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On June 30 2012 13:45 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 12:59 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:44 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:27 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:04 Dusty wrote:On June 30 2012 11:26 sung_moon wrote:
Since he's been free week, finally got to play Draven. Who knew catching axes could be so fun? It is quite fun! Wish it wasn't so hard to do effectively in teamfights though :c My opinion is that catching axes in teamfights isn't 100% necessary. You just need to catch one. Hit Q/W, attack a target and make sure you catch the axe that comes out to refresh your W. You get ~5s of attackspeed steroid which makes you insanely strong compared to most AD carries. Obviously the key to maximizing your DPS is to catch all the axes but in a teamfight, that's not possible. Catch only the ones that you need to to keep your W up. If you catch the first two axes, you've generally won the teamfight since your steroid is greater than any other ad carry in the game's steroid except maybe vayne. Kogmaw has a word or three with you~ As much as I love kog, if he doesn't have blue lategame, his W is up for the same time as draven's steroid but cannot get refreshed and has a pretty massive cooldown. If kog can't win the teamfight in the 8 seconds his W is up, he has a much harder time living to see it up again than draven. Um... First of all, to catch an axe you need to either A: Run into the middle of everything and get in range of everyone and probably die or B: Retreat and miss like 4 autoattacks or C: Run to the side and hope that goes well too. I guess you could also stand still but good luck with that when you only have 550 range. His escape is godawful, 1.5s movespeed buff that decreases incredibly quickly so it's effectively just a... maybe 100-150 unit escape. His damage is awesome but not in a teamfight, he's good for focusing down targets that are CC'd. However teamfights aren't what he's especially good at The first axe is pretty easy to catch from my experience. In most teamfights, either your team gets initiated on or you initiate on the other team. If your team got initiated on, generally, you're going to be attacking whoever's in front. That person should not have another gap closer unless they didn't have to use it to initiate, meaning you get an easy target to release the first axe and also, you get to choose where to move the axe. Getting up to 6 seconds of a pretty strong attack speed steroid is pretty damn good. (Obviously tristana is better for this though). The MS going down doesn't really matter IMO, the attack speed steroid is what you want refreshed since autoattacks are the primary way to . He's pretty similar to a longer ranged sivir. Draven, like most AD carries will still melt tanks if he has to hit them. Also, despite its near useless nature, Draven's E is good enough to disrupt people who dive onto you long enough to get ~200-300 distance away. He's extremely good at teamfights if you can get it down to the 3v3 or 2v2 situations near the end since draven's dueling is very strong. The interaction between his Q/W refresh means that if you're mechanically solid, no one can actually outrun you without a shurelya's. Take my opinions with a grain of salt though. I've only played draven during free week and even then, only for 3 games.
Hmm, the thing is, when Draven finally gets PD, does chasing after the "q" in a stand and fight situation worth the loss of an auto attack?
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On June 30 2012 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 13:45 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:59 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:44 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:27 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:04 Dusty wrote:On June 30 2012 11:26 sung_moon wrote:
Since he's been free week, finally got to play Draven. Who knew catching axes could be so fun? It is quite fun! Wish it wasn't so hard to do effectively in teamfights though :c My opinion is that catching axes in teamfights isn't 100% necessary. You just need to catch one. Hit Q/W, attack a target and make sure you catch the axe that comes out to refresh your W. You get ~5s of attackspeed steroid which makes you insanely strong compared to most AD carries. Obviously the key to maximizing your DPS is to catch all the axes but in a teamfight, that's not possible. Catch only the ones that you need to to keep your W up. If you catch the first two axes, you've generally won the teamfight since your steroid is greater than any other ad carry in the game's steroid except maybe vayne. Kogmaw has a word or three with you~ As much as I love kog, if he doesn't have blue lategame, his W is up for the same time as draven's steroid but cannot get refreshed and has a pretty massive cooldown. If kog can't win the teamfight in the 8 seconds his W is up, he has a much harder time living to see it up again than draven. Um... First of all, to catch an axe you need to either A: Run into the middle of everything and get in range of everyone and probably die or B: Retreat and miss like 4 autoattacks or C: Run to the side and hope that goes well too. I guess you could also stand still but good luck with that when you only have 550 range. His escape is godawful, 1.5s movespeed buff that decreases incredibly quickly so it's effectively just a... maybe 100-150 unit escape. His damage is awesome but not in a teamfight, he's good for focusing down targets that are CC'd. However teamfights aren't what he's especially good at The first axe is pretty easy to catch from my experience. In most teamfights, either your team gets initiated on or you initiate on the other team. If your team got initiated on, generally, you're going to be attacking whoever's in front. That person should not have another gap closer unless they didn't have to use it to initiate, meaning you get an easy target to release the first axe and also, you get to choose where to move the axe. Getting up to 6 seconds of a pretty strong attack speed steroid is pretty damn good. (Obviously tristana is better for this though). The MS going down doesn't really matter IMO, the attack speed steroid is what you want refreshed since autoattacks are the primary way to . He's pretty similar to a longer ranged sivir. Draven, like most AD carries will still melt tanks if he has to hit them. Also, despite its near useless nature, Draven's E is good enough to disrupt people who dive onto you long enough to get ~200-300 distance away. He's extremely good at teamfights if you can get it down to the 3v3 or 2v2 situations near the end since draven's dueling is very strong. The interaction between his Q/W refresh means that if you're mechanically solid, no one can actually outrun you without a shurelya's. Take my opinions with a grain of salt though. I've only played draven during free week and even then, only for 3 games. Hmm, the thing is, when Draven finally gets PD, does chasing after the "q" in a stand and fight situation worth the loss of an auto attack?
Mathematically? No. Q adds 85% AD at max rank, so it doesn't quite add up to the full benefit of having another attack. But it's more bursty and if you're moving anyway and the axe is there, you should get it.
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United States47024 Posts
Without re-igniting the DotA 2 vs. LoL discussion, I find it kind of disappointing that people can call DotA 2 players un/misinformed about LoL, and at the same time post such similarly un/misinformed bullshit.
EDIT: Incidentallly, the discussion about mana management/spell usage during laning phase is kind of ironic, because most of the heroes with really shitty early mana management are holdovers from when Guinsoo was still developing the game. Virtually every Icefrog hero has very smooth mana management.
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I cannot stop smiling how ez mode Kennen is.
200+ points off of playing him mostly. The guy just does not lose top.
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For the next first of April I'll beg to Neo that they can merge League/DotA forum into a "MOBARTS forum", make one joint GD and General Questions thread. Boy, that'd be the fun of my life. =S
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Top lane: Who is Irelia a solid pick against at the moment?
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On June 30 2012 14:22 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Top lane: Who is Irelia a solid pick against at the moment?
She trucks Vlad. Olaf trucks her. Besides those matchups I can't think of much she can't handle. She basically has trouble vs burst lanes (e.g. Wukong) but once she hits her "critical mass" (some lvls in W, some resists) there isn't much that can push her out of lane.
Dno, I'd still say she's among the most solid top picks. =S
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On June 30 2012 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:
Hmm, the thing is, when Draven finally gets PD, does chasing after the "q" in a stand and fight situation worth the loss of an auto attack?
not much point into getting a PD on draven to be completely honest. He's one of the only carries i'd suggest no PD on.
I'd probably just suggest getting a faster last whisper, and using the slot for another blood thirster, which'll provide over double the DPS increase a PD will. Draven doesn't need more than 30% attack speed buff total (outside of blood rush) in order to maximize his Q's DPS increase. and once you hit that point, AD benefits you much more than a PD.
PD = waste of money on draven.
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im skeptical of that to say the least, trist gets 90% bonus as and phantom is still best on her, graves Q doesnt' benefit from attack speed and phantom is still right on him, etc, every ad carry has something that doesn't synergize with phantom and it's still the best combo with infinity edge there is
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On June 30 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
im skeptical of that to say the least, trist gets 90% bonus as and phantom is still best on her, graves Q doesnt' benefit from attack speed and phantom is still right on him, etc, every ad carry has something that doesn't synergize with phantom and it's still the best combo with infinity edge there is
His Q is just too good with AD, and if you're actually trying to catch axes, Aspd is wasted. It's not wasted on Trist because she uses the Aspd between Rapid Fires, and it actually works better with the crit on PD.
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On June 30 2012 14:22 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Top lane: Who is Irelia a solid pick against at the moment?
Shes fine vs anyone if you can make it out of early laning. Few matchups will give her hell still. Olaf, Udyr, Nasus(neither can really push the other out of lane without ganks imo, and free farm Nasus is terrifying), and Kennen early can zone her a bit. I'd also imagine Pantheon destroying her early as well.
Still doesn't change the fact that Irelia is one of the hardest scaling top laners in the game, not even mentioning her mobility/passive.
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On June 30 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
im skeptical of that to say the least, trist gets 90% bonus as and phantom is still best on her, graves Q doesnt' benefit from attack speed and phantom is still right on him, etc, every ad carry has something that doesn't synergize with phantom and it's still the best combo with infinity edge there is
It's completely true. you can do the math yourself if you want.
ideal catch rate is 80% of your attacks have a spinning axe while still getting out as many attacks as feasible (+80% attack speed total) the ideal catch rate decreases the more attack speed you get. if you attack 2.5 times a second, your Q's DPS increase is much lower than if you attack 1.4 times a second, this is because the axe has travel time. your Damage increase per attack (average) at a mediocre catch rate (2/3 of your attacks are spinning axes, that is you only catch/use 1 axe) is 56% from your Q. ideal catch rate makes the (average)damage increase 68%.
It's just way more efficient to stay at a lower attack speed and catch your axes than it is to ramp up your attack speed and waste half of it trying to catch axes.
Your ideal catch rate drops the more AS you have, since you start having to sacrifice attacks to catch axes. building attack speed directly decreases the effectiveness of your Q. and when you decrease the effectiveness of catching axes, your blood rush is also weakened considerably.
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On June 30 2012 12:44 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:27 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:04 Dusty wrote:On June 30 2012 11:26 sung_moon wrote:
Since he's been free week, finally got to play Draven. Who knew catching axes could be so fun? It is quite fun! Wish it wasn't so hard to do effectively in teamfights though :c My opinion is that catching axes in teamfights isn't 100% necessary. You just need to catch one. Hit Q/W, attack a target and make sure you catch the axe that comes out to refresh your W. You get ~5s of attackspeed steroid which makes you insanely strong compared to most AD carries. Obviously the key to maximizing your DPS is to catch all the axes but in a teamfight, that's not possible. Catch only the ones that you need to to keep your W up. If you catch the first two axes, you've generally won the teamfight since your steroid is greater than any other ad carry in the game's steroid except maybe vayne. Kogmaw has a word or three with you~ As much as I love kog, if he doesn't have blue lategame, his W is up for the same time as draven's steroid but cannot get refreshed and has a pretty massive cooldown. If kog can't win the teamfight in the 8 seconds his W is up, he has a much harder time living to see it up again than draven.
Cept Kog's range is nutters with W up, so he doesn't have to be right up on top of all of the enemy bruisers. And even if his w is down (which is only about half the time), he still has his ultimate which he can spam. Way easier to stay alive as Kog in a team fight provided you weren't manhandled during the laning phase.
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i pick irelia into nid, kennen, jarvan, j4, riven, vlad, sometimes malph
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On June 30 2012 15:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i pick irelia into nid, kennen, jarvan, j4, riven, vlad, sometimes malph
=S
I pick Jarv and J4 against relia.
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Phantom Dancer is too good to not get on draven. The axe doesn't fly farther from you if you move faster and the movespeed helps him catch even better than he does with just W+boots. With phantom dancer+W, it's pretty damn easy to auto+auto>move>auto>catch>repeat. Just because draven's Q is such an insane steroid doesn't mean he can't auto attack without his Q available.
I personally think of Q as a refresh for W in teamfights. Catching 1-2 so that you have W up continously or near so for the first bit of the teamfight is generally enough for your Q to come off cooldown again. As high as your damage is with two axes, having one up being used to refresh your W is more reliable in terms of damage from my experience.
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On June 30 2012 15:06 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 12:44 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:29 Shikyo wrote:On June 30 2012 12:27 Lmui wrote:On June 30 2012 12:04 Dusty wrote:On June 30 2012 11:26 sung_moon wrote:
Since he's been free week, finally got to play Draven. Who knew catching axes could be so fun? It is quite fun! Wish it wasn't so hard to do effectively in teamfights though :c My opinion is that catching axes in teamfights isn't 100% necessary. You just need to catch one. Hit Q/W, attack a target and make sure you catch the axe that comes out to refresh your W. You get ~5s of attackspeed steroid which makes you insanely strong compared to most AD carries. Obviously the key to maximizing your DPS is to catch all the axes but in a teamfight, that's not possible. Catch only the ones that you need to to keep your W up. If you catch the first two axes, you've generally won the teamfight since your steroid is greater than any other ad carry in the game's steroid except maybe vayne. Kogmaw has a word or three with you~ As much as I love kog, if he doesn't have blue lategame, his W is up for the same time as draven's steroid but cannot get refreshed and has a pretty massive cooldown. If kog can't win the teamfight in the 8 seconds his W is up, he has a much harder time living to see it up again than draven. Cept Kog's range is nutters with W up, so he doesn't have to be right up on top of all of the enemy bruisers. And even if his w is down (which is only about half the time), he still has his ultimate which he can spam. Way easier to stay alive as Kog in a team fight provided you weren't manhandled during the laning phase.
I'm not implying that Kog is in any way inferior to Draven. Kog just dissolves people as long as his W is up and still does pretty good damage if he has to when it's down.
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On June 30 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
im skeptical of that to say the least, trist gets 90% bonus as and phantom is still best on her, graves Q doesnt' benefit from attack speed and phantom is still right on him, etc, every ad carry has something that doesn't synergize with phantom and it's still the best combo with infinity edge there is
Is this true? I thought I remember someone doing the math and IE+BT ended up being more DPS than IE+PD on Trist.
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On June 30 2012 15:51 QuakerOats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 14:50 UniversalSnip wrote:
im skeptical of that to say the least, trist gets 90% bonus as and phantom is still best on her, graves Q doesnt' benefit from attack speed and phantom is still right on him, etc, every ad carry has something that doesn't synergize with phantom and it's still the best combo with infinity edge there is Is this true? I thought I remember someone doing the math and IE+BT ended up being more DPS than IE+PD on Trist.
Just ran the numbers.
A level 18 Trist with 2x dorans, zerks, BT+IE does ~800 dps with her steroid up. With 2x dorans, zerks, IE+PD, she does ~900 dps.
IE+PD is superior by about 11%.
The BT route does provide more survivability through lifesteal but you lose mobility for it. You also get more consistent damage with BT+IE rather than IE+PD meaning you don't rely on crits.
I'm not sure about draven since I can't find any resource on whether or not the bonus damage from Q can be affected by crit.
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Hm. I just called teamliquid HOME OF RATS AND KARMAS on phantomlords stream.
TL - A PLACE FOR OUTCASTS.
Or something like that. =S
PS: Jungle twitch so much fun. Global taunt champs ez #1.
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EPT
