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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 14 2012 12:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 14 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
Those analogies aren't all that good because the LoL scene isn't anywhere near as developed as it's going to be. No one can be at the pinnacle of achievement in both games, but nothing that any LoL team is accomplishing right now is remotely close to the pinnacle of achievement. MJ and Lebron miss shots. They lose games. They arent at the pinacle of achievement of basketball either. They are just 2 of the best we have seen up to this point. Its a perfectly fair analogy to draw- especially when you consider that someone would laugh at you if you suggested that Wilt would be able to score 100 points in the NBA today. Meh. My point still stands. As I'm said, I'm not even arguing that any amount of skill transfers over from DotA to LoL, but that Chinese DotA and Korean Starcraft represent the two most stable and professional environments for improving at their respective games--the rate at which both made advancements in their respective games absolutely dwarfed their Western competition. And unlike Korean Starcraft, Chinese DotA is already playing a team game.
Why would chinese dota switch to LoL when there is tons of money in Dota still. If anything they will switch to Dota 2 once the optimized lan client is out and the hero pool is complete. Or are you talking about ex chinese pro's? I still don't see why china would make a big switch.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:55 Esoterikk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:53 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 14 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
Those analogies aren't all that good because the LoL scene isn't anywhere near as developed as it's going to be. No one can be at the pinnacle of achievement in both games, but nothing that any LoL team is accomplishing right now is remotely close to the pinnacle of achievement. MJ and Lebron miss shots. They lose games. They arent at the pinacle of achievement of basketball either. They are just 2 of the best we have seen up to this point. Its a perfectly fair analogy to draw- especially when you consider that someone would laugh at you if you suggested that Wilt would be able to score 100 points in the NBA today. Meh. My point still stands. As I'm said, I'm not even arguing that any amount of skill transfers over from DotA to LoL, but that Chinese DotA and Korean Starcraft represent the two most stable and professional environments for improving at their respective games--the rate at which both made advancements in their respective games absolutely dwarfed their Western competition. And unlike Korean Starcraft, Chinese DotA is already playing a team game. Why would chinese dota switch to LoL when there is tons of money in Dota still. If anything they will switch to Dota 2 once the optimized lan client is out and the hero pool is complete. Or are you talking about ex chinese pro's? I still don't see why china would make a big switch.
The same reason that second-tier BW pros switched to SC2--there's technically a lot of money in the scene, but iG, LGD, DK, WE, and Panda outclass their competition by so much that if the amount of money in competitive LoL catches up, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the second-tier teams or players switching over.
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On March 14 2012 12:51 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:50 0123456789 wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 14 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
Those analogies aren't all that good because the LoL scene isn't anywhere near as developed as it's going to be. No one can be at the pinnacle of achievement in both games, but nothing that any LoL team is accomplishing right now is remotely close to the pinnacle of achievement. MJ and Lebron miss shots. They lose games. They arent at the pinacle of achievement of basketball either. They are just 2 of the best we have seen up to this point. Its a perfectly fair analogy to draw- especially when you consider that someone would laugh at you if you suggested that Wilt would be able to score 100 points in the NBA today. This is a bad analogy because you replaced Kobe with Lebron. I hate Kobe.
Kobe also said in an interview about the fast-growing game LoL that Taric was the best character in the game.
:D
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On March 14 2012 12:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:55 Esoterikk wrote:On March 14 2012 12:53 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 14 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
Those analogies aren't all that good because the LoL scene isn't anywhere near as developed as it's going to be. No one can be at the pinnacle of achievement in both games, but nothing that any LoL team is accomplishing right now is remotely close to the pinnacle of achievement. MJ and Lebron miss shots. They lose games. They arent at the pinacle of achievement of basketball either. They are just 2 of the best we have seen up to this point. Its a perfectly fair analogy to draw- especially when you consider that someone would laugh at you if you suggested that Wilt would be able to score 100 points in the NBA today. Meh. My point still stands. As I'm said, I'm not even arguing that any amount of skill transfers over from DotA to LoL, but that Chinese DotA and Korean Starcraft represent the two most stable and professional environments for improving at their respective games--the rate at which both made advancements in their respective games absolutely dwarfed their Western competition. And unlike Korean Starcraft, Chinese DotA is already playing a team game. Why would chinese dota switch to LoL when there is tons of money in Dota still. If anything they will switch to Dota 2 once the optimized lan client is out and the hero pool is complete. Or are you talking about ex chinese pro's? I still don't see why china would make a big switch. The same reason that second-tier BW pros switched to SC2--there's technically a lot of money in the scene, but iG, LGD, DK, WE, and Panda outclass their competition by so much that if the amount of money in competitive LoL catches up, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the second-tier teams switching over.
Ah that makes sense, I still think they would probably be more likely to have steady money in Dota 2 given a little more time mainly because they would be familiar with the game already and the scene is growing pretty fast.
LoL is different enough that I think being top would take a decent amount of work.
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On March 14 2012 12:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:48 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 14 2012 12:45 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
Those analogies aren't all that good because the LoL scene isn't anywhere near as developed as it's going to be. No one can be at the pinnacle of achievement in both games, but nothing that any LoL team is accomplishing right now is remotely close to the pinnacle of achievement. MJ and Lebron miss shots. They lose games. They arent at the pinacle of achievement of basketball either. They are just 2 of the best we have seen up to this point. Its a perfectly fair analogy to draw- especially when you consider that someone would laugh at you if you suggested that Wilt would be able to score 100 points in the NBA today. Meh. My point still stands. As I'm said, I'm not even arguing that any amount of skill transfers over from DotA to LoL, but that Chinese DotA and Korean Starcraft represent the two most stable and professional environments for improving at their respective games--the rate at which both made advancements in their respective games absolutely dwarfed their Western competition. And unlike Korean Starcraft, Chinese DotA is already playing a team game. Even with a "level playing field" in Starcraft 2, the rate at which Korean understanding of the game moved forward drastically outpaced the West. I expect the same to be true of LoL, it's just that Chinese LoL is starting with basically a 2 year disadvantage, so they have to catch up first.
I dunno, even with american DotA players... the only LoL pro that played DotA at a pro level is Chu8, and he not exactly head and shoulders above everyone.
I see what you are saying though. I think a lot of LoL has left to be discovered, things only though of from an individual perspective. Most pro LoL team comps not super strong right now, just all fives best players. That being said that starting to chang. For example M5 at Hannover was running Nocturne with AoE comps which I think is super smart. With nocturne ult you need to stay close together in order to not get picked off 1 by 1, but with against an AoE team grouping together tightly suicide. How do you fight that team comp? I have nothing, personally.
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Epik trying out ClakeyDeeeeeee(fighting game player and high elo jungler) in a scrim vs 4not(just went into champ select): http://www.own3d.tv/live/10955/Nhat_Nguyen
Dan going to be bringing his unique builds to the bottom lane as AD.
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On March 14 2012 12:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
LoL and Dota are VERY different games. The skill set might seem similar, but only as far as, say, football and basketball both use a ball and let you touch the ball. And sure, you see some crossover athletes, and being good at one is probably an indicator that you are at least decent at the other. But MJ was a horrible Baseball player. Lebron wouldnt be the best NFL player in the world.
I am fairly new to Dota, but the biggest difference I have seen so far is that LoL is FAR more punishing. Losing fights in Dota really doesnt mean that much because of how big the map is and because of buybacks. I mean, sure, giving an enemy team a gold advantage sucks cuz you will probably lose the next teamfight too, but you rarely see a "win teamfight take inhib or win game," even late game. Losing raxes are no where near as punishing a factor as they are in lol. And fights are MUCH longer and take up much more space.
And thats just one difference. It really is an entirely different game with an entirely different skill set- and not everything you practice in one game is going to help in the other- in fact a lot of stuff will actually hurt you if you try to carry over those skills, in either direction.
There is so much wrong with this. The games aren't exactly similar, but they're a lot more similar than you're portraying with the Basketball v Baseball v NFL argument. Those all require different athletic and coordination skillsets, while DotA and LoL at their core require the same fundamental skills and knowledge.
Also, there are plenty of DotA games where 1 teamfight decides the game, I'm not sure how you think that's rare? Perhaps you feel it's less rare in LoL because in the course of a game there are less teamfights, but when it gets lategame in either of them, a full wipe is a giant loss, and unless you were well ahead before said wipe/ace, you will require the other team to make mistakes to let you back into it.
You know better, I'm not sure why you try to expand points so far beyond where they should go. It's probably better to take the SC2 vs BW 'defense' in this argument from the LoL side: the games are extremely similar, but there will be a complete change in burden of knowledge. Even Flash won't dominate SC2 instantly because his mastery requires him to have a godlike knowledge of everything that can happen combined with his mechanical superiority, unfortunately the former takes time to reacquire.
In DotA->LoL transition, the players would not only have to learn all the champion/spell/item interactions, but learn new decision making patterns. Once they have that knowledge there is no reason to believe their already acquired skills won't then make them great players.
I don't believe Yango ever asserted they would just stomp everyone anyways, he only stated it would be interesting to see them switch over(which it would be).
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On March 14 2012 13:07 HPoirot wrote:Epik trying out ClakeyDeeeeeee(fighting game player and high elo jungler) in a scrim vs 4not(just went into champ select): http://www.own3d.tv/live/10955/Nhat_NguyenDan going to be bringing his unique builds to the bottom lane as AD.
Dan dinh is a moron and the worst jungler on any team by a long shot. I have no idea why he even tries his stupid troll shit. Also he reminds me of lapaka and lapaka is a piece of shit for trolling me in some games.
User was warned for this post
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Well, apparently you dont know much about sports, because being a good athlete, in many cases, makes you a good athlete. There are bunch of kids who play baseball and quarterback and have to choose between the two when graduating high school. Antonio Gates and Rob Gronkowski were both basketball players. Lebron was the top football prospect in the state of ohio when he was in high school.
You didnt say anything in the second paragraph that was different from my argument. In fact I even SAID that you still have a gold advantage you need to overcome. But you cannot argue the fact that at 40 minutes in a teamfight, if you get 5 kills in lol the game is VERY likely to be over. If you get 5 kills in dota? Less sure.
I know better than what? They are very different games. Sure, the basic framework is similar, but then again, checkers and chess are played on the the same board. Just because the field is the same does not mean that the same skills work.
Where did I say that they WOULDNT be able to be great players? Im not attacking Dota, or LoL, merely making a point that they are 2 different games that, while they share similarities, does not mean that being good at one makes you good at the other, no matter HOW good you are in the first one.
So basically it just looks like you are trying to argue for the sake of arguing with me.
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dan dinh best graves build rofl wtf is this.
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thats because 90% of all everythings is basically the same when you break it down. thought process, overall fitness, ability to work as a team. you can translate them from game to game and sport to sport. thats why people who are masters in sc or high rated on lol can play other games well, or why that 1 kid in school was good at every sport. in the 90th percentile or below, you can be good or bad in so many different areas that you can be good soley with those transferable skills.
now when you are talking about the super top pro level. world beating quality, this no longer holds true. when you are playing in the 99.99 percentile, everyone there is basically perfect in so many ways, the transferable skill set means jack shit. its the tiny details that make or break players at this level. thats why although high school kids are often good at 10 different sports, its almost never happened that the best at 1 sport/game has changed and gone on to be the best at the new one.
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On March 14 2012 13:48 De4ngus wrote:
dan dinh best graves build rofl wtf is this.
Come on, Wriggles Graves into LW/BT rush is legit yo. Obviously he needed more lifesteal, IE overrated anyways.
-.-
Imagine if instead of LW/BT he had IE/PD right now.
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so imagine if he had 2k extra gold?
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Couple things:
High level competition in multiple sports is very possible. Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders proved that. Also, Michael Jordan wasn't that bad of a baseball player, he had a learning curve for sure, but was figuring it out and I believe he would have made the show had the season not been cut short by the labor dispute... That's not really the point though, the point is that it is very possible.
I believe what makes this possible in traditional sports is the differences between the games of football and baseball and not the similarities. This is why video game crossovers have a disadvantage. If you carry DotA habits into LoL you have a higher hill to climb than someone with less of a MOBA background. Sure, you'll have better mechanics, but mechanics in this type of game, especially at the highest level, is not enough to carry you. Your game knowledge, strategy, instincts, and senses will all be fighting against what you learned in your old game and you are handcuffing yourself.
In my opinion.
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On March 14 2012 13:56 turdburgler wrote:
so imagine if he had 2k extra gold?
he had 1.5k gold, and a Zeal as well. He had enough gold for IE/PD.
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United States47024 Posts
FFS I don't even know why people are arguing about the transferrable skillset. What I'm talking about had absolutely nothing to do with that.
My point is that Western progamers suck at practicing. To anyone who's watched any LoL progamer, this should be painfully obvious. To my knowledge, no Western ESports organization has replicated the successes and practice model of Chinese DotA or Korean Starcraft. The better practice environment is the *reason* that the level of competition in these countries has eventually outstripped their Western counterparts. So it doesn't matter how much of one's fundamentals from DotA transfer over to LoL--so long as progamers in Korea and China are better at improving, they will eventually surpass Western teams. It might take 2 years, it might take 5, but unless a Western LoL team really steps up, I believe it will happen.
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I think when the GD for the new patch comes out, we all should take one weekend to read this whole GD from page 1 to the end. Should be an enlightening experience.
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not everyone is talking to you yango 
but i agree. so far the 'pro houses' in in the US have done more to highlight the problems rather than fix them. in both sc2 and lol the NA houses spend more time streaming random ladder and pissing around than they do doing real hardcore practice.
i think the main problem is the lack of coaching as a 'profession' in western esports. the only western coaches we have seen in sc2 so far are, no offence to them, terrible players who are being attached to teams to bring their profile and name to the brand. they are purely there as a face and often do no actual coaching.
in the korean sc scene atleast, coaches have a legit skill set of finding and developing talent. they also bring discipline to the houses which is sorely lacking right now in the west.
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Pro gamers in Korea see it as a job and have pride for their job. Pro gamers in the US see it as a perpetual slumber party and could really care less about actually buckling down and practicing.
At least this is what I have seen on most streams, less practicing and more dicking around with each other, they just don't have the same pride and mindset and don't take it seriously enough.
*edit* this is all observational theory though, I really don't know whether they have the same pride and mindset or not they just don't show it from my point of view.
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On March 14 2012 14:02 TheYango wrote:
FFS I don't even know why people are arguing about the transferrable skillset. What I'm talking about had absolutely nothing to do with that.
My point is that Western progamers suck at practicing. To anyone who's watched any LoL progamer, this should be painfully obvious. To my knowledge, no Western ESports organization has replicated the successes and practice model of Chinese DotA or Korean Starcraft. The better practice environment is the *reason* that the level of competition in these countries has eventually outstripped their Western counterparts. So it doesn't matter how much of one's fundamentals from DotA transfer over to LoL--so long as progamers in Korea and China are better at improving, they will eventually surpass Western teams. It might take 2 years, it might take 5, but unless a Western LoL team really steps up, I believe it will happen.
ya this x9999
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EPT
