvl 8?
You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor. What does it matter if he is laning agaisnt 2 AP champs? Has anyone ever bought a wriggles because they really needed the extra bit of armor? No, you buy it for the cheapest and most effective sustain in the game. Buying potions until lvl 8 is a well known strategy for when your losing your lane badly, same situation applies for a 1v2 lane. I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
It's not the cheapest form of sustain. It's not. A lot of people buy it for the armor. Yes, you can lasthit caster minions perfectly fine - attack them once, let the turret attack them, attack them again.
Sorry, you're bad.
No one buys wriggles because they need armor, its an added bonus. It is the most cost effective form of sustain in the game. If the OP could hit caster minions without taking too much damage before the caster minions reached turret range, there wouldn't be an issue to begin with. Anyways the point of this thread isn't too show off your shit elo just becuase you think its impressive. The OP asked a popular question and I gave him the popular answer, which was created by people much more qualified than you to answer the question.
..... Not sure if troll or retarded. Building wriggles against double AP is a massive waste of money. If the sustain is what you need, buy the vamp scepter and be done with it. You do NOT need the wriggles proc to last hit under tower. The proc is actually a downside to wriggles, as it can push your lane, and prevent you from lifestealing. (Wriggles proc no longer procs lifesteal)
If they aren't really capable of tower diving you early, Kennen is great for 1v2'ing.
Sit back and last hit+max Q. Either they take damage eating the Qs, or you safely farm with it. Once you get lvl revolver, you should be perfectly fine.
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
Okay I hate to be arguing with you because it takes away from the quality of this thread, so this will be my last post directed at you
According to you:
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote: You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor. No one can. Even with attack damage runes you can't kill a full health caster minion under a turret without extra damage/razor.
So if you want to CS, your words indicate an madreds razor is needed. What I'd like to point out here (again) is that it IS possible to farm under tower. If the lane is at a point where the 2v1 can harass you out of lane (as you indicated), then what good is a razor going to do?
Edit: Also, I know 100 percent for sure that noone gets perfect CS. Ever. In any lane. In any game. You could make a custom game with noone but you and you WILL miss last hits. So don't say:
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong.
You will always miss CS
For the bolded portion above. The OP is about learning which champs to play and what to do. If you look at the posts from other individuals, youll note they give a little more depth about which champions are good/viable, not just "Hey OP you dont know anything about this game so just get a wriggles/razor because thats all you can do"
I buy Wriggle's for the Touhou reference and the ward.
As a couple of people have already stated, Cho, Galio and Yorick are your best bets, but I'd also recommend Jarvan, since he can also clear waves kinda easily, and hard to dive. Also, I think Urgot and bruiser Graves could work.
Udyr and Yorick. Garen to an extent. I've been trying to make Renek work lately as well but the heal from his Q is just not enough, it can be doable with tower camping and a good jungler though.
On June 14 2012 03:55 JuneCloud wrote: guys read the op so you can realize what level of play we are talking about here (blind pick, pre-lvl 30)...
Level of play is no excuse to remain ill-informed. The OP is clearly concerned with learning about how/why/with whom to 1v2, and i don't see a problem in helping him develop as a player. Plus it's a good exercise for myself to figure out reasonings for why I do certain things that I do, and possibly learning other things that other people do. Why should we treat this thread as a specific question + answer rather than as a discussion?
While both of you are very accurate, it doesn't apply to the OP's question and the point of this thread isn't to show off your vast knowledge of LoL.
what? I'm not the one being patronizing to a player because he's not lvl 30 and playing blind pick....
Well firstly. The jungler only should come up for 2 reasons, reason one is if you need severe help and they are gonna tower dive you. Reason two is if you can get a kill or both of them. This involves widdling them because if your enemies are both full health. Your jungler might not be able to make a kill happen.
Secondly, please don't run exhaust ignite, it's beyond fail. Flash not only picks up kills but it also saves your life. Flash ignite or flash exhaust. Think of it this way, when your enemy is at 40% HP and your Darius. If you have exhaust ignite and they know what they are doing, you WILL NOT kill them because they will stay far enough back to not get pulled. Now think if you had flash.... flash pull before they know what the fuck hit them and boom, dead.
Next, certain champions will do much better in 2v1's than others. Generally champions with lots of sustain. Also ranged champions help because you obviously need CS.
And last... Please don't start doing ranked right when you hit 30. You still have sooo much to learn and your not only gonna screw your team over by being a noob (no offense but players who just hit 30 are still noobs). Your only going to be able to play 1-2 roles (because you won't have filled out rune pages.) trust me. All the time I talk to my friends about how there's nothing worse than people who just hit 30 and think it's time for ranked. And it's true, there's almost nothing worse lol.
This is a topic that is relevant for all levels of play. You could just answer for one particular person's question but from what I know about TL we like to be thorough here. If you leave an informative post someone who is looking for this topic later on could consider it etc. I think morde and alistar are mediocre 1v2s because morde's shield is a nonfactor if he is using it to pick up lasthits from afar, and his role as an ult bot is extremely hit or miss if you have low farm Alistar has great gank assisting ability and scaling with minimal farm, but cab only ever expect to farm at tower - which would make him a less effective 1v2 than those with ranged clearing from the safety of their tower for picking up small lasthits. Sounds alright, actually - just that getting to level 2 would take a loooong time
On June 14 2012 04:13 Berailfor wrote: Secondly, please don't run exhaust ignite, it's beyond fail. Flash not only picks up kills but it also saves your life. Flash ignite or flash exhaust. Think of it this way, when your enemy is at 40% HP and your Darius. If you have exhaust ignite and they know what they are doing, you WILL NOT kill them because they will stay far enough back to not get pulled. Now think if you had flash.... flash pull before they know what the fuck hit them and boom, dead.
I never said im running exhaust/ignite. I'm saying I'm playing against a singed with flash/ignite and a Darius with flash/exhaust, so if you ever poke out of your tower, you get pulled, thrown with an exhaust and an ignite, so I'm forced to sit under the tower until someone starts to roam.
I had this problem a lot when I was not level 30 yet, but then I found Dr. Mundo! Last hit creeps all day with Q, push back waves with W and E, heal to full with R / passive. I remember playing a 2 v Mundo lane and not going back to shop until I had 6K gold!!
Morgana is boss 1v2, just need a second of inatention and can pick lots of cs with her W, clears minions at tower np, is scary to dive and assists gank super well. Besides you have black shield who alows you to take minimum punishement when you go for a W. Just remember to avoid full hp minions with your W if you can do it, you want the lane to push towards you, if your pool kills the minion, no matter how far you are you still get the exp and gold so the only thing you need to do is wait for some minions to be low health go for a w and run to your tower imediatly. at level 6 you can get easy kills with a gank first levels in a 1v2 are the same for everyone, don't go for last hits.. the pain you will get for them is not worth it, be pacient, try to get into experience range as the creeps die. nce the lane starts pushing towards you it's only a matter of controling the push and avoid harass.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
controlling the wave is absolutely everything for a 1v2. if your opponents harass standing right next to the creep line like n00bs, it can be smart to intentionally take some hits just so the lane will quickly shove to your tower.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong.
If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP.
If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless.
If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway.
A lot of the time if you have a strong top laner and a strong jungler you can just kill them immediately, 2 top tends to push the lane and your jungler will be a level 2 with a buff to boot. It's not as strong as your usual 2v1 level 2 jungler gank obviously so you need to consider your champs and summoners vs theirs.
How you have to play a 1v2 is hugely composition dependent. Some champs have the sustain, range and escapes to try and farm it. Some champs benefit a lot from being a level above their opponents and have skills that work almost as well on 2 champs as 1 - rumble, jax, riven are examples where if you hit 6 and your opponents are both level 5, a well timed jungler gank is often a double kill that lets you snowball hard and will make your opponents regret having 2 underfed top laners. Do your best to know when you'll have a level advantage that matters, and make damned sure your jungler ganks then. Some champs are honestly just pretty bad in this situation (Teemo for example - no real ult, short range, no sustain) and have to live with being zoned - best to get your jungle to pressure the other lanes and play a more support-like role. Finally, there are some enemy lanes that will punish you hard for trying to get even near the lane - something like Darius Kayle is a nightmare obviously. Again, play as though you are a zero cs support who occasionally might get some farm under the turret and get your team to swing things elsewhere.
careful not to pick darius, lol. He has NO sustain at all, and his e is too short to catch someone if they are ranged and decent at kiting. You can often survive long enough to dunk them eventually, but its just not fun to play :/
In terms of who is the best 1v2 laner, I can't go past Galio. Clears waves quickly from range. Like Morgana he is also very hard to dive. I also like karthus, farm from distance and hard to dive post 6.
I don't like Cho because he is melee and can't clear waves with Q+W for a while. He has excellent sustain and isn't the worst 1v2 but ideally he probably shouldn't do it.
Yorick is amazing in this lane. E is great for shrugging off harass and getting in a few last hits. If your jungler comes with red and/or good inbuilt CC when you hit level 6 you can probably kill at least one of them, and from then on you can actually win your lane if you did well before then.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles
Ignoring the armour on wriggles is like ignoring the magic resist on banshees veil. Sure, buying a banshees to block spells is cool, but if they had a team of ALL AD, something else might be a better choice. Its the similar with wriggles. The sustain is good, but thats not the only reason you buy it.
There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor
There are obviously not 100 options for armour available, exaggerating a bad point doesnt make it a good one. Again, wriggles is about an ideal combination of stats for a certain situation. Its the same with any item, you want the stats in correct combinations. Nashor's tooth is a very cost efficient item, its just very few want that combination of stats. Wriggles on the other hand has a strong combination of stats for a large number of situations. That doesnt make it something you should always take.
One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles
Not sure what your trying to say here, but if i had to guess your saying that udyr is inherently better at dealing the killing blow to a minion under the tower because he has sustain. Which is not true.
if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane
So, you want to play AD karma. Your laning against 2 AP carries, that makes wriggles a good choice? You cannot have a generic item choice in all situations, because for any one choice, there is a counter situation that you could choose where the decision of choosing a wriggles is completely wrong. Those posting in that thread are trying to impart some of this decision making ability to the OP, not just attempting to give a cure-all solution (which doesnt exist) You talk about helping the OP, and state that others havent understood the OP, and yet I feel that you havent understood his intention. He comes here with the intention to learn (imo) and its the decision making process behind deciding on which champions and which items to choose that is vastly more important than a statement like "wriggles is good, take it in all 1v2 lanes" (I'm paraphrasing but thats essentially what you propose)
a generalized strategy
isn't a good strategy because so many situations call for the ability to adapt. As stated above, the OP is about learning this process, not trying to generalise every situation into one strategy
He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2 ... your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him
This is more about practice. The wriggles proc wont help you last hit under the tower if your being zoned so hard that you cannot attack the minions at all. Practice in a 1v2 lane will improve your last hitting ability, in the same way that practicing last hitting in a 1v1 scenario will improve that. You can be zoned in a 1v1 lane just as effectively if you dont know the matchup, choose the wrong items, or arent as mechanically strong as the other player. If you practice a 1v2 lane, your matchups will improve. Choosing wriggles wont instantly make your CS acceptable if you are getting so badly zoned that you cant afford to be standing under your tower attacking minions.
Shiv spent a long time on his post in an attempt to explain his reasoning behind decisions, and yet you've just restated the same logic, which most have felt incorrect, again. Hopefully this gives you an idea of why I feel that your also wrong on some of your points.
To bring it back to the OP, a 1v2 matchup is even more dynamic in terms of decision making than a 1v1 lane, because of the fact that your out numbered, but they also bring more skills and more damage types to the table. The hardest lanes will always be those that bring mixed damage and strong cc, as it is harder to itemise and play against.
When selecting a hero, try to choose someone with a fairly smooth power curve. You dont want to choose a champion that trades a really weak early/mid game for a strong late game in a lane where your already going to be having trouble (think nasus, jax both of whom will do fantastically later on, but you may never get there!) Champions with a strong early game arent necessarily good picks either, because you dont want to fight them early on in most cases (think pre 6) because you'll probably lose, and those with a strong early game laning presence (see: caitlyn) arent the best choices for late game.
As suggested before in this thread, aim for well rounded champions, focusing more on the defensive, and late game scaling, but not at the cost of your early laning. The most important thing in a 1v2 lane is to simply hold your tower. The longer you hold the tower, the longer they will be stuck in the land out numbering you, whilst your jungler makes work elsewhere. If they kill you once or twice and take that tower pretty early, chances are they will be of a similar level to you, with the tower down, and free to roam around the map and wreck havoc on your team. Hold the tower for as long as possible, build and play defensively. As you get better at playing the lane, and understanding how different combinations of champions playing against you interact, you'll be more comfortable with scoring CS under your tower, taking fights against the enemy and harassing them back. With practice, despite being in a 1v2 lane, you'll be able to bring a commanding presence to the mid and late game by virtue of level difference and the fact that you have somewhat similar CS.
Something that hasnt been discussed a lot in this thread yet is how the jungler interacts with your 1v2 lane. A lot of the time, those doing 1v2 lanes will call for ganks. Whilst this is fine, it sometimes isnt realised that ganking a 1v2 isnt particularly effective, as your creating a 2v2 fight. If your significantly behind, theres a large creep wave built up to attack you, you lose the element of surpise due to a ward spotting your jungler, or your jungler just rushes right into them with you on low health, or far enough back that they die before you can make a signficant impact in the fight. All of these things can cause a situation where the jungler or yourself dies to the 2 enemies in the lane, with no benefit to you. If your trading kills with them as well, its not in your favour like it would be with a 2v1 gank. Sometimes, its just better to send your jungler elsewhere, to abuse the fact that they dont have a jungler to support their other lanes. Just focus on holding your lane, and know when you need your jungler to come hold it for you, or when your power curve reaches a point where a gank will be incredibly effective.
Items are something that will vary with matchup. Items with a defensive spin are usually a good choice, and things on the cheaper side can be good if your having trouble getting gold in your lane. Id look at things like wriggles, aegis, phage, and potentially hexdrinker against a heavy AP dmg lane. All of these items offer some sort of survivability but still give you somewhat of an offensive stat. Some of them are good picks as well as they have further build paths. In general, thing carefully about the types of damage your receiving from the enemy lane, how much harass/poke they have, and how much income you think you can achieve against that lane. If its going badly, aim for the mid tier cost effective items like those above.
Hopefully that gives more of an insight into the lane in general and dynamic decision making and why its important in all lane matchups.
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
Most of us are good enough to get about 80% under tower through harass depending on champion. If anything madred's makes it harder because you can't control procs. Just get a bit better and you'll be able to do it, too.
So much anger here I feel like the best tip to give when playing blind pick before level 30 is to pick a champion that is safe. Anytime i thought great, now i am using panth and destroy top i got a double lane and couldn't do a lot. A friend of mine leveled with cho and yorick, mostly versus two, and won his lane most of the time. Don't try to pick counterchamps like teemo or panth and you'll be fine if you take the advice of the other users about how to generally behave on your lane, you should be fine.
Oh yeah, and champs I would pick knowing I was going in 1v2:
Cho Galio Yorick Singed Sion Morgana Vlad GP Ezreal Heimer Maokai
A lot of them you have to sacrifice CS early but if they push you to tower you should get almost all of them regardless. Riot has made it quite hard to 1v2, though, and you basically want TP every time.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong.
If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP.
If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless.
If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway.
No bro, you are wrong. Wriggles is good even against non physical dmg top laners.
The two alternatives you mention to wriggles all suffer from the same problem in the fact that you have to sell them at some point in the game which wastes gold. As a top laner being zoned out of cs I would think that gold efficiency would be a priority. The reason that wriggles is good even against non AP top laners is because all top laners have autoattack harass. It may not be much dmg but it's still some. You're also ignoring the fact that gold for wards doesn't just come free. At 75 gold per ward, they're not cheap. After 20 minutes with a wriggles you've just saved 500 gold in wards. The best thing about wriggles though is that it is a cheap item which scales into the late game. Not many cheap items do this.
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About the original topic, laning 1v2 is hard, but there's 1 trick to it that a lot of people miss. You have to remain patient. I know it's tempting to try to step out from the safety of your tower and get a bit of cs, but if you do and die, then your situation just gets worse. Take teleport, it will really help. Biggest thing is not to get caught.
I definitely don't agree with the vlad or singed pick in a 1v2 lane I have to say, nor sion really unless you are playing him ap top and even then it's a bit dodgy. The problem with all 3 of those champs is that they have no real ranged harass, and are really rather weak early game. While they all have some sort of wave clear, ,Sion and Singed in particular have to be within the wave basically to do it, meaning you can basically have to take harass if you want to farm (assuming the 2 ap champs have ranged poke, which they inevitably will) and that just ends up with them either able to tower dive you or you having to go back and losign your tower early.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do. .
Hey there,
I usually don't feel the urge to explain myself to strangers over the internet, but you were right, and for some reason, I'm sure I'll feel better after apologizing.
I generally like to think myself of a well-mannered person. When posting on these forums, I try to provide helpful advice to the best of my limited possibilites, and sometimes that means to call someone out for advice that's plain and simply wrong. If you read the first page of the thread, you'll see I was trying to help the OP by a) providing my own opinion on the matter and b) calling out the guy who said it was a good idea to get Wriggle's as an AD laning 1v2 regardless of your opponents. He proceeded to say you cannot lasthit properly without Razor/Wriggle's and that the armor isn't important for said item.
I was sort of in a hurry and to me, it was very obvious the guy arguing with me was wrong, and I'm sure a lot of people will back me up there, so I didn't feel the need to be too polite to him. WHAT I said was correct, HOW I said it wasn't. Still, I'd like to think I wasn't the one who started having ''that attitude''.
I don't feel like quoting the kid because it's honestly too much effort for someone who said so much stupid shit, but here's some facts:
- If you need sustain, just get a Vamp Scepter. No one buys Wriggle's just for the sustain, you buy it for the mix of AD, Lifesteal, ARMOR and a ward. Wriggle's is an intricate part of, for example, my Irelia build against pretty much any AD, and a HUGE reason is the armor it offers. The armor is also a reason no one with half a brain would get Wriggle's against 2 AP champions in lane - just get 2 Doran's blades and a Vamp scepter, it's so much better in said scenario.
- No one can or ever will last hit perfectly. You ARE going to miss CS, and Wriggle's won't change that. If you need to rely on a procc to farm under your turret, you are BAD at last hitting and should practice.
- At no point in this thread did I brag about or even mention my elo, what on earth are you talking about? I'm 1700, why would I brag about that? Also, I'd like to see the source of someone much more qualified than me saying to get Wriggle's against 2 AP.
- The point of this thread is to share the knowledge of our community with the OP who asked for help. We were trying to deliver. Sure, we could say, do this, do that, you'll be fine, but what would he learn by doing that? Personally, I'd much rather have someone with a lot of experience in this game explain me WHY something works and WHY it is good so I can start understanding the game and basing my own thought process around the stuff I just learned.
Not sure what to say. Someone who is CLG.Black called you out for being wrong and you still dick around. What's the point of arguing if you were proven wrong from several people, at least one of them being much, much better than you are. Anyway, that's all I have to add on the matter.
You still obviously haven't read the OP so I will explain it for you. He is having trouble last hitting under the turret 1v2. He asked if there is a set of champs that are good for this. The problem with your half-baked theory crafting is that your not considering the fact that the OP has two people zoning him. Even if he was pro he wouldn't be getting a large amount of cs. Getting a wriggles in this situation increases the amount you can cs by a quite a bit actually. Also, no one thinks to themselves, well I really need some armor now time to buy a wriggles. If you have then your really bad. There is about 100 better options than wriggles when you need armor. You buy a wriggles for the sustain and last hitting, the two things the OP needs. I like how your still arguing about one point when you complained about my entire post being wrong, and then was shown up. Anyways I don't think I explained well that this is a generalized strategy. Obviously some champs are better than others for going 1v2. One could easily play a champ like udyr and have enough sustain to prevent tower hits without a wriggles, while still getting last hits. Though gettting one wouldn't hurt you. But, for instance, if you wanted to play ad Karma for some reason you could use this strategy to still have enough sustain to win your lane. The point is you don't have to stop playing a champ you like just becuase you might be going 1v2. In many ways items can make up for the weaknesses of a character.
I'm sorry bro, you're just wrong.
If you're getting Wriggles against a champ that doesn't do physical damage you are doing it wrong. Hell, if you just need sustain/last hit at tower ability it would be smarter to spend 200 more gold on a Bilgewater Cutlass which gives you more lifesteal and considerably more AD. You copuld even spend like 200 less gold than wriggles on 2xDbaldes and a vamp scepter and get the same AD from wriggles as well as more lifesteal and an additional 160 HP.
If you aren't utilizing the armor from wriggles it isn't a cost efficient item. The ward is nice, but in a 2v1 lane it doesn't really matter too much, if they want to 3v1 gank/dive you it doesn't really matter if you see them coming or not, chances are you're gonna die regardless.
If anything I find Wriggles proc annoying when trying to last hit at tower, screws things up if you get it at the wrong time anyway.
No bro, you are wrong. Wriggles is good even against non physical dmg top laners.
The two alternatives you mention to wriggles all suffer from the same problem in the fact that you have to sell them at some point in the game which wastes gold. As a top laner being zoned out of cs I would think that gold efficiency would be a priority. The reason that wriggles is good even against non AP top laners is because all top laners have autoattack harass. It may not be much dmg but it's still some. You're also ignoring the fact that gold for wards doesn't just come free. At 75 gold per ward, they're not cheap. After 20 minutes with a wriggles you've just saved 500 gold in wards. The best thing about wriggles though is that it is a cheap item which scales into the late game. Not many cheap items do this.
If your that badly off for gold, you aren't worried about slot efficiency which is what your trying to implicate. How often do you get to 6 items when your that far behind on gold? The answer to that is not very, and if you do get that far, you definitely needed to make the right item choice earlier on to get there, amongst all the other right decisions. Also, if your continually pushed under your tower, how much warding do you think you'll be doing? Someone has already made the point in the thread that if your 1v2, seeing the third person come doesnt mean you wont die to the dive or just lose your tower. Rarely will you get out much past the range of the tower if your being pushed or controlling your creep wave well.
Also, your math on "saving 500 gold on wards" is absolutely terrible. You dont have a wriggles when you start the game... So, you cant be counting its wards, for at LEAST the first ward (And if you have a wriggles by 3 minutes... well, you multiple kills and cleared all the minions for the first 3 waves, so props to you) Assuming your having trouble getting gold, it wouldnt be unreasonable to have wriggles by 12, or even 15 minutes... Which means you may have to have brought several wards already anyway... So, by the first 20 minutes, maybe wriggles has saved you 150g... If you've gotten it at a reasonable timing. Finally, the vast majority of people wont have 100% ward up time, because its not needed. Especially seeing as I doubt your going back that frequently to buy wands, and even if you were, you wouldnt necessarily have them up the entire time. Oh, and who places a ward as soon as the game starts anyway, theres at least a minute or so before your near your lane, and your not the support warding in the jungle. Take a bit of a think about your logic before you try and use it to convince someone of your amazing point. Yes, wriggles is a good item. No, its not 500 gold in wards by 20 minutes, and it never can be in the most ideal of situations.
the above razors/wriggles to last hit under tower discussion has been the biggest joke of all time LOL
1 - for the original idea that getting a razor is good 1v2 so u can last hit is a absolute joke 2 - the fact people took him seriously + responded to him is also a joke LOL
I leveled playing ap a lot. If there was a 1v2 situation, I would volunteer and just farm at safe distance with spells. If there was no 1v2, I would just take mid. (Unless someone else was very confident in their 1v2, you can always ask. Communication is key!)
Mainly I did this with like.... Morg, Lux, Swain, Maokai if I was expecting to be in top lane, Kayle, basically anyone with a stronger aoe ability and some decent cc in case a good gank opportunity comes up.
This isnt as great an idea in higher levels of play, or against certain heroes, but if your not 30 yet, its an idea and it will help you learn how to play safe in a lane that you would probably lose. (Main reason I dont get fucking raped Lux vs Kass and some other shitty lanes.)
To be honest, if you ever play 1v2 in ranked you dont even have to get that many cs... For example if enemy A has 20 cs and enemy B has 30 cs, I think that any number between 20 and 30 cs should be fine. You just try to beat the person with the lowest cs, while your jungler beats the player with the highest. Note that in my example there are 50 minions in total, so you just have to kill less than half of them to be fine. Also, your jungler will be free to do counter jungling with your team at any moment, helping the other lanes to get an advantage.. Of course you will get dived a lot, but jungle ganks should be more effective because you are the one defending.
So, what you want is a champion that has some good aoe and great ability to gain distance from your enemy.I can't really suggest champions for top, but since I play mid most of the time, the first champion that comes to mind is Gragas.. Beastly farmer after the first buy, able to 1-shot aoe minions with his q after some point and he can easily escape all danger with his E and R. I'm sure there are many champions that can achieve the goal I mentioned above. And don't worry so much about unranked.. You probably just lost those games because your mid, jungler and bot weren't doing their job properly.. When you get ranked and play a couple of games (hopefully winning most) you will laugh if you encounter a team without a jungler.
On June 14 2012 19:07 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Oh yeah, and champs I would pick knowing I was going in 1v2:
Cho Galio Yorick Singed Sion Morgana Vlad GP Ezreal Heimer Maokai
A lot of them you have to sacrifice CS early but if they push you to tower you should get almost all of them regardless. Riot has made it quite hard to 1v2, though, and you basically want TP every time.
What is your logic behind Singed? I'm not very good at singed, but from what I know it seems like he wouldn't get anything until he gets much tanker (hence able to take some harass while running around smoking the creep wave). He has no ranged damage abilities to sneak in a few CS, and he doesn't have any inbuilt sustain. Am I missing something here?
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
Highlighted what I felt was a really important part that people often miss/mess up with 1v2 laning. Always grab a couple extra pots on every back, even if it means you're not finishing an item. Figure, if it was a 1v1 lane, you'd budget for a ward with every B. in 1v2 instead spend that same budget on 2 pots.
Not sure how I feel about wriggle - If I was playing a champ that had to decide between wriggles & 2 dorans, I'd probably just get the 2 dorans so I can more cheaply last hit under turret (without the complicated hit-towerattack-hit stuff) Wriggle would come too late compared to in a 1v1 lane anyway.
On June 14 2012 03:47 JuneCloud wrote: If by "perfectly fine" you guys mean never missing a single cs while two competent people are harrassing you then your just wrong. No one said it was a needed pick up. As a general rule of thumb for any ad champ trying to last hit under a tower, you will get more cs with wriggles. The strategy I suggested will work with any champ. Obviously there are champs like udyr and lee sin who don't need the sustain from wriggles to win a 1v2. But for someone who isn't level 30 yet and doesn't know the difference between champs who need or don't need the sustain, getting a wriggles is a good idea.
Most of us are good enough to get about 80% under tower through harass depending on champion. If anything madred's makes it harder because you can't control procs. Just get a bit better and you'll be able to do it, too.
If I could only get 80% of last hits under a turret in a 1v1 I wouldn't go on forums and give people advice. Although anyone of any skill level can give good advice, I personally wouldn't feel confortable doing it. Its sad that I have to explain this again but in a 1v2 situation you will be completely starved for cs as the OP has stated. If you were (insert top lane pro name here) you wouldn't get nearly the amount of cs in a 1v2 lane as you would 1v1. Especially against two hard damage dealing champs. If your fighting 1v2 against a support champ it is usually not as bad, unless that support is a good sona in which case gl with keeping your health high. The point is that it is OK that you will be behind in cs as you will still be winning your lane. Usually both enemy champs will be harassing you under the tower, even if it means they take a tower hit or two because they will feel the need to prevent you from getting cs. Often you are only allowed to get 2-5 minions hits off per wave. Wriggles allows to get more cs within the limits of the few hits your opponents allow you to get off. Don't brag about your 1v0 last hitting skills in a thread about going 1v2
@Wetty, your logic is so bad that there isn't too much to say though I will point out that players get a banshees veil specifically for the magic resist and the bubble adds to prevent ap dps by blocking a spell. Banshee veil is actually a great item to prove my point due to the fact that you pay a bit of money for extra mana, even though many high levels players get banshee veil on characters that don't use mana (this used to be much more common than it is now). The actual advice you give is pretty solid if not a bit generic.
About the original topic, laning 1v2 is hard, but there's 1 trick to it that a lot of people miss. You have to remain patient. I know it's tempting to try to step out from the safety of your tower and get a bit of cs, but if you do and die, then your situation just gets worse. Take teleport, it will really help. Biggest thing is not to get caught.
Great advice, you don't need to go for every bit of cs. Glad someone realizes that. If you can get a dialogue going with your jungler and explain to him that you might be going 1v2 and may need him to hold your lane, then you can trade teleport for a summoner that will give you more power in lane.
Many people have recommended good ap champs to play. These champs work due to the fact that they are pushers, or champs who can quickly clear a minion wave. Most of these champs have strong AoE. Quickly clearing a minion wave gives you more cs and helps prevent dives. A champion with an escape is especially helpful. Gragas is a good example.
Singed is kind of an oddball example of this. His poison is good at clearing minion waves but, at low levels, will take a bit of skill to get the last hits. His strong suit is the fact that he is extremely hard to dive due to his skill set and natural tankiness.
On June 14 2012 02:32 JuneCloud wrote: It doesn't matter what champion you play at all. If your an ad then start cloth+5pots. Build the cloth into madreds razor so you can last hit under the turret. Then get boots and turn the razor into wriggles lantern. Don't be afraid to call your jungler in when you need him. Constantly buy potions until lvl 8. Your team should win outright at this point because your income + your junglers income will far out weigh the duo lane.
Highlighted what I felt was a really important part that people often miss/mess up with 1v2 laning. Always grab a couple extra pots on every back, even if it means you're not finishing an item. Figure, if it was a 1v1 lane, you'd budget for a ward with every B. in 1v2 instead spend that same budget on 2 pots.
Not sure how I feel about wriggle - If I was playing a champ that had to decide between wriggles & 2 dorans, I'd probably just get the 2 dorans so I can more cheaply last hit under turret (without the complicated hit-towerattack-hit stuff) Wriggle would come too late compared to in a 1v1 lane anyway.
While you may have a point I think getting dorans might be the second best option. As in my post, you get the razor quite early in this strategy and use this before the wriggles. When you start cloth armor the razor is actually cheaper than 2 dorans. You can't start dorans because you need the health pots (I realize you of all people know this but I think it needs to be pointed out). Since potions are so effective at low levels, you don't immediatly need to get the vamp sceptar.
Dorans also gives you much less sustain unless you plan on buying 3. Buying 3 wastes money because you have to sell it soon after. Once the laning phase ends you start getting more income and the third dorans will be sold soon after. Ofcourse, 3 dorans is viable 1v1 when you will have a standard income, but this is a less than standard income situation.
I'm going to check later to see how much attack damage it takes to kill a caster minion that has only taken one turret shot and no other damage. It might not be viable without attack damage runes, and full rune sets are rare on players below 30 playing blind pick as most players prioritize champions. So many many champions in this game now and days.
I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
So, in my opinion, sustain and ranged farm are not all that is needed for a 1v2 champ top. Especially at lower levels, where 1v2s naturally appear, having some sort of hard cc is incredibly useful, because they WILL dive you most likely without exactly knowing what they do, and in a risky fashion, and if you have hard cc, you can often turn that around and get at least a kill, or maybe even a double kill when they dive you under your tower. Which might even make you stronger then your two enemies combined, and allow you to zone them in return, especially with the fear of jungler interaction. I wouldn't pick any melee, because you will get harassed even if you lasthit under your tower, especially when lasthitting ranged minions.
To be quite honest, i am mostly theorycrafting here. But in my opinion,Urgot should be very good. He is pretty tanky, can farm/harass from range, and once he hits 6 can keep people under his turret for prolonged periods of time if they come too close. Galio sounds good, too. If they dive you, and you ult them under the tower, they are probably both dead.
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
Eventually the 1 can just get some exp and last hits under/near tower
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
Also if they ever get autoattacked by minions because they got in the way of your next wave coming up, they will eventually push the lane. Also the lane will eventually push in one direction or another just from sheer randomness because the ranged minions on one side or the other might decide to focus fire while the opposing side splits fire.
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
On June 14 2012 03:25 aike wrote: I hate to agree with Shiv cuz he seems to be kind of a dick, but he's right. It's really easy to last hit under a tower you just need to know when to attack. It's definitely no where near impossible to do.
As long as you are playing safely you should be out leveling the 2 of them and getting more gold per minute, and your jungler should be outleveling and getting more gold than them. So when they push your lane you just play safe, do a bit of harassing, have the jungler come up for ganks and you should win the lane. The whole point of jungling is to get more exp and gold per minute than dual laning top. Everybody recommending champs that are good at 1 v 2ing lanes is stupid, because you don't know if you are 1v2ing a lane until after the game starts lol. So just play whoever you are comfortable with and use wards and communicate with your team so that you can get good ganks.
Its not that simple. Farming under tower can be very dangerous against ranged champs who synchronise their harass with tower attacks so they can get free hits in. later in game dragon control with jungler isimporant, but during laning phase a jungler who just gets the buffs and camps toplane(hotshotgg style)effectively 2v1ing it can give a huge advantage.
On June 13 2012 18:12 Arisen wrote: I'm starting this thread to inquire about how to lane 1v2. I'm still doing unranked matches to get to 30 so I can start ranked play, and often someone will jungle on my team, and not on the opposing team. I usually volunteer so no one feeds top, but Most of the time, I end up sitting under a turret for 15 mins barley getting any CS.
Sometimes I even get really troll top lanes like darius/singed running exhaust and ignite so you can't really get any CS at all. I think in theory the jungler should gank your lane a lot of they're going to be really pushed, but I find a lot of the times a gank in a 1v2 lane doesn't even force summoner spells.
Typically when I go top I play riven or cho. I find it's a little easier with cho because you can just w to get a little harass/CS, but it's still pretty bad, and the enemy team gets a good bit of chip off your tower.
Is there anything to do about 1v2 lanes? Are there certain heroes who do well in these scenarios, or are you just forced to sit under a tower for half the game?
You're supposed to sit under tower for 15 minutes. Get some cs, but only what you can. Learn to last hit under tower. If you get all the experience and half the gold of your opponents then your team is winning. Your jungler is getting experience their team isn't.
Junglers shouldn't gank top because there's no advantage. You're fighting a 2v2 where it's more likely that your team has lower life. Junglers should help elsewhere and get dragon. If you do take damage, then your jungler should come hold your tower for you so you can go back and buy or heal. Teleport is really helpful.
Why would you play melee champions top in a 1v2 lane? You know that in a 1v2 lane you'll not be able to do much. One champion that does well in 1v2 lanes is kayle since she has a very mana efficient ranged AoE clear.
Kayle doesn't do very well against anyone that can outrange her like urgot, or caitlyn though, and the tower chipping problem is still possible. I've played kayle vs cait nunu bot because of some really bad ally in the past who refused to communicate and fed top. Perhaps that was one of my placement ranked games. They took my tower but didn't get any kills. Every time I went after nunu, he'd snowball me and take a tower shot and heal back with consume. Every time I went after cait, she'd net me and auto with her superior range.
A lot of people also recommend mordekaiser to quickly clear creep waves in 1v2 lanes. I've done fine as morgana in the past. Just about any ranged champ can do well against 2 melees with no way to close the gap.
In the end 2v1 lanes can lead to lane freezing junglers not helping super long ranged/sustainy duo that can chip your tower quickly and shrug off your damage towards them.
There are champions that can do well at mitigating these effects, and that do well against any combo of enemies. But in the end LoL is a team game. You're not expected to win a 1v2 lane, getting kills as you please, just as you're not expected to win post lvl4 1v3 lanes or post lvl6 1v5 lanes. If you don't feed and the rest of your team can't push their huge advantage then there's nothing you can do. Good duo's are uncommon, but do exist.
On June 15 2012 02:45 JuneCloud wrote: @Wetty, your logic is so bad that there isn't too much to say though I will point out that players get a banshees veil specifically for the magic resist and the bubble adds to prevent ap dps by blocking a spell. Banshee veil is actually a great item to prove my point due to the fact that you pay a bit of money for extra mana, even though many high levels players get banshee veil on characters that don't use mana (this used to be much more common than it is now). The actual advice you give is pretty solid if not a bit generic.
Banshee is rarely gotten by champs other than initiators. It basically lets you charge a team and prevent one CC from stopping you from getting into position. On a carry it's generally useless because it will get popped when you don't want it and CC is much more deadly, which is why QSS is gotten so much more frequently. I don't think anyone ever gets Banshee's on non-mana champions since 6 months to a year ago.
Banshee's certainly won't help a 1v2 situation, either.
All you really do is start really defensively (e.g. cloth 5) and try to last hit as best you can without taking much poke damage. When the lane pushes, try to keep the lane in front of tower as long as possible, but if it pushes into tower make sure you actually get the last hits if you're going to put yourself up for poke.
There's never a moment where you should just try to 1v2 them when everyone is healthy. You either get them to eat your own poke or CC them under tower to get them low first, or you wait for a gank to happen. If you try to just outright 1v2 them you're going to die.
It's debatable what champs are "best" at 1v2, but the better ones tend to be tanky and/or sustainy while also having ranged abilities (Cho, Yorick, etc.). It lets you soak the poke you should be taking while still getting some CS/exp
At low levels, all you should worry about is farming as best you can and avoiding free damage. Do not fight them 1v2. Period.
Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote: Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass.
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote: Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass.
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before...
Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane.
I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote: Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass.
On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before...
Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane.
I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea. I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb.
On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote: Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass.
On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before...
Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane.
I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea. I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb.
No one has used 2 top instead of a jungler, however several teams (M5, CLG, TSM, MiG Blaze/frost, and I'm sure several more) have sent two top lane and one bot lane and effectively ran 2/1/1/jungle instead of 1/1/2/jungle making there be two 2v1 lanes.
You can influence whether creeps pull to your tower or their tower depending on how you interact with them. If you bunch up the opponents creeps before they meet your creeps they will be in a concave and start to focus fire your creeps as they meet the other wave. This will start to pull the creep wave toward your tower because obviously creeps with focus fire kill the creeps that dont focus fire faster.
This wave control happens in almost every high level game. Say I'm playing Riven against a nasus. I know as Riven I have a huge power advantage on Nasus early game, so I am going to auto each melee creep once so that the wave starts pushing towards the other tower, this means nasus can't fight or effectively get last hits. Also means that I'm going to hit two before he will, giving me an even bigger advantage. Nasus has two options, either he gets zoned for free and you get free last hits and the ability to buy while he is stuck in lane because he can't lose the CS/gold to the tower, or he gets pushed out of lane because he literally can't trade with you because if he does I take three minion auto attacks and he takes fifteen minion auto attacks. Also means if you push him out of lane/kill him it is much easier for you to hard push the lane and have the enemy laner lose Gold/Experience to his tower.
Now either way I as Riven have a power curve advantage as well as level/item, means I can tank the wave before it hits mine and have it pull towards my tower because of the focus fire. This allows me to freeze the lane near my tower and keep Nasus zoned indefinitely. This is why high level games are so snowbally, because once one champ grabs an advantage they can farm and the other champion can't. Not only that, Nasus is forced to be over extended where he is more gankable than you, and you have far more kill potential on him.
Now, obviously, this scenario is without any jungler intervention and is a rather one sided lane anyway but it still applies for any lane, 2v1, 1v1, top, bot, mid... you get the point.
On June 15 2012 14:19 MindBreaker wrote: Hey JuneCloud I don't know who you are but you seem like a rather pompous guy. 80% cs under tower is pretty good while getting harassed. You said that people who can only do that shouldn't try to give advice? After looking at all the information you have given I'm pretty sure your one of the people who shouldn't be giving advice. Wriggle and madreds procs are terrible for tower cs. There are so many better things to get if your I'n a 1v2.
I like how you didn't quote my post due to the fact that quoting it would immediatly show that I actually said literally the opposite of that. Sorry if I seem pompous, but i've been rather aggressive since one poster decided to shit up the thread with flawed logic (assumming that in a 1v2 situation that the 2 enemies will allow you to constantly auto attack minions) and posting memes. Wriggles is less than ideal in a situation where you are allowed to freely move around and hit each minion multiple times. This isn't that situation. If there are so many better things to get if your in a 1v2, then by all means please post your ideas instead of being vague and useless. Its rather pompous to tell someone that they shouldn't be giving advice I would start by editing your post so that you actually contribute something. So far all you have contributed to this thread is being an ass.
On June 15 2012 04:04 Seuss wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:33 JuneCloud wrote:
On June 15 2012 03:08 JokerSan wrote: I thought we concluded that with perfect play, the 1 will always lose since the 2 will just camp in front of the minion wave and never cs. Eventually the 2 will be level 18 and the 1 will be level 1.
Does that not happen in practice?
If the enemy last hits at all the lane will push eventually, though very slowly. I've never seen a game where two people managed to completely ignore cs. Though, if they did, imagine how useless two people with 0 cs will be to the enemy team, while your team only has one. Exprience can be made up for rather quickly actually. You may have noticed a long time dc catch up quickly in levels to the rest of the group. Also, the enemy positioning themselves this way makes them extremely open to ganks. Don't be afraid to tell the mid to come up with the jungler for a 3v2.
Usually you can still get close enough to some minion deaths to get exp so the disparity won't be a lvl 18 to lvl 1 difference. There might also be opportunities for the laner to kill some jungle camps even before the laning phase ends.
There are techniques the duo can use to keep a lane in the middle or pushing toward them indefinitely. If the duo intercept your minions they will group up, causing them to focus fire down the duo's minions when they clash. Combined with some intermediate last-hitting techniques to avoid pushing (e.g. using bushes to instantly deaggro, last-hitting minions that are about to die to incoming projectiles) they can create a lane imbalance in their favor. Once they reach 2-3 minions left over between waves it becomes utterly trivial for them to hold the wave outside of their own tower. It's not something you're likely to see in the Elo range where duo tops are common, but these techniques exist.
Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
Its not really craziness. And we have seen these strategies in tournaments before...
Its pretty basic minion/wave control that almost all good players know and utilize every game no matter what the lane.
I'm honestly starting to just think you're trolling.
VOD? Maybe there has been a pro level game where, instead of getting a jungler, a team has sent two people top and used this strategy to actually push the lane to their own tower. I don't watch every pro match that gets played. As for the basic mechanics, any stream viewer can understand the general idea. I'm honestly starting to think your not trolling, and actually this dumb.
No one has used 2 top instead of a jungler, however several teams (M5, CLG, TSM, MiG Blaze/frost, and I'm sure several more) have sent two top lane and one bot lane and effectively ran 2/1/1/jungle instead of 1/1/2/jungle making there be two 2v1 lanes.
You can influence whether creeps pull to your tower or their tower depending on how you interact with them. If you bunch up the opponents creeps before they meet your creeps they will be in a concave and start to focus fire your creeps as they meet the other wave. This will start to pull the creep wave toward your tower because obviously creeps with focus fire kill the creeps that dont focus fire faster.
This wave control happens in almost every high level game. Say I'm playing Riven against a nasus. I know as Riven I have a huge power advantage on Nasus early game, so I am going to auto each melee creep once so that the wave starts pushing towards the other tower, this means nasus can't fight or effectively get last hits. Also means that I'm going to hit two before he will, giving me an even bigger advantage. Nasus has two options, either he gets zoned for free and you get free last hits and the ability to buy while he is stuck in lane because he can't lose the CS/gold to the tower, or he gets pushed out of lane because he literally can't trade with you because if he does I take three minion auto attacks and he takes fifteen minion auto attacks. Also means if you push him out of lane/kill him it is much easier for you to hard push the lane and have the enemy laner lose Gold/Experience to his tower.
Now either way I as Riven have a power curve advantage as well as level/item, means I can tank the wave before it hits mine and have it pull towards my tower because of the focus fire. This allows me to freeze the lane near my tower and keep Nasus zoned indefinitely. This is why high level games are so snowbally, because once one champ grabs an advantage they can farm and the other champion can't. Not only that, Nasus is forced to be over extended where he is more gankable than you, and you have far more kill potential on him.
Now, obviously, this scenario is without any jungler intervention and is a rather one sided lane anyway but it still applies for any lane, 2v1, 1v1, top, bot, mid... you get the point.
Most TL users probably understand the basic idea and mechanics of lane pushing just from watching streams. A 1v2 without the enemy having a jungler is a bit different due to the fact that you can't lane switch and go to a 1v1 lane. Pro teams coordinate lane switches all the time in matches. In some of the games the lane starts out 1v1 top and a team decides to coordinate a recall 5/10 minutes into the game and send the ad/support top as they return to lane. Sometimes they send ad/support top as soon as the game begins. But in these situations the other team always has the option to counter and match the lane switch. We see this in many games. I don't want to get into a whole discussion on the obvious things like the fact they have to push out the lane before they recall to keep their turret alive, but they can call the jungler to hold the 1v2 lane while the 2v1 lane pushes and recalls. I don't understand your need to dedicate an entire post to insulting someone when we were talking about a situation in which the enemy doesn't have a jungler. As you said yourself, there hasn't been a pro game where a team didn't run a jungler and this is what we were talking about. I still think it would be interesting to see a strategy that involved sending two people top to ward off a player from getting any exp at all. I was just admitting that I have never seen this strategy as most games without a jungler are played at low levels, and this would be a rather in depth strategy for a low level game.
On June 15 2012 15:21 JuneCloud wrote: Thats some craziness I've never even heard of. Sounds like some people have going 2v1 down to a science. If they are that serious they probably deserve to win the game honestly. I'm sure a pro player would figure out some way to counter. Then again, maybe we will be seeing this strategy in a tournament one day. I think the commentary would be hilarious.
And that's just one example of why you shouldn't be giving advice. You're apparently not capable of comprehending the implied consequences of your advice. Lane controlling consists of simple techniques that, to a certain extent, are used in any lane, regardless of wether it's 1v1, 1v2, or 2v2. It's not rocket science, yet you consider it ''craziness you've never heard of''.
Let me explain to you like you're five why I decided to treat you like you had no clue about this game, and why you should not be giving advice. Maybe that will finally shut you up, even though I doubt it.
You started this whole thing by saying that generally, if you're playing an AD based champ and have to lane 1v2, it is a good idea to get Wriggle's, because it helps you getting last hits under your turret and it is the cheapest form of sustain in the game. Your next proposal was to buy potions up to level 8, a completely arbitrary number. You also said no one ever bought Wriggle's because of the armor; that no one could last hit perfetly fine without it. You said a lot more random shit not making sense later on, but I already stopped taking you seriously there, so I'll just dismantle these few statements of yours.
When coming into a game, your build shouldn't be set in stone, but rather a modification of a core build you have in mind. There is things you want to accomplish with your build - lane sustain, lane aggression, early-, mid-, or lategame power, maybe a certain item to counter a certain champion. Some people like to get Banshee's/Hexdrinker against Karthus, for example, others prefer carrying a red pot around against him. There is no laning champion in this game who NEEDS Wriggle's as an item regardless of the scenario, and there's a couple of situations where it's flat out BAD to get Wriggle's.
Every item has it's price, and you pay for all it's stats, wether you need them or not. There's insanely cost-efficient items like Guinsoo's Rageblade, and there's less cost efficient items like Madred's Razor. here's a spreadsheet if you want to read up on that All I was saying to you is that if you are laning against champions who deal a lot of magical damage, it is a bad idea to get Wriggle's because it is NOT COST EFFICIENT. You spend gold on stats you don't need, and so much of that. Let me tell you why Wriggle's is good. It's good because for 1600 gold, you get a certain amount of armor, AD, lifesteal, and a ward, that, if used on cooldown, has a value of about 3-4g/10s. Against a heavy magical lane (not that uncommon if they're playing double top to begin with), you will NOT utilize the armor, you will NOT utilize the ward effectively because you will be pushed to your tower the whole time, and if they want to 3v1 dive you, there's nothing you can do either way. You are basically paying for stats you do not need, and that is bad, especially in the low level games the OP is probably stuck in, because they're bad at farming. Either way, Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
Your argument to get Wriggle's was to last hit more easily under tower. Bullshit. To kill creeps under the turret, you have to get around 75 AD, and then do the very simple technique of hitting melee minions after the tower attacked them twice, hitting ranged minions once before the turret hits them and then again for the last hit. You said this isn't applicable because the enemy champions would harass you constantly. Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
Let me get this straight: your argument was
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote: You can't last hit under a turret "perfectly fine" without a razor.
You explicitly said last hit. Every champ can last hit perfectly fine without Razor/Wriggle's. Perfectly fine doesn't mean to get 100% of the CS, by the way, it never did. So let me ask you: what exact benefits does Wriggle's give you for JUST LAST HITTING?
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income? Basically, you were proposing to rely on luck rather than personal skill, something I'm sure works better for you, but doesn't necessarily have to apply to the OP, a person who made the impression he was willing to learn.
The next thing you got completely wrong was the statement that Wriggle's is the cheapest and most effective form of life steal. The most effective one obviously being Bloodthirster, I'll talk about the statement it's the cheapest. Wriggle's costs 1600 gold and offers 12% life steal. Executioner's calling costs 1350 gold and offers 18% life steal. 2 Doran's Blades and a Vamp Scepter, the item combination I proposed for laning against double AP, cost 1400 gold and offer 16% life steal. You make use of 100% of the stats you get for 1400 gold. Throw in a Null Magic Mantle for Merc Treads and you have an insanely costefficient combination of stats that work really well defensively. You get 3 AD less than Wriggle's which doesn't matter for lasthitting purposes. When buying a Wriggle's, you pay 200 gold more for armor you don't need, the ward you won't need until much later in the game, less life steal and 3 AD more. Your argument that my combination takes up more slots is largely irrelevant because let's face it: how fast do you think will low level players farm their THIRD big item, the first one that would need space the Doran's or the Vamp Scepter occupy? And even if he got it right after the laning phase ended: chances are he can use the Vamp scepter for a BT, and even if that's not the case, it's still cheaper to just sell one of those 3 items rather than to get Wriggle's.
Your last statement was to get pots up until level 8, which is a number you simply pulled out of your ass. There will be games he will be level 8 before the enemies hit 6, there will be games where he hits 8 when they're already 9. It's shitty advice because it doesn't factor in the many, many variables that make this game so exciting and different every time he plays it. Good advice would have been: get pots until you don't need them any more.
Anyway, I am done with you. You are a retard who got offended, many people much better (come on dude, Link is fucking 2500+, why would you argue with that?) told you you are wrong, some tried it the nice way, some didn't. I ask you to stop posting because what you are saying is wrong and the OP doesn't deserve shitty answers like yours. It's apparent you have no clue about how this game works. To end it with your own, arrogant words who made me make fun of you in the first place:
On June 14 2012 03:10 JuneCloud wrote: I'm sad any of this needed explaining...
All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious
How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious
Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon.
As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious
Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income?
Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs.
Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic.
Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts.
5 page argument so far from the OP ... Does 2v1 laning even happen in pro games/ranked? Pretty sure it only happens in what I play, which is scrubby <30 normals where people don't know what jungle is
On June 15 2012 19:12 JuneCloud wrote: All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious
How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious
Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon.
As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious
Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income?
Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs.
Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic.
Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts.
Still sad any of this needed explaining.
Holy fuck you're even worse than I thought haha. This is the last thing you are going to read in direct reply from me, as you are obviously incapable of understanding the most basic concepts of this game. Have fun and enjoy yourself.
On June 15 2012 19:29 BreakfastBurrito wrote: 5 page argument so far from the OP ... Does 2v1 laning even happen in pro games/ranked? Pretty sure it only happens in what I play, which is scrubby <30 normals where people don't know what jungle is
Yeah every once I'n a while a team will send thier ad and support top instead of bot so it's 2 v 1.
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income?
Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs.
Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic.
Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts.
Still sad any of this needed explaining.
I have to say the logic here is incredibly flawed. In a 1v2 lane, you want to keep the lane as pushed to you as possible so as to avoid being zoned and losing both experience and cs. So, you should only ever attempt to last hit, to avoid pushing as much as possible. Thus, the wriggles is not needed because you aren't aiming to proc ever, you don't need the ward because you won't be going anywhere near the river anyway, let alone be ganked by anyone, and if you aren't buying it for the armour, a vamp sceptre plus some doran's gives a lot more sustain for the same price, and okay so you may have to sell 2 doran's losing a total of about 300 gold to get a better item later, but for cost efficientness into the midgame, doran's are great, so I don't see the problem there, especially as you probably save 300 not getting wards for top during laning. Furthermore, you don't have to sell the vamp sceptre since a lot of tops do well with BTs, and you don't have to convert the armour to anything even if you start armour 5s, just save it for a later item, like GA or randuins.
You say you would get harassed out of lane 1v2 if they take tower shots to harass you every time you go to last hit, well aps are generally not that tanky so I would trade a tower hit for a bit of harass any day up for quite a few levels, at least up to level 6.
Also, why would your gold income increase dramatically if you can clear two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots? You can simply last hit after a melee minion has taken two last hits or after the caster minion has taken one (which is also easier if you stack doran's for the ad btw rather than relying on a proc which is random.).
Something I do as a jungler is to give the top lane a buff. Weather its blue or red and let them farm easier with it. Mid lane would help will help him get buff. While bot leashes for me. Since they don't have a jungler I can start their jungle also. So I get the buff I want and so does top.
It's not uncommon that even in low level games, a team without a jungler will try to invade. However, unless you give up kills on that invade, it's unlikely that they know how to capitalize on the invade rather than just having people show up extra late to lanes.
On June 15 2012 19:12 JuneCloud wrote: All of your arguments have already been shown to stem from false logic. How is level 8 an arbitrary number? Its simply when potions stop being cost effective. Someone who claims to be 1700 elo should know this by now. Obviously, if you start winning a 1v2 you will stop buying potions early (You don't buy potions when your far ahead). I just assume that its a situation where my opponents are actually competent and not at..well... your level of play. Unless your far ahead you don't know if you need potions anymore. Its better to just assume that you do so you don't end up feeding. Obvious
How is anything that I said a core build. Its an opening. Obvious
Its already been explained that you can't afford to waste money on 3 dorans or a vamp scepter that you will end up selling in a 1v2 lane. Also, its already been explained that Wriggles (Even if it didn't give you several things you are going to need) is still cheaper due to the fact that the only really good openings 1v2 are cloth+5 or just buying straight health potions. Even good double AP players will harass you with auto-attacks so in some ways cloth+5 is still better vs. double AP. You can build ninja tabi but spending precious gold on finishing boots gives you less sustain that your going to need soon.
As someone who is 1700, you should also understand how zoning works. If your turret is attacking a minion, the enemy knows exactly what minion your going to try and go after. They usually won't let you near it, even if it means they take a tower hit every now and then. This is especially true before level 30 when often the 1v2 lane is created due to two players arguing over who get to go top. Alot of times you end up against two tanky top lane characters. Wriggles gives you an ability to burst down minions to get a few precious extra cs. No other item gives you this ability per cost. This should be Obvious
Well guess what. First of all, it was the consensus you either need a champion who insteclears waves and doesn't give a fuck about all of that (which is why I won't elaborate on this), one that can farm from range or a champion with CC to prevent them from diving you constantly. If you have a ranged champion, voila, all your problems are solved. If you have a champion with CC, well, CC the fool attacking you and watch them die to your turret.
kinda the whole point to begin with. Some champions are better at winning 1v2, but it doesn't change the fact that any champion can still win in this situation. Again, already been explained and obvious
Another thing you said was I was arguing based under the assumption I could constantly autoattack, while it would be more realistic to get like 2-5 autoattacks off per creepwave. Assuming you actually meant Wriggle's is good for getting random CS with proccs, let me ask you this: do you really want me to do the math on how much CS you would get purely based on Wriggle's proccs if you are just autoattacking a few times, or do you realize that this is obviously not a reliable way to get a steady gold income?
Steady gold income doesn't exist in a 1v2 lane. Also been explained. Its even harder when you aren't high enough level to afford runes. You will be starved enough for gold that the the ability to clear minions faster with the proc will make a noticeable difference in your income. You don't walk up to a minion and pray that your going to get a proc as the last hit. Even if we did it your way the increase in gold would still exist. Not because wriggle procs will give you lots of cs but because your average cs will already be lower than your standard amount. In terms of percentages the return is quite good. If you can start clearing two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots, you gold income will increase dramatically. No, it still won't be massive, but it will be enough to win. I guess this is not as obvious but others have already explained that you should give up on trying to get every single cs.
Wriggle's is a HORRIBLE choice against these sort of lanes, also because it messes with any sort of lane control you might establish once you survived the early game.
This doesn't even make a bit of sense. If your only last hitting then wriggle procs don't make a single difference. The minion is going to die anyways. Really failed logic.
Your first two paragraphs prove your inability to use even basic reading concepts at this point. You need to take a deep breathe before you have a heart attack. Go and clear you mind so you can stop making shitty posts.
Still sad any of this needed explaining.
The majority of your posts must be in this thread. Are you actually trying to troll, or do you legitimately not understand? Good luck to you either way.
I agree with getting wriggles in a 1v2. It does help because sometimes the only window you get to get a minion is one where it wouldn't die without the extra attack damage from the wriggles or the proc. The ward is necessary because there is actually a high risk of getting dove as soon as the duo or the mid champ hit 6, particularly if you are getting harassed. You also want to keep your turret from hitting the minions so it doesn't push and you get zoned. With wriggles you can counter heavy pushing to an extent. However, even though some champions can in some manner 1v2, there are some duo combinations which are just not possible to go against. Particularly imo a ranged support and a melee "carry" with a gap closer, which will just zone you forever regardless of your champion.
you should only ever attempt to last hit, to avoid pushing as much as possible. Thus, the wriggles is not needed because you aren't aiming to proc ever, you don't need the ward because you won't be going anywhere near the river anyway
You want to proc when your starved for cs. The other team will push the lane back under your turret if they are last hitting at all. If they aren't last hitting, your jungler will be so far ahead than both of them that it won't matter. Unless the wave is under your turret you probably aren't last hitting anyways. The point is that people think you can't freeze the lane just because you have a wriggles. That doesn't make any sense. The ward is actually very important. Often mid will come up and try to dive you from behind.
Assuming you can get a BT on any character is extremely flawed.
You say you would get harassed out of lane 1v2 if they take tower shots to harass you every time you go to last hit, well aps are generally not that tanky so I would trade a tower hit for a bit of harass any day up for quite a few levels, at least up to level 6.
It should be obvious to any player that most ap champs have the range to hit you if you go for minions. Thats why I said specifically tanky champs won't care if they take a tower hit if it means zoning you and they won't need to take a hit most of the time. No one said they were taking hits for every minion you go for. That would just be retarded.
Also, why would your gold income increase dramatically if you can clear two melee minions before the first dies to tower shots? You can simply last hit after a melee minion has taken two last hits or after the caster minion has taken one (which is also easier if you stack doran's for the ad btw rather than relying on a proc which is random.).
If you had actually read any of the pages before this you would have your answer. There is no point in saying it again. I will add that in those rare situations when you don't actually have any choice other than relying on the proc, it is nice to have.
On June 15 2012 23:51 sylverfyre wrote: It's not uncommon that even in low level games, a team without a jungler will try to invade. However, unless you give up kills on that invade, it's unlikely that they know how to capitalize on the invade rather than just having people show up extra late to lanes.
This is very common. Teams without a jungler will often feel a need to invade under the belief that they can make up for not having jungler. At low levels of play this sometimes works because the jungler will not know how to adapt. Most of the time it does indeed fail due to lack of coordination.
@Shiv I know your keyboard warrior pride has been hurt. I hope that when you finally calm down you will learn how to take all factors of a situation into consideration and begin to take your game to the next level. GLHF
Edit: Heh, Cloud beat me to most of what I wanted to say. The worst is when one of the enemies is blitz/darius/singed since they can displace you from your turret. IMO, I don't think anything is imbalanced to the point of being unbeatable in this game though.
wriggles is not a cs'ing tool, it's for pushing. More often than not, when you're trying to freeze a lane, the wriggles proc is more problematic than helpful.
Regardless, the decision to get wriggles is almost completely irrelevant to the lane being 1v2. People keep turning this into wriggles is bad or wriggles is good, when the only item changes you should really be making in a 1v2 should be game specific, and not rely on such bogus arguments that ultimately say 'wriggles is good in almost all 1v2's' or 'wriggles is awful in almost all 1v2's'. There are no generalizations saying what specific item you should/shouldn't get in a 1v2 situation across the board, your item decisions should start with champ decision, then take into account a slightly lower gold income, the thought process should be: hmm, is wriggles reasonable on this champ? -> if no, then it ends there. If yes, then consider the usefulness of all of the stats -> if it still looks good then buy it. The point of this exercise is to reinforce the concept of thinking before purchasing, not to tell people what they should do and follow it in all 1v2 situations.
The only problem I had with this whole wriggles thing is the idea that ALL 1v2 champs should take it or ALL 1v2 champs shouldn't take it, when in reality, the lane being 1v2 has considerably smaller relevance than other factors, most notably, whether or not your champ can even use wriggles well in the first place.
On June 16 2012 00:27 Cloud wrote: I agree with getting wriggles in a 1v2. It does help because sometimes the only window you get to get a minion is one where it wouldn't die without the extra attack damage from the wriggles or the proc. The ward is necessary because there is actually a high risk of getting dove as soon as the duo or the mid champ hit 6, particularly if you are getting harassed. You also want to keep your turret from hitting the minions so it doesn't push and you get zoned. With wriggles you can counter heavy pushing to an extent. However, even though some champions can in some manner 1v2, there are some duo combinations which are just not possible to go against. Particularly imo a ranged support and a melee "carry" with a gap closer, which will just zone you forever regardless of your champion.
It's not necessarily wrong to get Wriggle's in a 1v2, but it's also not necessarily right. However, none of the arguments I've read in favor of Wriggle's have been very compelling.
Wriggle's is only 3 AD more than two Doran's Blades. The situations where that makes a difference should be extremely rare.
Wriggle's proc is not a reliable way to pick up difficult to CS minions. The situations where Wriggle's proc might be the difference between a CS and a miss are rare enough, but only one in five of those situations will result in a CS due to Wriggle's.
If you're in a position where you can use Wriggle's to keep the enemy creep wave from building to the point where it pushes into your tower, you're probably in a position where you could do the same thing without Wriggle's.
Basically, I haven't seen a compelling argument for why a 1v2 situation favors Wriggle's over other common openings. As it stands it seems to me that you'd keep building Wriggle's on the champions for whom it makes sense, and keep building other items on the champions for whom that makes sense.
Wriggles is extremely common top and no, it's not gotten because "it's a pushing item". It's gotten because of the amazing combination of armor/damage/sustain/ward and easier cs. I don't know if you are seriously recommending people to get dblades in a lane you can't ever go aggressive. How are you going to open? With boots and 3 pots? Anyone that isn't ranged is going to get raped with that opening. The only viable opening is cloth + 5 poths which easily transitions into wriggles. As for the csing. Wriggles may not be a reliable way to pick up difficult minions but it's often the only way when you are getting zoned.
On June 16 2012 03:44 Cloud wrote: Wriggles is extremely common top and no, it's not gotten because "it's a pushing item". It's gotten because of the amazing combination of armor/damage/sustain/ward and easier cs. I don't know if you are seriously recommending people to get dblades in a lane you can't ever go aggressive. How are you going to open? With boots and 3 pots? Anyone that isn't ranged is going to get raped with that opening. The only viable opening is cloth + 5 poths which easily transitions into wriggles. As for the csing. Wriggles may not be a reliable way to pick up difficult minions but it's often the only way when you are getting zoned.
Read the whole thread before saying stuff no one ever proposed. Don't turn this into your Shen 2.0 bro (Apologies if you're the wrong Cloud, but it was a joke and shouldn't be considered as something else. <3)
Of course there's a bunch of scenarios where you want to get Wriggle's 1v2 top, no one EVER said you shouldn't. If your champ fits Wriggle's and the enemies deal a lot of physical damage, get it, d'uh. You won't find anyone saying something contrary in this thread. There's just a couple of equally likely scenarios where you will NOT want to get Wriggle's, period. Like if you were laning against Veigar/Karthus. Would you seriously consider getting Wriggle's? Obviously, it would be a waste of gold, and you'd rather get a combination of DBlades/NMM/Vamp scepter.
Also, fuck Cloth 5 against these sort of lanes. Just start 13 pots and farm forever. And don't tell me it isn't viable because no one does it bla bla, Dyrus does it on Morde against LeBlanc for example.
On June 16 2012 06:29 Seuss wrote: I thought it was Cloud9157 who had the friends who thought Shen wasn't OP, not plain Cloud. Maybe I'm confused.
Might have been a different cloud, and honestly, I was trying to lighten up the atmosphere by making a joke. Apologies to Cloud if I got that wrong. I think the point I was trying to put across is valid, though.
EPT
I feel like the best tip to give when playing blind pick before level 30 is to pick a champion that is safe. Anytime i thought great, now i am using panth and destroy top i got a double lane and couldn't do a lot. A friend of mine leveled with cho and yorick, mostly versus two, and won his lane most of the time. Don't try to pick counterchamps like teemo or panth and you'll be fine if you take the advice of the other users about how to generally behave on your lane, you should be fine.
