EPTHow many would turn rager you see on every stream? :D
What if BW pro's switched to LoL? - Page 2
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
How many would turn rager you see on every stream? :D | ||
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hunall
United States11 Posts
Skillwise I think they would all hit plat easy but if they could work effectivly in a teeam enviroment, and deal with it being a new game every other tuesday thats less clear. | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
The skill sets themselves at a high level are very different in my opinion. The intense micro skills will help, but without knowing all the abilities, their interactions and what damage to expect from whom, it's hard to make a good plan, no matter how well you can execute it. | ||
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IAMFAPMAN
60 Posts
makes perfect sense. €: all my friends are playing lol .. and i dont hate it at all .. but this wont get into my head | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23461 Posts
On March 30 2012 18:16 Shikyo wrote: I don't think that the skillsets are perfectly comparable... They might have 300-400 APM but they couldn't utilize most of it. They could get every single lasthit but people get close to that anyway. Only a handful of the top BW players are actually strategic masterminds, many of the midtier and even semi-top tier pros are mostly mechanical and the strategy is very basic and nothing special. This basically means that, in my opinion, if they were to switch and dominate it would mainly be because of their work ethic and knowledge on how to improve. (Not talking about Flash/JD and co. who are geniuses) You know absolutely nothing about pro brood war if you think the guys with 300-400 APM aren't fucking geniuses at starcraft and the basics in macro in micro. (I'm talking decision making, zerg worker production, t/p factory timing and expansion timing etc) Saying "I was only D in BW because my apm was low" is like saying "I'm 1200 in LoL because my team is bad". It's just a denial of your actual skill. I think my mechanics in BW were actually quite good when I played a lot in iccup, at least relative to my skill, but I started playing late and mostly just copied build orders without true understanding of the what's behind them. My "strategy" was the broad strokes like unit comps and things more than real strategy which is a lot more subtle and based on timing and lots of small decisions piled together (a lot like LoL). The bottom tier pros of BW switched to sc2 and dominated with less time to play. The reason is because they understand elements of the game fundementally and learn them very quickly. SC2 doesn't need that much "APM" but they did really well for a reason. The reason their "strategy" is basic is because they haven't reached the level where they are making all these tiny decisions correctly with basic strategies, and much much harder with complicating and eccentric build orders. There is a certain learning curve to LoL because of the amount of champions and basic concepts but coming from the average joe 1200 to 2200 is not going to be overly difficult for any progamer. You won't find progamers stuck in "elo hell" | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On March 30 2012 18:20 daemir wrote: I'd be really interested to hear how these solo super stars would change when suddenly put into a team environment where the outcome of the match wouldn't depends solely on their 18 hour practiced solo mechanics. How many would turn rager you see on every stream? :D Probably not one since when you rage, you can't improve. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23461 Posts
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
On March 30 2012 18:30 IAMFAPMAN wrote: so they switch from a game that needs 300-400 apm, extreme multitasking, ect. to a casual comic dota clone? makes perfect sense. €: all my friends are playing lol .. and i dont hate it at all .. but this wont get into my head That has nothing to do with it. If they like playing the game and there is money involved why would they not switch over? Like I don't really care, just as long as LoL continues to grow. And that BW stays alive as long as possible and if not, then I hope atleast the old BW pros who I loved to watch, get some where. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 30 2012 18:33 Slayer91 wrote: You know absolutely nothing about pro brood war if you think the guys with 300-400 APM aren't fucking geniuses at starcraft and the basics in macro in micro. (I'm talking decision making, zerg worker production, t/p factory timing and expansion timing etc) Saying "I was only D in BW because my apm was low" is like saying "I'm 1200 in LoL because my team is bad". It's just a denial of your actual skill. I think my mechanics in BW were actually quite good when I played a lot in iccup, at least relative to my skill, but I started playing late and mostly just copied build orders without true understanding of the what's behind them. My "strategy" was the broad strokes like unit comps and things more than real strategy which is a lot more subtle and based on timing and lots of small decisions piled together (a lot like LoL). The bottom tier pros of BW switched to sc2 and dominated with less time to play. The reason is because they understand elements of the game fundementally and learn them very quickly. SC2 doesn't need that much "APM" but they did really well for a reason. The reason their "strategy" is basic is because they haven't reached the level where they are making all these tiny decisions correctly with basic strategies, and much much harder with complicating and eccentric build orders. There is a certain learning curve to LoL because of the amount of champions and basic concepts but coming from the average joe 1200 to 2200 is not going to be overly difficult for any progamer. You won't find progamers stuck in "elo hell" Well I was like C+ with 250+ APM but yeah, I think that the skill up to a certain point is mostly mechanical. I've followed pro brood war for years just for the record. Even A-class players who appear in the proleague often and are considered very good still make poor strategic decisions all the time(Bad engagements, wrong unit compositions despite scouting the opponent, etc.). It's even been said that the korean way to practice brood war is very heavily mechanics-based, where they indeed grind their builds vs the opponent's builds and learn that way. That also is in my opinion clearly the most effective way to learn Brood War. The ex-SCBW pros who are doing well in SC2 actually are mostly doing it mechanically. Obviously the game "requires" as much APM as you can possibly utilize. There's no cap in that game either, although I'd say that in Brood War it's more essential. APM doesn't equal mechanical skill, though, and they still couldn't utilize most of it in LoL. For example IM_MVP is mostly a mechanical players. He has some timing attacks at times but those are pretty common builds that your average players could practice and are used just fine. He wins mostly with mechanics and with multitasking. His decisionmaking is decent but it's not spectacular, his selling point is mostly the mechanics. There's numerous players like that in SC2, however less so than in SCBW. I don't ever recall saying that SCBW pros wouldn't do well in LoL so I really don't get your hostility? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23461 Posts
I followed pro brood war for years also, did I know shit about pro brood war? Fuck no. Jaedong gets lots of units, oov gets lots of units, some people get less units? Why? Fuck knows. This guy is a "macro player" so he gets more units. If you were C+ with 250 or whatever apm it actually points more to the fact that you don't have a very full understanding of the game. Of course there was this guy ("exalted" I think?) who had liek 400 apm and I beat him with infested terrans and my ZvT wasn't even that good at the time. So he was just spamming but didnt necessarily have "good macro" even if he kept his barracks pumping. I'm not saying I had a good understanding the game either, all I remember is my brain actually worked out things when I was playing sc2 for the first time and I realized a bunch of shit about how economy works and it would have helped enourmously back in my BW days. | ||
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Blurio
Germany288 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/469/flash7template.jpg){kind=icon} What do you mean, you only control one of those? | ||
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
On March 30 2012 18:30 IAMFAPMAN wrote: so they switch from a game that needs 300-400 apm, extreme multitasking, ect. to a casual comic dota clone? makes perfect sense. €: all my friends are playing lol .. and i dont hate it at all .. but this wont get into my head Why would they not switch if the money was good and they enjoy it? Regardless of what people say about how easy LoL is, its still damn fun to play. If you can have a ton of fun, and earn money, why wouldn't they? I agree with most of whats been said so far about the skill set from BW not really translating over to LoL, but as I mentioned we'd never be able to know for sure unless someone did it. I know I'm not a Korean BW pro, but if I was, considering the growth of LoL and the relatively lacklustre reception for SC2 in Korea, I think LoL would look like a pretty attractive option right now. Thanks for humouring me guys. I just think its a potentially interesting concept. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On March 30 2012 19:33 Blurio wrote: What do you mean, you only control one of those? I found one in that thread: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WSlDn.jpg) He will singlehandedly beat an entire team! | ||
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
Switching to unrelated games doesnt necessirily mean transitioning skills, fatality playing CS was pretty mediocre, and he was helluva talented... Flash would suck at LoL for a long time and become good player after some time compared to Flash would be good SC2 player and become one of the best/best SC2 player in short time. Compare. Hiya was pretty upset about his performance in SC2 without training, and he dropped the idea of switching after forgg beat him offracing zerg. Considering forgg was weaker at the point of the switch in BW and he beat Hiya WHILE offracing. ill correct myself here, even if Flash was a perfect, ideal LoL player, his value would be to huge compared to buying 2 or 3 good players. The crux of team play is, no matter how good you are unless other players are top notch aswell. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
BW is mechanical skill and muscle memory 100% - the decision making comes much later. In LoL the decision making comes during the ban/pick page. M5 didn't win IEM because they were quicker/faster/more practiced than the other teams; they won because their strategy was dam good. And unlike BW there's not enough mechanical skill in the game to allow a team to come back from a losing strategy. If you face Jaedong in a game and you fluke the most ridiculous build order win ever... you'll still lose the game. He'll kill you with drone micro. In LoL games can be over before they start. I would pit a old school team led bySlayers Boxer against ANY combination of recent OSL/MSL top4 players. I reckon the Boxer team would win because he's a great leader and he has great strategic depth. That is more important in LoL than ridiculous multi-tasking. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
BW guys tended to create a strategy and practice it till it was second nature. You can do that with playing certain champions, but every game is going to require you to iterate more than the average BW game, not to mention the fact that you're working with other people, who can be unpredictable despite how many times you've played with them. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
Yes, people like flash, jaedong, and bisu are great players. But a game like LoL is a lot different than RTS. Also RTS is a single player game, where there is no teamwork, and randomly throwing 5 amazing players on a team doesn't make it the best team. | ||
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