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I'd pick Trist or Vayne + Alistar against Graves/Soraka.
Trist because she outranges Graves a lot after a few levels for free harass and can also put the anti-heal debuff on him if you try to burst him.
Vayne (with W max first) because due to range and tumble you can mostly always put three stacks on him if he tries to trade, and that will let you win the trade even if he has his passive + soraka's Q armor buff.
Cait or Ashe can outranges Graves, but Soraka will heal all your harass. If a farm lane is fine for you then they are also good picks.
(Kog'Maw can probably go through the armor buffs with his W magic damages, but I don't know how hard he wins or loses, I'm not playing him that much)
As support, I'd pick Alistar, still due to Graves's short range, it's quite easier to do his WQ combo on him. You also got some sustain with his E (you'll eat some buckshots, count on it).
If you picked Cait or Ashe, just pick Sona with W max first, and farm while being healed slighty worse than he is.
I'm no great player, somebody better can correct me if I'm wrong.
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United States9316 Posts
Vayne would be one of the worst choices vs graves. :s
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On May 04 2012 16:58 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Random question, since a couple of people I play normals with were discussing it and since my expertise is more mid/jungle than it is bottom: What bottom lanes do well against soraka/graves? Does anybody really stop it, or does it become a passive farmfest under the tower and you hope for ganks?
There is really no counter to Soraka+Graves. Trist, Vayne are terrible against it. Urgot+Taric/Alistar can kill with a gank post 6, Cait is kinda strong and can with clever play outfarm Graves with Janna/Taric. Corki is meh regardless of support but not terrible and should not fall behind in farm with a common support. There are not really any counter picks against it but you can come out with more farm / some zoning without a gank.
You will never outrade a good graves+soraka ever.
Ashe is really good and at 6 you can kill if they only have one summoner up.
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Thinking about Graves/Soraka a bit more, I think Kog'Maw would work decent if you had a support that could keep you safe. You out scale Graves and they're just gonna constantly push to your tower. As long as you can last hit well under tower and not die Kog seems decent. (edit: Kog doesn't beat Graves in lane btw. Just saying that with careful play you should still be able to farm with W and as long as you don't get harassed too badly under tower you should be able to CS just fine under tower too. You outscale Graves stupidly hard, so as long as you don't give up kills I think Kog can work in that lane. Just heavily depends on a support that can keep you safe, Alistar probably the best choice.)
The problem is so few ADs have a good lane phase against Graves and then when you give him infinite mana to just constantly push it makes it an annoying ass lane. Caitlyn is about the only AD that I know 100% for sure can beat Graves in lane. Sivir might as well, idk, she's like the only AD I don't play.
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If you play aggressive from the start with Ashe Janna you can stalemate and even score kills down the line.
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Corki/Leona and Corki/Lulu have very realistic kill potential on graves/soraka post 6, provided Corki is running ignite.(Alistar might work too, but I don't have much experience running corki/ali)
In addition, at like lvl 3 you can win in a fight, though the window is pretty small (leona has all her skills, corki has lvl 2 q).
The main problem with running it vs graves/soraka is that you have your ONE shot to kill them. You miss a skill shot or 2, they get away, they will heal and push you out of lane.
I wouldn't recommend running it unless your confident with corki/leona/lulu, because the lane can be lost very easily just by taking too much harass.
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On May 04 2012 17:46 napo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:23 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
can i get some clarification on those hacks.
1. do they only reveal 'known' information? like, will the ward placement only be shown if you actually saw the ward being placed?
2. do you have a source on the okaying from tencent?
3. are they allowed in tournaments?
thanks! We had a discussion about it yesterday in LP on EUW. Managed to figure out that when you use a spell or place a ward some kind of global sound is emitted. The 3rd party program detects this and shows on the map where the ward was placed/where the spell was used. It also has timers for buffs, but only for the ones that you had vision of getting killed. Calling auto ss/re, showing range of enemy champs/towers, infinite zoom out are also some of it's features. And God knows what else. Some pics found with a simple search on google: ![[image loading]](http://www7.pic-upload.de/18.10.11/48rttqhux3y1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2325/zynox6.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/2310/zynox7.jpg)
oh right i think moonbear mentioned that before. that wards placements are 'global' variables due to needing to be able to hear wards placed through fog. the 'hack' probably exploits that. if that's the case i'm doubtful that tencent actually okay-ed it.
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United States9316 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:16 Southlight wrote:
If you play aggressive from the start with Ashe Janna you can stalemate and even score kills down the line.
Wait wasn't the game we played together ashe janna vs graves soraka? lol
I thought the others were just really bad.
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On May 04 2012 18:42 Praetorial wrote:
VARUS IS LIVE
On what server? He's not live on west. Not live on NA either.
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Theoretically speaking, shouldn't Sivir fare somewhat well against Graves? Her spellshield blocks core parts of Graves's burst (Q and R).
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It's not live on NA either, he probably just saw a hotfix patch (probably related to that masteries exploit) and assumed it was Varus. (Unless maybe he's talking about CH or KR)
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On May 04 2012 18:46 Inschato wrote:
It's not live on NA either, he probably just saw a hotfix patch (probably related to that masteries exploit) and assumed it was Varus. (Unless maybe he's talking about CH or KR)
Yeah, I saw the hotfix and thought it was Varus.
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On May 04 2012 18:35 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:46 napo wrote:On May 04 2012 14:23 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
can i get some clarification on those hacks.
1. do they only reveal 'known' information? like, will the ward placement only be shown if you actually saw the ward being placed?
2. do you have a source on the okaying from tencent?
3. are they allowed in tournaments?
thanks! We had a discussion about it yesterday in LP on EUW. Managed to figure out that when you use a spell or place a ward some kind of global sound is emitted. The 3rd party program detects this and shows on the map where the ward was placed/where the spell was used. It also has timers for buffs, but only for the ones that you had vision of getting killed. Calling auto ss/re, showing range of enemy champs/towers, infinite zoom out are also some of it's features. And God knows what else. Some pics found with a simple search on google: oh right i think moonbear mentioned that before. that wards placements are 'global' variables due to needing to be able to hear wards placed through fog. the 'hack' probably exploits that. if that's the case i'm doubtful that tencent actually okay-ed it.
Don't know what tencent is, but its sure these things aren't legal as you get information, what you shouldn't be able to get.
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Got a stomp botlane, check the players post game, one was below 1250 with 4 victories, and the opposing AD 1360 with 150+ victories. The discrepancy is quite huge, isn't the matchmaking supposed to put you only against other starters when you're one?
Or maybe it was a duo. I was our first pick with only 1280 Elo, quite a gap there too.
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Anyone else listening to motorpsycho after reading the title of summoner showcase 77?
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On May 04 2012 18:45 Apex wrote:
Theoretically speaking, shouldn't Sivir fare somewhat well against Graves? Her spellshield blocks core parts of Graves's burst (Q and R).
Yes her E works on both Graves' Q and R but the problem lies in that her E is up every 22 seconds at level 1 and returns 75 mana overall assuming you hit it correctly whereas graves has buckshot up every 12 seconds, decreasing by 1 second per point in it. At best you're blocking 1/2 of his Q's and if he directs his Q's towards clearing the wave sivir is going to struggle sooner or later regardless if graves has a soraka support since if you don't want to last hit at tower on sivir, you have to blow a huge chunk of your mana bar with Q+W.
On lanes that do well/beat graves/soraka.
Nunu/Kogmaw work extremely well since bb and kogmaw's q being an autoattack reset allows kogmaw to have a ridiculously easy time at farming under tower. The other thing is with level 2 W or higher, if graves comes into tower range to shoot the tower, kogmaw can E under graves, activate W and right click graves until he reaches the bush. At best graves can get an autoattack buckshot on you in exchange for losing 1/3 to 1/2 of his health bar depending on when the soraka heal comes in, an amount that even soraka can't really heal up too easily. Your objective is to scare him into turning the lane into a farmfest with the lane frozen in the middle since that benefits kogmaw far more than it does graves.
More standard kill lanes such as leona corki can stop graves from being able to buckshot the wave and get enough autoattacks off to push that hard safely. At level 3, if leona hits a zenith blade, the combined burst from corki/leona should be able to 100-0 soraka or take off 80% of graves' health. both of which allow you to zone them.
Tristana is a rather poor choice against graves soraka since her E makes last hitting under tower a difficult proposition at best. You'll get the first one or two creeps but then the AoE will screw iwth your last hitting for every other creep.
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On May 04 2012 19:25 Alaric wrote:
Got a stomp botlane, check the players post game, one was below 1250 with 4 victories, and the opposing AD 1360 with 150+ victories. The discrepancy is quite huge, isn't the matchmaking supposed to put you only against other starters when you're one?
Or maybe it was a duo. I was our first pick with only 1280 Elo, quite a gap there too.
I've played a lot of people with several hundred ranked games right from my own start in ranked. I've played like 1500 normals before though.
From my feel i'd say a lot of others on my and the opponent teams were pretty new to the game in general.
Now i'm mid 1400s and its getting somewhat balanced. people generally seem to know what they're doing, and have runes/masteries for the job etc.
When i duo with someone in the 1200s, i noticed the enemy team often had 1 guy whos rating wasn't shown too.
Matchmakings not always coming up with fair teams, but i'm pretty sure it's trying.
On the soraka/graves lane... if you play well you can do fine with vayne, just in terms of farming. Makes me think any other AD shouldn't have a problem.
Last time i played it i kept CS within 10 until 110/20ish, while being under tower like 90% of the time. Never got a gank, eventually just got towerdove from full hp by their mid + tanky jungle who were ahead. I feel that soraka/graves just puts you in a spot where you're very reliant on either your jungler (lane always pushed) or mid doing well and helping you. Either you beat them up early while soraka is weak or you can't do anything in lane without them failing. Like Graves missing q/r etc.
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Let it be possible to immediately see who's playing in spec mode instead of constant rotation.
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EPT
