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On June 12 2012 21:54 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 21:49 dooraven wrote:
I don't even understand why you guys think CLGeu did poorly this LAN, sure they did lose to CLGna and TSM but the quality of those games speak enormously, thier 5th/6th place finish is misleading. It's not like they were like aAa and utterly got demolished. Both series were very close and could have gone either way. Once Yellowpete and Krepo get more Lan experience they'll do so much better. I didn't watch the CLG EU vs CLG NA games but considering how TSM vs CLGNA and TSM vs CLGEU went, I don't understand how CLGEU lost. Summary anyone?
their bot lane got anally devastated pretty much all the time, come mid/late game teamfights the other team always had a fed graves melting everyone while yellowpete corki did jack shit
ultimately froggen botching one karthus ulti lost them the series vs clg na
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Why do M5 never get any love when discussing the best team in the world? They roflstomped TSM at kiev then roflstomped EVERYONE at IEM championships.
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On June 12 2012 21:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Completely wrong. What popularized mundo was the reduced hp cost on W from 20 a second to 10.
TOO is hands down the best jungler in the game right now. Saintvicious is fucking terrible. He never practices, and when he did he randomed a jungler for like 6 months.
Maokai is completely out classed by amumu now. Mundo is a better shyvana (and udyr). Skarner and rammus were nerfed to death. Lee sin is far too gank heavy to see good play in 5's unless you want to camp top all day which would be obvious. Naut is amazing at fucking everything, noct and shen fit into 5's play incredibly well turning any fight into a disadvantage. There are other junglers who can do well but people don't seem interested in playing. Good solo queue junglers are gank centric, while good 5's junglers are farmers than can counter gank.
Man, thank god there's guys like you who got it all right.
Those changes did not popularize Mundo. Pros or high elo players popularize builds and everyone starts picking them up because they're sheep. Not saying it's a bad thing, but that's how this shit goes. Pretty much everyone but T_D and gtrsrs hated Shyvana until Kiev, where m5 came, stomped with it and then proceeded to let everyone know they got trolled because Shyvana isn't even Diamond's best champ. Same happened to Mundo/Kings of Europe and the following weeks of scrims.
Hands down best jungler in the game? How do you determine that? What makes him better than, say, Diamondprox or some of the Chinese junglers?
What makes Saint terrible and how are you so terribly informed about what he does off stream? He just changed teams, give the man a break. He was subbing for Crs.EU as an AP mid and hence practiced that. Saint plays a style almost no other pro junglers play, that doesn't make him terrible.
Maokai isn't outclassed by Amumu, they fulfill completely different roles. Try snowballing your midlane from lvl 3 onwards as Amumu. Mao is an early ganker that pretty much becomes a second support come late game, if you play Mumu, you are looking for late game tankiness and tons of utility. Mundo is a lot like Shyvana and Udyr early on, but their late games are vastly different. Same deal as above. Lee isn't played as much as of lately, but has scary counterganks and invades really well early on. He's GREAT for camping mid from lvl 3 onwards. Again, Diamondprox plays him frequently. Also, he's been used in 45% of the games in Hannover, won 15 of the 20 games he was picked. Some of those were Lee top, but still. What the fuck are you talking about? Naut is weak early on and starts clearing quickly later. He's a beast and I agree, but he's not amazing at everything. Noct is great, I agree, Shen is a shitty jungler. He's a great niche pick, but he is NOT a good jungler.
Get your shit straight before acting like you knew stuff.
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On June 12 2012 22:19 schmutttt wrote:
Why do M5 never get any love when discussing the best team in the world? They roflstomped TSM at kiev then roflstomped EVERYONE at IEM championships.
I think it's cuz they don't appear at any offline events so people kind of forget them. I still think they are the best though 
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On June 12 2012 22:21 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 21:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Completely wrong. What popularized mundo was the reduced hp cost on W from 20 a second to 10.
TOO is hands down the best jungler in the game right now. Saintvicious is fucking terrible. He never practices, and when he did he randomed a jungler for like 6 months.
Maokai is completely out classed by amumu now. Mundo is a better shyvana (and udyr). Skarner and rammus were nerfed to death. Lee sin is far too gank heavy to see good play in 5's unless you want to camp top all day which would be obvious. Naut is amazing at fucking everything, noct and shen fit into 5's play incredibly well turning any fight into a disadvantage. There are other junglers who can do well but people don't seem interested in playing. Good solo queue junglers are gank centric, while good 5's junglers are farmers than can counter gank. Man, thank god there's guys like you who got it all right. Those changes did not popularize Mundo. Pros or high elo players popularize builds and everyone starts picking them up because they're sheep. Not saying it's a bad thing, but that's how this shit goes. Pretty much everyone but T_D and gtrsrs hated Shyvana until Kiev, where m5 came, stomped with it and then proceeded to let everyone know they got trolled because Shyvana isn't even Diamond's best champ. Same happened to Mundo/Kings of Europe and the following weeks of scrims. Hands down best jungler in the game? How do you determine that? What makes him better than, say, Diamondprox or some of the Chinese junglers? What makes Saint terrible and how are you so terribly informed about what he does off stream? He just changed teams, give the man a break. He was subbing for Crs.EU as an AP mid and hence practiced that. Saint plays a style almost no other pro junglers play, that doesn't make him terrible. Maokai isn't outclassed by Amumu, they fulfill completely different roles. Try snowballing your midlane from lvl 3 onwards as Amumu. Mao is an early ganker that pretty much becomes a second support come late game, if you play Mumu, you are looking for late game tankiness and tons of utility. Mundo is a lot like Shyvana and Udyr early on, but their late games are vastly different. Same deal as above. Lee isn't played as much as of lately, but has scary counterganks and invades really well early on. He's GREAT for camping mid from lvl 3 onwards. Again, Diamondprox plays him frequently. Also, he's been used in 45% of the games in Hannover, won 15 of the 20 games he was picked. Some of those were Lee top, but still. What the fuck are you talking about? Naut is weak early on and starts clearing quickly later. He's a beast and I agree, but he's not amazing at everything. Noct is great, I agree, Shen is a shitty jungler. He's a great niche pick, but he is NOT a good jungler. Get your shit straight before acting like you knew stuff.
Mundo was buffed so people started playing him, it isn't that hard to understand. There's a reason why no one plays shyv in 5's, and it's because shyv sucks. That's why it was so insulting to all the teams M5 beat with shyv, the champion isn't even good. So you're wrong on both counts because you fail to understand why things happen.
Next I never said shen was a good jungler, but that he fit the role of counter ganking. There is no such thing as a champion that becomes support later in the game. There's something called being worthless later in the game. If you are going to put maokai into the early snowball worthless lategame category, he's grossly out matched, which is why I'd rather put him as tanky cc. There's 4 gross errors in what you've said and it didn't take me long to see them.
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On June 12 2012 22:35 AngryFarmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 22:19 schmutttt wrote:
Why do M5 never get any love when discussing the best team in the world? They roflstomped TSM at kiev then roflstomped EVERYONE at IEM championships. I think it's cuz they don't appear at any offline events so people kind of forget them. I still think they are the best though
?? m5 is known for not doing so well in online stuff but absolutely wrecking shit at lans, like they did at 2 iems in a row, taking 2 golds while only dropping a single map over the two tournaments
they just dont go to america, i assume because mother russia
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United States47024 Posts
Man I'm late to the party. Some notes to add:
1) I'd say TPA is the stronger team that WE. WE beat them at NGF, but you have to remember that the event was offline in Shanghai, so WE had a huge home turf advantage (IIRC the WE training house is in Shanghai, not sure though). In online events like Go4LoL Pro Asia, TPA has beaten WE.
2) Chinese bot lanes are on a completely different level from NA/EU. This isn't my fanboyism, this is by Doublelift's own admission.
3) Both WE and TPA have undergone significant roster changes for the better since Western audiences last saw them play. In WE's case, they changed junglers twice. YJTM isn't a TOO/Ballz-level jungler, but he's good enough. Joker was mediocre, and Ayaya was pretty terrible. In TPA's case, Toyz and Bebe were added to the roster this year. As much as I love Mistake and NexABC, Toyz and Bebe are definitely the stronger AP/AD carry.
4) Lilballz is definitely at least as good as TOO/Saint in the jungle, if not better.
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On June 12 2012 23:07 TheYango wrote:
Man I'm late to the party. Some notes to add:
1) I'd say TPA is the stronger team that WE. WE beat them at NGF, but you have to remember that the event was offline in Shanghai, so WE had a huge home turf advantage (IIRC the WE training house is in Shanghai, not sure though). In online events like Go4LoL Pro Asia, TPA has beaten WE.
2) Chinese bot lanes are on a completely different level from NA/EU. This isn't my fanboyism, this is by Doublelift's own admission.
3) Both WE and TPA have undergone significant roster changes for the better since Western audiences last saw them play. In WE's case, they changed junglers twice. YJTM isn't a TOO/Ballz-level jungler, but he's good enough. Joker was mediocre, and Ayaya was pretty terrible. In TPA's case, Toyz and Bebe were added to the roster this year. As much as I love Mistake and NexABC, Toyz and Bebe are definitely the stronger AP/AD carry.
4) Lilballz is definitely at least as good as TOO/Saint in the jungle, if not better.
I agree with everything written here. I only really follow bot laners and junglers closely but man those teams are down right scary. Bebe+Mistake are just on a completely different level to DLift+Chauster. Unless NA/EU pull some next level cheese or something they're not going to beat TPA/WE. As much as I tell myself that CLG can win a LAN, I have no doubt that if TPA and WE are both present then unless TPA/WE meet each other early in the same side of the brackets, CLG have almost no chance of top 3 in the same LAN. I have no doubts that the same applys to any of the other A and B tier teams in NA/EU.
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Ionic spark udyr might be something pretty good but idk if he does anything better then any other jangler. Mundos also good beacuse he never gets low health in the jungle which is a problem for some junglers as well as being completely non blue dependent for anything which makes him a bit different I guess. reds nice on him but even that isn't needed for him to do anything. with his high health he can tower dive a lane easy and soak up a few shots before walking out. Shen is counter gank beyond all reason with his ability to dive into any lane at almost any time after 6. CLG also showed how he can split push so easy and boa constrictor a team once they have the advantage like no other team showed at mlg.
CLG= Clutch Law Gangsters TSM= The Shiv Mob. Thats what I'm always gona see from now on when I see those teams.
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On June 12 2012 22:39 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 22:21 Shiv. wrote:On June 12 2012 21:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Completely wrong. What popularized mundo was the reduced hp cost on W from 20 a second to 10.
TOO is hands down the best jungler in the game right now. Saintvicious is fucking terrible. He never practices, and when he did he randomed a jungler for like 6 months.
Maokai is completely out classed by amumu now. Mundo is a better shyvana (and udyr). Skarner and rammus were nerfed to death. Lee sin is far too gank heavy to see good play in 5's unless you want to camp top all day which would be obvious. Naut is amazing at fucking everything, noct and shen fit into 5's play incredibly well turning any fight into a disadvantage. There are other junglers who can do well but people don't seem interested in playing. Good solo queue junglers are gank centric, while good 5's junglers are farmers than can counter gank. Man, thank god there's guys like you who got it all right. Those changes did not popularize Mundo. Pros or high elo players popularize builds and everyone starts picking them up because they're sheep. Not saying it's a bad thing, but that's how this shit goes. Pretty much everyone but T_D and gtrsrs hated Shyvana until Kiev, where m5 came, stomped with it and then proceeded to let everyone know they got trolled because Shyvana isn't even Diamond's best champ. Same happened to Mundo/Kings of Europe and the following weeks of scrims. Hands down best jungler in the game? How do you determine that? What makes him better than, say, Diamondprox or some of the Chinese junglers? What makes Saint terrible and how are you so terribly informed about what he does off stream? He just changed teams, give the man a break. He was subbing for Crs.EU as an AP mid and hence practiced that. Saint plays a style almost no other pro junglers play, that doesn't make him terrible. Maokai isn't outclassed by Amumu, they fulfill completely different roles. Try snowballing your midlane from lvl 3 onwards as Amumu. Mao is an early ganker that pretty much becomes a second support come late game, if you play Mumu, you are looking for late game tankiness and tons of utility. Mundo is a lot like Shyvana and Udyr early on, but their late games are vastly different. Same deal as above. Lee isn't played as much as of lately, but has scary counterganks and invades really well early on. He's GREAT for camping mid from lvl 3 onwards. Again, Diamondprox plays him frequently. Also, he's been used in 45% of the games in Hannover, won 15 of the 20 games he was picked. Some of those were Lee top, but still. What the fuck are you talking about? Naut is weak early on and starts clearing quickly later. He's a beast and I agree, but he's not amazing at everything. Noct is great, I agree, Shen is a shitty jungler. He's a great niche pick, but he is NOT a good jungler. Get your shit straight before acting like you knew stuff. Mundo was buffed so people started playing him, it isn't that hard to understand. There's a reason why no one plays shyv in 5's, and it's because shyv sucks. That's why it was so insulting to all the teams M5 beat with shyv, the champion isn't even good. So you're wrong on both counts because you fail to understand why things happen. Next I never said shen was a good jungler, but that he fit the role of counter ganking. There is no such thing as a champion that becomes support later in the game. There's something called being worthless later in the game. If you are going to put maokai into the early snowball worthless lategame category, he's grossly out matched, which is why I'd rather put him as tanky cc. There's 4 gross errors in what you've said and it didn't take me long to see them.
I agree mostly with what you said, but you have some revisionist history. At the time of Kiev Shy was the best at that type of jungler, and also Saint had been popularizing it for months. On the second count you basically aren't even guilty because only CLG fanboi's really knew since he had only been using her in online events, the only thing that made M5's approach different was the way they used her in tandem with GP or Lee in the enemies top jungle.
Evidence
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303572 - played on Ahri patch.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V1.0.0.132 - Mundo buffed Sej patch.
(also for the record no longer a CLG fan boy, TSM.Evo all the way baby)
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On June 12 2012 22:19 schmutttt wrote:
Why do M5 never get any love when discussing the best team in the world? They roflstomped TSM at kiev then roflstomped EVERYONE at IEM championships.
Well, M5 is a very good team for sure. The reason why I neglect to mention them is that CLG.eu almost always beats them convincingly when they meet. However, I suppose that in many of these games, it's a battle of which mid snowballs their team to a lead first, and Froggen usually edges out Alex Ich.
M5 is hard to rate because they may be "hiding strats" again like they did before the IEM championships. However, one thing's for certain about M5 - they really bring their A-game to the big LANs.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:38 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:07 TheYango wrote:
Man I'm late to the party. Some notes to add:
1) I'd say TPA is the stronger team that WE. WE beat them at NGF, but you have to remember that the event was offline in Shanghai, so WE had a huge home turf advantage (IIRC the WE training house is in Shanghai, not sure though). In online events like Go4LoL Pro Asia, TPA has beaten WE.
2) Chinese bot lanes are on a completely different level from NA/EU. This isn't my fanboyism, this is by Doublelift's own admission.
3) Both WE and TPA have undergone significant roster changes for the better since Western audiences last saw them play. In WE's case, they changed junglers twice. YJTM isn't a TOO/Ballz-level jungler, but he's good enough. Joker was mediocre, and Ayaya was pretty terrible. In TPA's case, Toyz and Bebe were added to the roster this year. As much as I love Mistake and NexABC, Toyz and Bebe are definitely the stronger AP/AD carry.
4) Lilballz is definitely at least as good as TOO/Saint in the jungle, if not better. I agree with everything written here. I only really follow bot laners and junglers closely but man those teams are down right scary. Bebe+Mistake are just on a completely different level to DLift+Chauster. Unless NA/EU pull some next level cheese or something they're not going to beat TPA/WE. As much as I tell myself that CLG can win a LAN, I have no doubt that if TPA and WE are both present then unless TPA/WE meet each other early in the same side of the brackets, CLG have almost no chance of top 3 in the same LAN. I have no doubts that the same applys to any of the other A and B tier teams in NA/EU.
If WE has a weakness, it's their top lane. Personally I think WE's success is largely rooted on the strength of Misaya as a mid AP and as captain, and on Weixiao's fantastic bot lane play. From what I've seen, Caomei pretty regularly underperforms top lane, feeding some pretty stupid first bloods, and with questionable decision making in general.
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On June 12 2012 22:39 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 22:21 Shiv. wrote:On June 12 2012 21:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Completely wrong. What popularized mundo was the reduced hp cost on W from 20 a second to 10.
TOO is hands down the best jungler in the game right now. Saintvicious is fucking terrible. He never practices, and when he did he randomed a jungler for like 6 months.
Maokai is completely out classed by amumu now. Mundo is a better shyvana (and udyr). Skarner and rammus were nerfed to death. Lee sin is far too gank heavy to see good play in 5's unless you want to camp top all day which would be obvious. Naut is amazing at fucking everything, noct and shen fit into 5's play incredibly well turning any fight into a disadvantage. There are other junglers who can do well but people don't seem interested in playing. Good solo queue junglers are gank centric, while good 5's junglers are farmers than can counter gank. Man, thank god there's guys like you who got it all right. Those changes did not popularize Mundo. Pros or high elo players popularize builds and everyone starts picking them up because they're sheep. Not saying it's a bad thing, but that's how this shit goes. Pretty much everyone but T_D and gtrsrs hated Shyvana until Kiev, where m5 came, stomped with it and then proceeded to let everyone know they got trolled because Shyvana isn't even Diamond's best champ. Same happened to Mundo/Kings of Europe and the following weeks of scrims. Hands down best jungler in the game? How do you determine that? What makes him better than, say, Diamondprox or some of the Chinese junglers? What makes Saint terrible and how are you so terribly informed about what he does off stream? He just changed teams, give the man a break. He was subbing for Crs.EU as an AP mid and hence practiced that. Saint plays a style almost no other pro junglers play, that doesn't make him terrible. Maokai isn't outclassed by Amumu, they fulfill completely different roles. Try snowballing your midlane from lvl 3 onwards as Amumu. Mao is an early ganker that pretty much becomes a second support come late game, if you play Mumu, you are looking for late game tankiness and tons of utility. Mundo is a lot like Shyvana and Udyr early on, but their late games are vastly different. Same deal as above. Lee isn't played as much as of lately, but has scary counterganks and invades really well early on. He's GREAT for camping mid from lvl 3 onwards. Again, Diamondprox plays him frequently. Also, he's been used in 45% of the games in Hannover, won 15 of the 20 games he was picked. Some of those were Lee top, but still. What the fuck are you talking about? Naut is weak early on and starts clearing quickly later. He's a beast and I agree, but he's not amazing at everything. Noct is great, I agree, Shen is a shitty jungler. He's a great niche pick, but he is NOT a good jungler. Get your shit straight before acting like you knew stuff. Mundo was buffed so people started playing him, it isn't that hard to understand. There's a reason why no one plays shyv in 5's, and it's because shyv sucks. That's why it was so insulting to all the teams M5 beat with shyv, the champion isn't even good. So you're wrong on both counts because you fail to understand why things happen. Next I never said shen was a good jungler, but that he fit the role of counter ganking. There is no such thing as a champion that becomes support later in the game. There's something called being worthless later in the game. If you are going to put maokai into the early snowball worthless lategame category, he's grossly out matched, which is why I'd rather put him as tanky cc. There's 4 gross errors in what you've said and it didn't take me long to see them.
Your opinions != facts.
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On June 12 2012 21:18 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 20:31 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On June 12 2012 14:07 Slaughter wrote:On June 12 2012 10:52 1ntrigue wrote:
I remember CLG.eu being at some small LAN in the past but forgot which. Can someone remind me?
MLG is the first LAN of any repute that CLG.eu has attended though, and I've never seen Froggen, Krepo or yellowpete at a LAN (but I think yellowpete played in a LAN 1-2 years ago).
I thought Wickd played fine. He didn't play to his utmost potential, but he didn't play poorly and made very few mistakes (given limited information). Snoopeh usually helps snowball Wickd a bit, but he was really, really off (and quite unlucky) at MLG imo.
Edit: Surprises of the tournament for me were how weak EVO were compared to what I thought their strength was, and how strong CLG.na actually is. HotshotGG in the jungle role has a lot of potential, and he may actually become the best jungler in the world once he knows how to, well, jungle. TSM has improved massively (but I would still rank them #4 in the world, WE > TPA > CLG.eu > TSM imho, but it's all so close), but they get props because of their synergy and consistency. Have WE and TPA done anything of note to be placed at the top of the world? TSM, Both CLGs, M5, and a couple of Korean squads have something to say about that. Since Yango isn't here I'll fill in. WE won IEM Guangzhou and are very strong in local Chinese tournaments, especially after iG (their closest competitor) had roster changes and some of their best players like MikakoTabe and Whitezz left. TPA on the other hand are considered the best in the Garena League and a class above everyone. They did lose in WCG although now they have a better roster and are taking LoL more seriously. One of the commentators say on stream that any group with TPA is the real "Group of Death" because everyone in that Group is basically fighting for second place. TPA also demolished Najin e-mfire recently and it wasn't even close. Considering how strong Najin were in OGN, even though officially teams like WE and TPA haven't played recently against NA/EU we can kinda get an idea how strong they are. And it's pretty scary tbh. Oh, and fun fact. Lilballz and Jiji from raided WoW with Classick on the Riot Design Team and that's how they started playing LoL. To add to this, WE is easily the best team in China by far. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw them lose a Bo3 with any Chinese team, and the Chinese teams like CLC are strong - like CLG.na strong. They also demolish all the Korean teams in Bo3+ scrims and online tournaments and their only real competitor is TPA, against whom they still have a very convincing record. TPA did get revenge on WE in the last Go4LoL Asia finals with a very impressive but extremely close 2-0 albeit with a ~100ms ping advantage. CLG.na, Fnatic and the Korean teams all have experience in playing against WE and I believe CLG.na's record against them was a ~10% winrate despite ping advantage (they scrim on the NA servers as well and its basically 50ms ping vs 200ms). However, I have hyped teams up before, such as CLG.eu, who have fallen short in big LANs, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, it's my 100% belief than WE and TPA are stronger than CLG.eu, TSM and both MiGs under ideal conditions.
I just would rather be cautious because we have seen Chinese teams get hyped in games before and they never "dominate" the way everyone thinks in actual events. But yea I remember Doublelift talking about how strong they were but I want to see it at a tournament. One of those "thats why they play the games" type of things. I agree with what someone said earlier in that its impossible to decide since NA/EU/Asia haven't had many opportunities to face off with each other and I think it would be a really fucking great tourney if the top from all 3 major regions where thrown into the fire and had to play each other.
I hope to see this soon because it would be amazing.
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Why is SNK hating on dragonbitch?
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On June 13 2012 00:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Why is SNK hating on dragonbitch?
because she doesn't have CC reduction and cleavers.
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On June 13 2012 00:38 Slusher wrote:Anyone know if this is legit or a keylogger http://imgur.com/YIJtgLink is to imgur of a screenshot.
If it isn't it's the most cheesy support message I've seen in a while. =D
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On June 13 2012 00:42 Mogwai wrote:because she doesn't have CC reduction and cleavers.
But she's a dragon...
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I sent an email to riot but if anyone has any info I would appreciate. Don't want to type in my password till I have this thing figured out.
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EPT
