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United States47024 Posts
On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Locket of iron solari +30 base shielding and +5 shield hp per level.
I'd up the base shielding more aggressively, but not increase the shielding per level.
Unless the shield has an AP ratio, there's simply no way it can scale up aggressively enough to be any good at level 18. A buff to the base shielding with the aim of making it good when you buy it seems more appropriate.
On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Unnamed Item: Components: Avarice blade (750) + Madreds Razer (1300) + recipe (50) 2100 total = +20 damage + 30 armor. 50% chance to deal 50 true damage on hit. Active: Reduces armor on enemies and self in a 250 AOE around caster by 30 for 10 seconds. 30 second CD.
This item is based on a combination of MKB and Medallion from Dota. provides an alternate build path for avarice, and would be a good jungler item as well as a decent bruiser item as well.
I would shy away from itemized true damage. MKB bashes still do physical damage, so that comparison is not apt at all. You also have to realize that 50 gold for an active and a passive effect is simply way too low.
Additionally, there is no consistent synergy between the passive and active, and the completed item ditches THREE of the stats from the component items (gp10, crit, Razor proc)--no other item does this. From a design perspective, the item feels clunky because of this.
On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Unnamed item 2: Components: Null magic Mantle (400) + Cloth armor (300) + Recipe (100) 800 total = 20 armor 25 magic resist, 5 gold/10
This item fills a niche for support tanks that they currently lack, and the aegis change will help supports get an aegis up in games as well
Too close too the old HoG, both in terms of cost-effectiveness and effect. You're effectively just swapping 1 component and the build-path.
Realistically if you want to improve support itemization, you just want to make highly gold efficient, slot-inefficient dead-end items in the 800-1500 gold range.
On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Aegis of the Legion: Build from unnamed item 2 (800) + Ruby Crystal (475) + recipe (650) Total 1925 = Same stats as before.
You're being too closed-minded seeing Aegis as a support item. The most apt comparison in DotA is Mek--bad teams will try to shoehorn it onto supports, but realistically it's much smoother and more game-changing to buy on a 3rd/4th position hero that can finish it 10+ minutes earlier than a 5th position support. Aegis is fine where it is, and it doesn't need these kind of build path tweaks.
On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
unnamed item 3: Components: Unnamed item 2 (800) + Blasting wand (860) + recipe (440) total 2100 = 30 armor 30 magic resist 50 AP, active: Provides 60 Tenacity to target for 3 seconds.600 range. Cooldown 20 seconds.
This is...hard to judge. A bit clunky to say the least. 20 second cooldown is DEFINITELY too low for it.
On July 03 2012 15:21 PrinceXizor wrote:
Hm... i think the recipe should cost like 550 or 750 not 50. but leaving the item unchanged. since 25 true damage an attack puts the item stronger than malady but weaker than wits end. but we need it to be more expensive than wits end because it has an active. though it could easily drop 5 AD off the item and leave it at +15 to make it less cost efficient.
What? Malady and Wit's do magic damage. In an average scenario, true damage procs are worth 1.5-3x as much as a similar amount of magic damage.
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On July 03 2012 15:21 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 14:23 Dark_Chill wrote:On July 03 2012 14:04 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 13:58 arb wrote:On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Unnamed Item: Components: Avarice blade (750) + Madreds Razer (1300) + recipe (50) 2100 total = +20 damage + 30 armor. 50% chance to deal 50 true damage on hit. Active: Reduces armor on enemies and self in a 250 AOE around caster by 30 for 10 seconds. 30 second CD.
This item is based on a combination of MKB and Medallion from Dota. provides an alternate build path for avarice, and would be a good jungler item as well as a decent bruiser item as well. \ just thinking about that Avarice blade + razor item makes me want to cut my own wrists. What about it? numbers? or just the combination of AD/armor/true damage/debuff active? Number wise, it's just far too strong. Also, 50%chance for 50 bonus damage on hit sounds really strong for an item that gives 20dmg, 30 amr and an amazing active. I'd say the item Avarice blade itself is what needs the change. Who exactly is supposed to buy it? Supports need gp10 for income, and the stats are pretty helpful too. hp+mana regen is always good, and extra health is very useful to have. Extra AP is a nice stat, while also building into dfg. Who would get Avarice? It's less valid on carries since they're ranged. Junglers won't get it because there are just better items more helpful to jungling. That leaves top laners who use their aa for most of the damage, but crit is just too unreliable compared to getting a real item. Hm... i think the recipe should cost like 550 or 750 not 50. but leaving the item unchanged. since 25 true damage an attack puts the item stronger than malady but weaker than wits end. but we need it to be more expensive than wits end because it has an active. though it could easily drop 5 AD off the item and leave it at +15 to make it less cost efficient. as for you zulu, The items are strong -cost efficient items for the mid game and for initiations, this directly helps the situation i described in multiple ways. The only remaining variable is i didn't cover anything to help pushing. currently in LoL there is no need to push repeatedly until you win a fight and have an advantage. pushing is at a disadvantage because of how strong towers are, how siege minions are meant to tank tower shots not siege towers. and how easy it is to clear waves. Summons are one answer to this. adding a summon character would help, another would be letting locket affect creeps too. Or making promote give siege minions the same range as towers...
why don't you play the game instead of theorycrafting about something you don't understand.
User was warned for this post
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a 20 second cooldown is low for an item that provides partial protection from potential CC for 1 target for 3 seconds?
the only reason i suggested a low cooldown there was because it was single target and kind of reactive.
also the whole resist based gold/10 and putting aegis on it was an attempt to move aegis from a jungler/top item to support tank item solely to free up money for stronger initiation items on the jungler/top characters not because i see aegis as a support only item, actually i don't i wanted it to BECOME a support item.
As for the true damage item, yeah, probably needs tweaking it was the one i was the least sure about putting together, but that active on an item for a bruiser would be very good for the game imo.
On July 03 2012 15:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:
why don't you play the game instead of theorycrafting about something you don't understand.
cute. wrong. but cute.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
a 20 second cooldown is low for an item that provides partial protection from potential CC for 1 target for 3 seconds?
The problem is that when you stack 60 tenacity with existing tenacity effects, the effect becomes a targetable BKB-like on certain heroes. 3 second BKB with a 20 second CD would be quite strong even in DotA. It would be far out of the bounds of acceptable power levels in LoL.
On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
also the whole resist based gold/10 and putting aegis on it was an attempt to move aegis from a jungler/top item to support tank item solely to free up money for stronger initiation items on the jungler/top characters not because i see aegis as a support only item, actually i don't i wanted it to BECOME a support item.
Making MORE items that build from gp10 that supports don't finish until 30 minutes into the game completely misses the mark with what support itemization needs. They don't need more ways to delay being useful--they have too many of those already. There are enough good late-game aura item options for supports to take. The reason they're shoehorned into the gp10 early game is because there are no items that really kick in at that time when they need to. They need strong cost-efficient core items that have immediate usefulness in the 15-20 minute range when teamfights start happening. This requires pricing effective support item actives in the 800-1500 gold range, not making more gp10s with further build-paths that supports can't finish until later.
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On July 03 2012 15:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:21 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 14:23 Dark_Chill wrote:On July 03 2012 14:04 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 13:58 arb wrote:On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Unnamed Item: Components: Avarice blade (750) + Madreds Razer (1300) + recipe (50) 2100 total = +20 damage + 30 armor. 50% chance to deal 50 true damage on hit. Active: Reduces armor on enemies and self in a 250 AOE around caster by 30 for 10 seconds. 30 second CD.
This item is based on a combination of MKB and Medallion from Dota. provides an alternate build path for avarice, and would be a good jungler item as well as a decent bruiser item as well. \ just thinking about that Avarice blade + razor item makes me want to cut my own wrists. What about it? numbers? or just the combination of AD/armor/true damage/debuff active? Number wise, it's just far too strong. Also, 50%chance for 50 bonus damage on hit sounds really strong for an item that gives 20dmg, 30 amr and an amazing active. I'd say the item Avarice blade itself is what needs the change. Who exactly is supposed to buy it? Supports need gp10 for income, and the stats are pretty helpful too. hp+mana regen is always good, and extra health is very useful to have. Extra AP is a nice stat, while also building into dfg. Who would get Avarice? It's less valid on carries since they're ranged. Junglers won't get it because there are just better items more helpful to jungling. That leaves top laners who use their aa for most of the damage, but crit is just too unreliable compared to getting a real item. Hm... i think the recipe should cost like 550 or 750 not 50. but leaving the item unchanged. since 25 true damage an attack puts the item stronger than malady but weaker than wits end. but we need it to be more expensive than wits end because it has an active. though it could easily drop 5 AD off the item and leave it at +15 to make it less cost efficient. as for you zulu, The items are strong -cost efficient items for the mid game and for initiations, this directly helps the situation i described in multiple ways. The only remaining variable is i didn't cover anything to help pushing. currently in LoL there is no need to push repeatedly until you win a fight and have an advantage. pushing is at a disadvantage because of how strong towers are, how siege minions are meant to tank tower shots not siege towers. and how easy it is to clear waves. Summons are one answer to this. adding a summon character would help, another would be letting locket affect creeps too. Or making promote give siege minions the same range as towers... why don't you play the game instead of theorycrafting about something you don't understand.
I'm not usually such an asshole when posting here, but why don't you stop being a douchebag? He's making statements concerning the way LoL is played and offering ideas on how to put more diversity into the item pool. If you disagree, go ahead and put your own comments explaining why you don't believe these are correct or good.
Secondly, when looking back on the previous page, you posted one sentence with no backing to your ideas.
Finally, read the title. It's [...] general discussion. A discussion has an exchange of ideas and is meant to serve a purpose. Trying to shut down ideas without putting forth your own arguments, you help no one in this thread, and by that logic, should most likely stop posting here.
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Baa?21245 Posts
They should just put in buyback tbh.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 03 2012 15:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
They should just put in buyback tbh.
Buyback without TPs would feel too gimmicky, and lopsided. You could practically speaking only buyback into high-ground defending fights--because you can't TP out after buying back into a fight somewhere else on the map (e.g. buying back into a Baron fight).
Also consider that buybacks with globals would be even more OP than they are in DotA, again because there are no TPs. Additionally, no TPs means the aggressor doesn't have the option for situational offensive buybacks, unless they're running such a global hero.
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On July 03 2012 15:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
a 20 second cooldown is low for an item that provides partial protection from potential CC for 1 target for 3 seconds? The problem is that when you stack 60 tenacity with existing tenacity effects, the effect becomes a targetable BKB-like on certain heroes. 3 second BKB with a 20 second CD would be quite strong even in DotA. It would be far out of the bounds of acceptable power levels in LoL. Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
also the whole resist based gold/10 and putting aegis on it was an attempt to move aegis from a jungler/top item to support tank item solely to free up money for stronger initiation items on the jungler/top characters not because i see aegis as a support only item, actually i don't i wanted it to BECOME a support item. Making MORE items that build from gp10 that supports don't finish until 30 minutes into the game completely misses the mark with what support itemization needs. They don't need more ways to delay being useful--they have too many of those already. There are enough good late-game aura item options for supports to take. The reason they're shoehorned into the gp10 early game is because there are no items that really kick in at that time when they need to. They need strong cost-efficient core items that have immediate usefulness in the 15-20 minute range when teamfights start happening. This requires pricing effective support item actives in the 800-1500 gold range, not making more gp10s with further build-paths that supports can't finish until later.
See Zulu, that is how you post. You present your own opinions on the matter and provide information as to why people should believe your opinions.
When I think of GP10s, you usually want them to pay off before making them into items. Wards/oracles are good for a support, but don't solve the problem of supports being underpowered (player-wise, not game-wise). You get one or two big items, and ward up as much as you can. And that's it. Having items that hit early on and let you take a risk to gain an advantage are a great way to give supports more options and, depending on the items, make them feel more powerful. Items that are strong early game but aren't too weak late game.
What about an item that lets you be immune to cc for one second? Alistar could get that extra chance to run up without being stunned or hit away. What about an item that lets temporarily boost a teammate's resistances? Soraka could save that teammate she wouldn't have been able to before. What about an item that increases the damage of your creeps as an aura? With good warding, you could make them miss out on last hits under tower while being fairly safe.
The best part is that even another champ tried to abuse this in another lane, he just used 1000 gold that will be taken away from his lategame items. It creates the risk-reward that could really increase the excitement in the game (on the e-sport side as well).
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If buyback was implemented, I'm sure a lot of teamfight and splitpush champs would opt for Flash and TP summoners and carry spare wards lategame.
I would like to see a mechanic that has a similar effect on the game to buyback for DotA, but to port buyback directly into LoL would be extremely hard to balance with numbers. Another way to implement buyback, for instance, is to make an item that has a buyback ability on CD with shitty stats. Or perhaps have a reduction on the death counter, but have it scale with accumulated deaths (i.e. on a separate plane to scaling by level) - that would mitigate the problem of feeders as well.
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buyback drags games out way too much, I don't really care about the benefits it provides, that alone is too painful for me.
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On July 03 2012 15:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:21 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 14:23 Dark_Chill wrote:On July 03 2012 14:04 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 13:58 arb wrote:On July 03 2012 13:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
Unnamed Item: Components: Avarice blade (750) + Madreds Razer (1300) + recipe (50) 2100 total = +20 damage + 30 armor. 50% chance to deal 50 true damage on hit. Active: Reduces armor on enemies and self in a 250 AOE around caster by 30 for 10 seconds. 30 second CD.
This item is based on a combination of MKB and Medallion from Dota. provides an alternate build path for avarice, and would be a good jungler item as well as a decent bruiser item as well. \ just thinking about that Avarice blade + razor item makes me want to cut my own wrists. What about it? numbers? or just the combination of AD/armor/true damage/debuff active? Number wise, it's just far too strong. Also, 50%chance for 50 bonus damage on hit sounds really strong for an item that gives 20dmg, 30 amr and an amazing active. I'd say the item Avarice blade itself is what needs the change. Who exactly is supposed to buy it? Supports need gp10 for income, and the stats are pretty helpful too. hp+mana regen is always good, and extra health is very useful to have. Extra AP is a nice stat, while also building into dfg. Who would get Avarice? It's less valid on carries since they're ranged. Junglers won't get it because there are just better items more helpful to jungling. That leaves top laners who use their aa for most of the damage, but crit is just too unreliable compared to getting a real item. Hm... i think the recipe should cost like 550 or 750 not 50. but leaving the item unchanged. since 25 true damage an attack puts the item stronger than malady but weaker than wits end. but we need it to be more expensive than wits end because it has an active. though it could easily drop 5 AD off the item and leave it at +15 to make it less cost efficient. as for you zulu, The items are strong -cost efficient items for the mid game and for initiations, this directly helps the situation i described in multiple ways. The only remaining variable is i didn't cover anything to help pushing. currently in LoL there is no need to push repeatedly until you win a fight and have an advantage. pushing is at a disadvantage because of how strong towers are, how siege minions are meant to tank tower shots not siege towers. and how easy it is to clear waves. Summons are one answer to this. adding a summon character would help, another would be letting locket affect creeps too. Or making promote give siege minions the same range as towers... why don't you play the game instead of theorycrafting about something you don't understand.
The last few days all I've seen from you are oneliners, usually insulting someone. Quality poster right there.
By the way, ARAM on Proving Grounds is awesome fun, I also feel like it kind of helps you improve teamfight positioning... In a way.
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Saying that about proving grounds reminds me of when I used to play competitive tf2. The first team I was on was stupendously shitty and the group leader was an alcoholic. Our demo (carry) was his terrible friend and our medic (support) was the demo's girlfriend. There are like servers where you can go and everyone floats in slow motion because it's low gravity and the map is basically a huge plain and the weapons do quad damage. It's completely retarded.
Anyway I remember our demo used to go on those servers and be like "this is really helping my aim, I feel like my aim is so good now." When you can click on half your screen and get the right spot, and there's high quality positive feedback for doing so, you feel really rewarded, constantly, because even though you know intellectually your achievement is pathetic you've been trained to associate that feedback with skill.
Anyway, that's positioning on proving grounds.
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When I look at LoL atm it looks like it's at the good place regarding game time/snowball/kills.
The only thing that would be nice would be a few new items.
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On July 03 2012 15:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
a 20 second cooldown is low for an item that provides partial protection from potential CC for 1 target for 3 seconds? The problem is that when you stack 60 tenacity with existing tenacity effects, the effect becomes a targetable BKB-like on certain heroes. 3 second BKB with a 20 second CD would be quite strong even in DotA. It would be far out of the bounds of acceptable power levels in LoL. Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 15:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
also the whole resist based gold/10 and putting aegis on it was an attempt to move aegis from a jungler/top item to support tank item solely to free up money for stronger initiation items on the jungler/top characters not because i see aegis as a support only item, actually i don't i wanted it to BECOME a support item. Making MORE items that build from gp10 that supports don't finish until 30 minutes into the game completely misses the mark with what support itemization needs. They don't need more ways to delay being useful--they have too many of those already. There are enough good late-game aura item options for supports to take. The reason they're shoehorned into the gp10 early game is because there are no items that really kick in at that time when they need to. They need strong cost-efficient core items that have immediate usefulness in the 15-20 minute range when teamfights start happening. This requires pricing effective support item actives in the 800-1500 gold range, not making more gp10s with further build-paths that supports can't finish until later.
Pretty sure tenacity doesn't stack right? so the 60 tenacity from the buff would only provide 60% reduction, unless you have a % reduction skill (non tenacity), like trundle/irelia ect. and pushing irelia from 85% reduction to 100% (for 3 seconds) isn't really going to change the fact that no one is going to be touching irelia with non-knockup cc anyway. also it doesn't provide magic immunity like a bkb, so you still take all the damage.
and honestly my thought process isn't that supports are flawed (even though i play support) it's that the game is so centered around that AD carry bottom that the other roles turn into supports 1-3 and then a nuker. I dunno it just seems like there is 0 variety in playstyles. So i was trying to find ways to make top/jungle more relevant instead of just vehicles to feed/support your carry.
LOL jayce's title is enough to make me never want to play him ever. "defender of tomorrow" i don't care how fun he is to play that's just dumb. the fact that i have that one guys voice (who said " welcome to the world of tomorrow") from futurama saying his title whenever i read jayce's name is enough to turn me off that guy forever.
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On July 03 2012 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
why not just keep items the way they are because i don't think the game is in a good place item wise, specifically in regards to support (since it's my specialty) and top lane (my secondary role). I feel LoL is far too passive far too difficult to initiate fights, far too difficult to win fights in which you are behind in gold/xp. teamfights are too much of a "who makes the first mistake and gets initiated on" with very very few ways of forcing mistakes.
fights are hard to initiate when the game is even and/or a team has a shitty comp for initiating. Fights are supposed to be difficult to win when you are down in gold and xp because you are down in gold and xp. If getting initiated on decides fights then people wouldn't hesitate to initiate every chance they get, there are far more factors to winning fights than who initiates. Everything you said in that paragraph is wrong.
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wow u see that smite game looks amazing
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On July 03 2012 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
why not just keep items the way they are because i don't think the game is in a good place item wise, specifically in regards to support (since it's my specialty) and top lane (my secondary role). I feel LoL is far too passive far too difficult to initiate fights, far too difficult to win fights in which you are behind in gold/xp. teamfights are too much of a "who makes the first mistake and gets initiated on" with very very few ways of forcing mistakes. fights are hard to initiate when the game is even and/or a team has a shitty comp for initiating. Fights are supposed to be difficult to win when you are down in gold and xp because you are down in gold and xp. If getting initiated on decides fights then people wouldn't hesitate to initiate every chance they get, there are far more factors to winning fights than who initiates. Everything you said in that paragraph is wrong.
i don't even think you read what i wrote. because you are arguing against nothing that i wrote.
it's not even that they are difficult to win, they are often impossible to win without a mistake from the other team. you can play perfectly while down xp/gold in team fights and almost every time if the opponent doesn't make mistakes, and like i said before, there are very very few ways of forcing mistakes in lol. it's like you didn't understand/read anything i wrote. 
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On July 03 2012 16:43 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 16:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:On July 03 2012 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 03 2012 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
why not just keep items the way they are because i don't think the game is in a good place item wise, specifically in regards to support (since it's my specialty) and top lane (my secondary role). I feel LoL is far too passive far too difficult to initiate fights, far too difficult to win fights in which you are behind in gold/xp. teamfights are too much of a "who makes the first mistake and gets initiated on" with very very few ways of forcing mistakes. fights are hard to initiate when the game is even and/or a team has a shitty comp for initiating. Fights are supposed to be difficult to win when you are down in gold and xp because you are down in gold and xp. If getting initiated on decides fights then people wouldn't hesitate to initiate every chance they get, there are far more factors to winning fights than who initiates. Everything you said in that paragraph is wrong. i don't even think you read what i wrote. because you are arguing against nothing that i wrote. it's not even that they are difficult to win, they are often impossible to win without a mistake from the other team. you can play perfectly while down xp/gold in team fights and almost every time if the opponent doesn't make mistakes, and like i said before, there are very very few ways of forcing mistakes in lol. it's like you didn't understand/read anything i wrote.
I dunno what you mean by forcing mistakes? the only things i cans ee like that are getting caught by an ali combo or a dark binding or a fist or something.
you shouldnt be able to force the team to make mistakes if they're playing well ?
making mistakes should be on the other team id think?
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Every team makes mistakes, its just that better players make the window of opportunity to exploit them smaller and they know how to recover better. No one has perfect positioning 100% of the game, maybe its just one second when teams are dancing that someone exposes themselves but its there. Also even if no one makes a mistake in a team fight a player on a team that is down can still make a play to turn the tide in their favor.
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So... another patch, another round of every support champ getting nerfed. Although I'm so psyched at the Sona buff I don't really care this time. 30% mana cost reduction is a lot of mana saved, might get to run armour seals instead of mana regen which strengthens lane immensely.
It's a nice feeling when your favourite champ gets buffed isn't it. :D It's never happened to me before since all they do is nerf supports.
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EPT
