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So, after starting to play AD carry again I see supports very differently than I did when I only played support, but not AD carry.
Is it just me (or low elo) or is Soraka still a godly choice for bot? I'm sure Janna is great too, but at least at low elo I routinely find that I do much better in lane (not necessarily in team fights) if I lane with Soraka.
I play Corki and like to harrass every time they are in range, so I go for AA+Q+AA when they try to CS. Soraka provides both the heal and armor and (almost more importantly for me) the mana needed to outtrade the other lane and eventually force them back or to lose lots of cs.
Also, thanks to the ridiculous sustain I get games where I get a BF sword on my first back, IE on my second, and PD on my third trip back. I realize smaller items make my mid-game stronger, but I was already zoning the opponent hard anyway, and once I got the big items I'd completely deny CS (unless they're at their tower) and hold the lane 1v2 while support can roam.
What is the best support pick against a lane with Soraka?
It feels like the more aggressive non-sustain supports (Nunu, Lulu) are a waste because Soraka just heals back everything anyway. The only thing I could see working well is another passive lane (Janna/Ali) or hard burst lanes like Voli/Leona where you burst so hard that they can't risk trades (because Soraka will lose in a straight 2v2 bot fight).
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Hecarim's abilities look cool on paper. AoE damage, aoe damage + heal, charge stun.
If the jungle clears that slowly I'm very sad. Oh well, I'll wait and play him when he's free soon.
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On April 19 2012 02:34 lurked wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:28 Bladeorade wrote:On April 19 2012 02:20 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 02:15 Soloside wrote:On April 19 2012 02:14 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 01:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you have 40% CDR on Hekarim, does the Q cooldown go down to 0.4seconds...? unless there is some bug that I am unaware of...no. cooldown on his q is 4 seconds all the time, so with 40% CDR it would go down to 2.4 seconds doesn't using Q multi times lower the cd? my mistake, i forgot about the stacks. at max stacks (2) the base cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds from 4 to 2. then with the 40% CDR it would go down to 1.2 CD No. 4x.4 = 1.6 4-1.6 =2.4 2.4-2 = .4 No. 4 - 2 = 2 2x.4 = .8 2-.8 = 1.2 CDR is always the last step. (...)
Zilean?
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On April 19 2012 03:02 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:32 JackDino wrote:On April 19 2012 02:19 gtrsrs wrote:
so, hecarim is completely trash
no damage whatsoever and as far as i see, his ult is buggy as hell. and bad passive.
yikes, totally wasted 30 minutes and 6300 IP playing him for the first and last time. gotta stop buying champs on day 1 30mins 1 game, champ completely discovered and all secrets learned. Sure you dislike him, but don't to around spouting BS like that after just 1 game. Then again, anyone who is retarded enough to take advice like that and not buy the champ kind of deserves it I guess. sorry, what part of my post was BS? was i not pressing Q hard enough and hecarim actually does 100% damage to minions when you use it? are his mana costs halved if you wish it hard enough? nothing in my post is wrong, he's simply not a good jungler. his Q damage is like 1/3 of skarner's with no utility. his W sucks your mana up like a shake through a straw. his E is really buggy in how it knocks people back, and then follows it up by stunning you as well for a good 0.75-1.25 seconds so you can't even attack them. the ult does not work as intended, the fear does not work how phreak showed it to, if it even procs at all. the passive gives an un-noticeable AD boost. i dislike him because he's bad
you've never had a champ that you played once, didn't like so you stopped playing them, and then picked them up much later on? playing one game with the character means that you only tried one build. you only tried one set of runes, one set of masteries. and you only played with one specific team comp and against one specific team comp.
it took me 10-15 games with Mundo to not suck. I lost the majority of those games and got yelled at for being a noob by my teamates. I could have switched back to a champ that I was good with, but i stuck with it because I knew I could make it work.
not liking a champ is ok, if you said he just didn't fit your playstyle or something like that. but saying that you "dislike him because he's bad" is a bit close-minded after only one game.
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On April 19 2012 03:12 ishboh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:02 gtrsrs wrote:On April 19 2012 02:32 JackDino wrote:On April 19 2012 02:19 gtrsrs wrote:
so, hecarim is completely trash
no damage whatsoever and as far as i see, his ult is buggy as hell. and bad passive.
yikes, totally wasted 30 minutes and 6300 IP playing him for the first and last time. gotta stop buying champs on day 1 30mins 1 game, champ completely discovered and all secrets learned. Sure you dislike him, but don't to around spouting BS like that after just 1 game. Then again, anyone who is retarded enough to take advice like that and not buy the champ kind of deserves it I guess. sorry, what part of my post was BS? was i not pressing Q hard enough and hecarim actually does 100% damage to minions when you use it? are his mana costs halved if you wish it hard enough? nothing in my post is wrong, he's simply not a good jungler. his Q damage is like 1/3 of skarner's with no utility. his W sucks your mana up like a shake through a straw. his E is really buggy in how it knocks people back, and then follows it up by stunning you as well for a good 0.75-1.25 seconds so you can't even attack them. the ult does not work as intended, the fear does not work how phreak showed it to, if it even procs at all. the passive gives an un-noticeable AD boost. i dislike him because he's bad you've never had a champ that you played once, didn't like so you stopped playing them, and then picked them up much later on? playing one game with the character means that you only tried one build. you only tried one set of runes, one set of masteries. and you only played with one specific team comp and against one specific team comp. it took me 10-15 games with Mundo to not suck. I lost the majority of those games and got yelled at for being a noob by my teamates. I could have switched back to a champ that I was good with, but i stuck with it because I knew I could make it work. not liking a champ is ok, if you said he just didn't fit your playstyle or something like that. but saying that you "dislike him because he's bad" is a bit close-minded after only one game.
It's not a matter of teamcomp or who you are playing against, Hecarim is just legitimately bad at clearing jungle no matter what your runes or masteries are because of the reasons the music dinosaur stated.
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On April 19 2012 03:12 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:34 lurked wrote:On April 19 2012 02:28 Bladeorade wrote:On April 19 2012 02:20 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 02:15 Soloside wrote:On April 19 2012 02:14 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 01:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you have 40% CDR on Hekarim, does the Q cooldown go down to 0.4seconds...? unless there is some bug that I am unaware of...no. cooldown on his q is 4 seconds all the time, so with 40% CDR it would go down to 2.4 seconds doesn't using Q multi times lower the cd? my mistake, i forgot about the stacks. at max stacks (2) the base cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds from 4 to 2. then with the 40% CDR it would go down to 1.2 CD No. 4x.4 = 1.6 4-1.6 =2.4 2.4-2 = .4 No. 4 - 2 = 2 2x.4 = .8 2-.8 = 1.2 CDR is always the last step. (...) Zilean?
Zilean what?
Zilean's skill isn't 'CDR on next skill'... It reduces all the current cooldowns. The CDR has already been applied when he first casted his spells.
Am I missing something? Is there a hidden CDR thing on Zilean I'm not aware of?
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You're missing nothing. Hecarim's Q CDR mechanic is like no other mechanic we've seen. It functions differently than Ryze, Ezreal, Zilean, and Xin's CD reducing mechanics.
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On April 19 2012 03:12 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:34 lurked wrote:On April 19 2012 02:28 Bladeorade wrote:On April 19 2012 02:20 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 02:15 Soloside wrote:On April 19 2012 02:14 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 01:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you have 40% CDR on Hekarim, does the Q cooldown go down to 0.4seconds...? unless there is some bug that I am unaware of...no. cooldown on his q is 4 seconds all the time, so with 40% CDR it would go down to 2.4 seconds doesn't using Q multi times lower the cd? my mistake, i forgot about the stacks. at max stacks (2) the base cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds from 4 to 2. then with the 40% CDR it would go down to 1.2 CD No. 4x.4 = 1.6 4-1.6 =2.4 2.4-2 = .4 No. 4 - 2 = 2 2x.4 = .8 2-.8 = 1.2 CDR is always the last step. (...) Zilean?
Zilean, Amumu, Ezreal, Skarner, Ryze reduce their cooldowns with a triggered, instant effect. Heracrim's CDR is "persistent". Persistent comes before normal CDR, instant comes after. Probably.
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On April 19 2012 02:29 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:28 Glaceau wrote:
new patch so unrefined feels like shit playing it ? What do you mean?
like at ranked champ select, instead of like being able to tell when people lock their champions, it looked like when it was unlocked before, cant tell any difference. the client just feels unresponsive and weird.
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I'm just sad that you can't do troll shit like E-ing into an enemy and flashing just before hitting him to pull in the opposite direction to your team. Oh yah and "missed" the fear twice just as guitar said it's pretty buggy.
Oh, and his 50% reduction damage to minions is just horrible. Not to mention his W at lvl 1 (which you should keep until level freaking 8) makes full use of his 60 health regen IF he magically does six fucking hundred damage within a span of 4 seconds (smite only way to make use of it). Oh and the AOE on W is horrendously low for teamfight capability. lolollolo All I see is a champion that tries too hard to be special but just falls apart. Scaling sucks penis as well. H4h4h4h4
Edit: Oh a grand total of one second fear on an ultimate skill. Wooo Hooo
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On April 19 2012 03:19 lurked wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:12 Kaniol wrote:On April 19 2012 02:34 lurked wrote:On April 19 2012 02:28 Bladeorade wrote:On April 19 2012 02:20 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 02:15 Soloside wrote:On April 19 2012 02:14 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 01:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you have 40% CDR on Hekarim, does the Q cooldown go down to 0.4seconds...? unless there is some bug that I am unaware of...no. cooldown on his q is 4 seconds all the time, so with 40% CDR it would go down to 2.4 seconds doesn't using Q multi times lower the cd? my mistake, i forgot about the stacks. at max stacks (2) the base cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds from 4 to 2. then with the 40% CDR it would go down to 1.2 CD No. 4x.4 = 1.6 4-1.6 =2.4 2.4-2 = .4 No. 4 - 2 = 2 2x.4 = .8 2-.8 = 1.2 CDR is always the last step. (...) Zilean? Zilean what? Zilean's skill isn't 'CDR on next skill'... It reduces all the current cooldowns. The CDR has already been applied when he first casted his spells. Am I missing something? Is there a hidden CDR thing on Zilean I'm not aware of?
For Zilean CDR is NOT the last step.
On April 19 2012 03:20 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:12 Kaniol wrote:On April 19 2012 02:34 lurked wrote:On April 19 2012 02:28 Bladeorade wrote:On April 19 2012 02:20 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 02:15 Soloside wrote:On April 19 2012 02:14 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 01:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
When you have 40% CDR on Hekarim, does the Q cooldown go down to 0.4seconds...? unless there is some bug that I am unaware of...no. cooldown on his q is 4 seconds all the time, so with 40% CDR it would go down to 2.4 seconds doesn't using Q multi times lower the cd? my mistake, i forgot about the stacks. at max stacks (2) the base cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds from 4 to 2. then with the 40% CDR it would go down to 1.2 CD No. 4x.4 = 1.6 4-1.6 =2.4 2.4-2 = .4 No. 4 - 2 = 2 2x.4 = .8 2-.8 = 1.2 CDR is always the last step. (...) Zilean? Zilean, Amumu, Ezreal, Skarner, Ryze reduce their cooldowns with a triggered, instant effect. Heracrim's CDR is "persistent". Persistent comes before normal CDR, instant comes after. Probably.
Yep, that would be my guess as well 
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Who exactly is Cadburry and Sooner? They get really high viewer numbers but their Elos are shit. Are they from some other game maybe? Just always wondered this.
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with junglers it's fairly easy to determine how good they are by comparing their clear speeds and ganking ability against that of other junglers. hecarim has a slow, mana dependent clear without god-like rammus/shaco level ganks to make up for it.
basically he's skarner with less damage and longer cooldowns, but while still having the serious mana issues.
maybe his ganks will end up being better than i remember, but i felt the amount of displacement you get from his E and R was rather underwhelming.
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On April 19 2012 03:40 chalice wrote:
with junglers it's fairly easy to determine how good they are by comparing their clear speeds and ganking ability against that of other junglers. hecarim has a slow, mana dependent clear without god-like rammus/shaco level ganks to make up for it.
basically he's skarner with less damage and longer cooldowns, but while still having the serious mana issues.
maybe his ganks will end up being better than i remember, but i felt the amount of displacement you get from his E and R was rather underwhelming.
Or he might just be a laner. Have you tried all his matchups yet?
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On April 19 2012 03:22 Glaceau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:29 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 19 2012 02:28 Glaceau wrote:
new patch so unrefined feels like shit playing it ? What do you mean? like at ranked champ select, instead of like being able to tell when people lock their champions, it looked like when it was unlocked before, cant tell any difference. the client just feels unresponsive and weird.
for this you just have to get used to looking for the "Picking" text next to the champion portrait, it will obv no longer be their after they lock in.
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So should we buy Hecarim right now or wait for the future buffs/nerfs to come about?
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i hate how the next champ got revealed so early. I don't give a damn about horse guy but i want the gay elf guy, and now I have to wait for 2-3 weeks to get him.
usually i just expect the new champ to suck ass so I'm not interested in it.
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On April 19 2012 03:18 Seiuchi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:12 ishboh wrote:On April 19 2012 03:02 gtrsrs wrote:On April 19 2012 02:32 JackDino wrote:On April 19 2012 02:19 gtrsrs wrote:
so, hecarim is completely trash
no damage whatsoever and as far as i see, his ult is buggy as hell. and bad passive.
yikes, totally wasted 30 minutes and 6300 IP playing him for the first and last time. gotta stop buying champs on day 1 30mins 1 game, champ completely discovered and all secrets learned. Sure you dislike him, but don't to around spouting BS like that after just 1 game. Then again, anyone who is retarded enough to take advice like that and not buy the champ kind of deserves it I guess. sorry, what part of my post was BS? was i not pressing Q hard enough and hecarim actually does 100% damage to minions when you use it? are his mana costs halved if you wish it hard enough? nothing in my post is wrong, he's simply not a good jungler. his Q damage is like 1/3 of skarner's with no utility. his W sucks your mana up like a shake through a straw. his E is really buggy in how it knocks people back, and then follows it up by stunning you as well for a good 0.75-1.25 seconds so you can't even attack them. the ult does not work as intended, the fear does not work how phreak showed it to, if it even procs at all. the passive gives an un-noticeable AD boost. i dislike him because he's bad you've never had a champ that you played once, didn't like so you stopped playing them, and then picked them up much later on? playing one game with the character means that you only tried one build. you only tried one set of runes, one set of masteries. and you only played with one specific team comp and against one specific team comp. it took me 10-15 games with Mundo to not suck. I lost the majority of those games and got yelled at for being a noob by my teamates. I could have switched back to a champ that I was good with, but i stuck with it because I knew I could make it work. not liking a champ is ok, if you said he just didn't fit your playstyle or something like that. but saying that you "dislike him because he's bad" is a bit close-minded after only one game. It's not a matter of teamcomp or who you are playing against, Hecarim is just legitimately bad at clearing jungle no matter what your runes or masteries are because of the reasons the music dinosaur stated.
To elaborate:
Skarner's Q, when charged, does 1.7-2.0 times the damage of Hecarim's Q per cast on minions/monsters before AD and AP are factored in. At the same time both abilities have very similar mana costs, making it prohibitive for Hecarim to use Q for clearing the jungle.
I don't think it's fully accurate to highlight Hecarim's W as a mana drain. Hecarim's W costs less than Nautilus W until rank 5, but you don't read about Nautilus having horrific mana problems. The real issue is that neither Hecarim's Q nor his W are sufficient in and of themselves for clearing the jungle, so you end up feeling as though one or the other is a mana drain.
I haven't experienced gtrsrs' problems with E, but I've wondered if the motivation behind Hecarim having no unit collision was to sweep some issues under the rug.
As of yet I think there's still some room to explore Hecarim as a jungler, but he seems far more suited for top or midlane.
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On April 19 2012 03:43 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:40 chalice wrote:
with junglers it's fairly easy to determine how good they are by comparing their clear speeds and ganking ability against that of other junglers. hecarim has a slow, mana dependent clear without god-like rammus/shaco level ganks to make up for it.
basically he's skarner with less damage and longer cooldowns, but while still having the serious mana issues.
maybe his ganks will end up being better than i remember, but i felt the amount of displacement you get from his E and R was rather underwhelming. Or he might just be a laner. Have you tried all his matchups yet?
what part of his kit looks like it lends itself to coming out ahead in trades? he's got weak AOEs that push the lane involuntarily but aren't strong enough to push and counter jungle like a shyvana, his only non-ult cc is useless both as a disengage or to support ganks without flashing or ulting first, and really he just doesn't do that much damage.
spamming Q for dps will leave you mana starved and so will attempting to get any meaningful sustain out of W. with his abilities being split 50/50 ap and ad his scaling and itemization leaves a lot to be desired. even tri-force, the perfect item for him, has its passive proc gimped because he has garbage base AD scaling to make up for his MS > AD passive.
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EPT
