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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5.
Item actives just give the opportunity to add more depth to the game which can make it more interesting. The downside of course is it makes the game more complex which you might argue is unnecessary. I think most people enjoy using items like randuins/shurelias, just like how in dota I like force staff and mekansm. Riot obviously leans towards making the game simple though, which is why we probably don't see many new items at all compared to dota where they often create a new item to counter specific strategies rather than nerfing the skills/heroes that are key to the strategies.
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Is renekton jungle viable ?
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On February 17 2012 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Is renekton jungle viable ?
Eh?
You pick Renekton to have a superior laning phase, his jungle's not that great and his ganks are kinda subpar. Doesn't help that he snowballs negatively. Pretty much every normal jungle pick is stronger. Pantheon in particular offers everything Renekton does except better.
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On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5.
I want an ap item, that gives cdr on an active. I am thinking of something like 20-30% for 5-10 seconds (60-120 seconds cooldown). Right now if you want cdr on a caster you are pretty limited to cdr boots and deathfire grasp, unless you are ryze and go for frozen heart of course. Sorc shoes are generally better for damage output, and merc treads overtake all the other choices in the teamfight stage, especially after building a void staff. Even if you build a cdr item, with blue buff and a blue pot you will overshoot the cdr cap, which is why people usually don't itemize for cdr. With an item like that I can pop it when I need the cdr for a fight, I'd love something like that.
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something else that came with the PBE patch: you can now choose all bots that are available in Coop vs AI in custom games
edit: new sounds too: after you end someones killing spree, the announcer shouts shutdown. thats new right?^^
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On February 17 2012 18:29 h3r1n6 wrote:
People run it on jungle Mundo.
They probably shouldn't, though. He sustains perfectly fine without those, MS or even AS Quints are vastly superior. Check the Mundo Thread for math.
I don't like the new champion's passive, not because I'm afraid it's going to be too strong, but because it's so boring. I really hope they come up with something innovative in the near future. Oh, or even better, I hope they stop releasing champions, I have so many I still want to become really good at. Also, it gets hard to keep up. There's 400+ abilities every League player has to have in mind all the time, it gets hard not to forget one or two. Also, they could start balancing this game so much better.
On February 17 2012 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Is renekton jungle viable ?
You can make it work. It's not super strong, but it's okay. A little in-built sustain, a potential double gap closer for ganks, a stun and the possibility to towerdive a little better with his ult. He's basically, save the gap closing, a worse Alistar. Wouldn't do it in ranked.
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Was Riot really that afraid of the 1v1/1v2 capabilities of Jugg's ult that they watered it down with the damage reduction part, trying to make it some kind of weak aoe instead?
Have to see how severe the damage reduction actually is, but that's my initial impression reading the skill.
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I just read somebody say basically "I build Vlad cdr boots, SV, FoN, triple warmog, people buying AP are so wrong, you get a midgame burst at the expense of survivability. I deal much more damage because I don't die, and my late game burst is extremely better thanks to the pool's scaling. I 1v5'd often with this".
...
My head hurts so much. x_x And he seemed so sure of him I'm not even sure he'd listen to opposite advices.
Edit:
On February 17 2012 21:33 red_ wrote:
Was Riot really that afraid of the 1v1/1v2 capabilities of Jugg's ult that they watered it down with the damage reduction part, trying to make it some kind of weak aoe instead?
Have to see how severe the damage reduction actually is, but that's my initial impression reading the skill.
Riot always does this when a spell can it several times (cf. Ahri and Nautilus). It's to avoid having a spell too biaised toward 1v1 (okayish then, but then weak on multitargets, or 0K in AoE but overpowered on single target).
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On February 17 2012 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Is renekton jungle viable ?
Nope. He's a really trash jungler.
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On February 17 2012 21:23 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5. I want an ap item, that gives cdr on an active. I am thinking of something like 20-30% for 5-10 seconds (60-120 seconds cooldown). Right now if you want cdr on a caster you are pretty limited to cdr boots and deathfire grasp, unless you are ryze and go for frozen heart of course. Sorc shoes are generally better for damage output, and merc treads overtake all the other choices in the teamfight stage, especially after building a void staff. Even if you build a cdr item, with blue buff and a blue pot you will overshoot the cdr cap, which is why people usually don't itemize for cdr. With an item like that I can pop it when I need the cdr for a fight, I'd love something like that.
3/4th of the community would scream that this item doesn´t work since CDR only counts at activation. People would look at their 2 minute ult thats cooling down, press the item and nothing happens.
Also I do think that you are supposed to feel a powergap when your temporary buffs run out/are unavailable.
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On February 17 2012 21:26 DoXa wrote:
something else that came with the PBE patch: you can now choose all bots that are available in Coop vs AI in custom games
http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=421896
"Players can now add many more of the Beginner bots to Custom Games" - it's already here
On February 17 2012 21:26 DoXa wrote:
edit: new sounds too: after you end someones killing spree, the announcer shouts shutdown. thats new right?^^
No, shutdown has been there since like forever. Dunno, maybe some patch "ninja-disabled" the announcer saying shutdown.
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On February 17 2012 21:43 Alaric wrote:
Riot always does this when a spell can it several times (cf. Ahri and Nautilus). It's to avoid having a spell too biaised toward 1v1 (okayish then, but then weak on multitargets, or 0K in AoE but overpowered on single target).
That's not entirely true, Ryzes E and Brands do not have diminishing dmg on further hits, although they do have other limiting factors (mainly the need for a second bounce target close by). I guess we can't say if the damage decrease is needed until knowing exactly how the skill 'strikes random champions'.
Edit: W -> E
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On February 17 2012 21:56 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:23 h3r1n6 wrote:On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5. I want an ap item, that gives cdr on an active. I am thinking of something like 20-30% for 5-10 seconds (60-120 seconds cooldown). Right now if you want cdr on a caster you are pretty limited to cdr boots and deathfire grasp, unless you are ryze and go for frozen heart of course. Sorc shoes are generally better for damage output, and merc treads overtake all the other choices in the teamfight stage, especially after building a void staff. Even if you build a cdr item, with blue buff and a blue pot you will overshoot the cdr cap, which is why people usually don't itemize for cdr. With an item like that I can pop it when I need the cdr for a fight, I'd love something like that. 3/4th of the community would scream that this item doesn´t work since CDR only counts at activation. People would look at their 2 minute ult thats cooling down, press the item and nothing happens. Also I do think that you are supposed to feel a powergap when your temporary buffs run out/are unavailable.
That's just speculation, people can learn how cdr actually works. In any case, I would like to see more actives and more options for itemization. That blue buff is so strong limits the options for casters, but there aren't many good cdr items anyway, that's why I want that item. I would like to see a nerf to blue buff too.
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On February 17 2012 22:05 Wrag wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:43 Alaric wrote:
Riot always does this when a spell can it several times (cf. Ahri and Nautilus). It's to avoid having a spell too biaised toward 1v1 (okayish then, but then weak on multitargets, or 0K in AoE but overpowered on single target). That's not entirely true, Ryzes W and Brands do not have diminishing dmg on further hits, although they do have other limiting factors (mainly the need for a second bounce target close by). I guess we can't say if the damage decrease is needed until knowing exactly how the skill 'strikes random champions'.
Ryze's E
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On February 17 2012 22:05 Wrag wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:43 Alaric wrote:
Riot always does this when a spell can it several times (cf. Ahri and Nautilus). It's to avoid having a spell too biaised toward 1v1 (okayish then, but then weak on multitargets, or 0K in AoE but overpowered on single target). That's not entirely true, Ryzes W and Brands do not have diminishing dmg on further hits, although they do have other limiting factors (mainly the need for a second bounce target close by). I guess we can't say if the damage decrease is needed until knowing exactly how the skill 'strikes random champions'.
Unless the wording is just purposefully confusing, it's Omnislash from Dota. You bounce on the targets face 3/6/9(not sure what Riot will make their numbers) times if they're the only target available, and they die. Finding a lvl 11+ Jugg with his ult up while alone is essentially death, you made a mistake and you get punished for it. If he uses it while you are in a pile of 12 creeps, you may actually only get hit once.
I'll wait to see numbers on it before flipping out further, but it seems awfully arbitrary to weaken it's 1v1 potential and turn it into a psuedo aoe, when there are plenty of champions who have VERY punishing 'I caught you wandering alone' kits(and on the flip side, champs who will rape your whole team if you clump as 5).
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On February 17 2012 22:18 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:05 Wrag wrote:On February 17 2012 21:43 Alaric wrote:
Riot always does this when a spell can it several times (cf. Ahri and Nautilus). It's to avoid having a spell too biaised toward 1v1 (okayish then, but then weak on multitargets, or 0K in AoE but overpowered on single target). That's not entirely true, Ryzes W and Brands do not have diminishing dmg on further hits, although they do have other limiting factors (mainly the need for a second bounce target close by). I guess we can't say if the damage decrease is needed until knowing exactly how the skill 'strikes random champions'. Unless the wording is just purposefully confusing, it's Omnislash from Dota. You bounce on the targets face 3/6/9(not sure what Riot will make their numbers) times if they're the only target available, and they die. Finding a lvl 11+ Jugg with his ult up while alone is essentially death, you made a mistake and you get punished for it. If he uses it while you are in a pile of 12 creeps, you may actually only get hit once. I'll wait to see numbers on it before flipping out further, but it seems awfully arbitrary to weaken it's 1v1 potential and turn it into a psuedo aoe, when there are plenty of champions who have VERY punishing 'I caught you wandering alone' kits(and on the flip side, champs who will rape your whole team if you clump as 5).
So i guess the real question is : Will it stack with Tiamat the same way Omnislash stacks with BF? Fun memories right there..
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On February 17 2012 22:13 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:56 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 21:23 h3r1n6 wrote:On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5. I want an ap item, that gives cdr on an active. I am thinking of something like 20-30% for 5-10 seconds (60-120 seconds cooldown). Right now if you want cdr on a caster you are pretty limited to cdr boots and deathfire grasp, unless you are ryze and go for frozen heart of course. Sorc shoes are generally better for damage output, and merc treads overtake all the other choices in the teamfight stage, especially after building a void staff. Even if you build a cdr item, with blue buff and a blue pot you will overshoot the cdr cap, which is why people usually don't itemize for cdr. With an item like that I can pop it when I need the cdr for a fight, I'd love something like that. 3/4th of the community would scream that this item doesn´t work since CDR only counts at activation. People would look at their 2 minute ult thats cooling down, press the item and nothing happens. Also I do think that you are supposed to feel a powergap when your temporary buffs run out/are unavailable. That's just speculation, people can learn how cdr actually works. In any case, I would like to see more actives and more options for itemization. That blue buff is so strong limits the options for casters, but there aren't many good cdr items anyway, that's why I want that item. I would like to see a nerf to blue buff too.
I still want my active boots.
Boots which can stun/silence/root.
Boots which have MS 2 but can be activated to 5+ for some time.
Boots which can make you invisible.
There are SO many possibilities with active items, the balance only boils down to numbers.
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On February 17 2012 22:35 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:13 h3r1n6 wrote:On February 17 2012 21:56 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 21:23 h3r1n6 wrote:On February 17 2012 20:18 Unentschieden wrote:On February 17 2012 20:03 TheYango wrote:On February 17 2012 19:45 Unentschieden wrote:
Regarding items: They are about powergrowth. Abilities on them are required if a champions abilities don´t scale (enough). Dota has plenty of them because a) there is no equivialent to AP and b) there is no design interest to keep things "simple".
Cool abilities are for champions and Summoner spells. I disagree. Item actives are about utility scaling. They're about allowing you to buy more utility and versatility with your gold, as opposed to more raw power. A champion is limited to the 4 abilities he has, and itemized stats can only increase the power of those abilities. AP does not in any way accomplish what item actives are supposed to accomplish. It does not make your champion capable of doing more different things. You can argue that CDR increases your utility, but in a practical sense, that's only accomplished in a narrow set of scenarios and with certain champions that already have a certain amount of baseline utility in their skills. This is most relevant to support champions who have no interest in buying power, whatsoever, as it has little to no relevance to their role. The goal of their itemization is to expand the repertoire of possible useful actions they can perform in a teamfight (which is why Shurelya's is such a powerful and high-demand item). Incidentally, the two item actives that are the closest to simply adding more raw power in DotA (Dagon and Refresher Orb) are probably two of the most worthless item actives in the game. The most high-value actives are those that have highly versatile situational utility. Yes, thats what I´m saying. The big difference is how you think about utility from items. Why is it important to give utility from items? Having more buttons to press isn´t inherently better, nor is changing champion capabilities over the course of a match. It both makes it harder to learn what a champ can do and how strong he is since utility has different implications based on specific champs and Teamcompositions. Item utility in LoL is mainly for retroactivly adjusting pregame mistakes like healreduce on Exec. if you failed to pick ignite but need it. Utility/support champions still want items in LoL. Maybe not enough but they already are set up to perform better in conjunction with CDR and items build from Gold/5. I want an ap item, that gives cdr on an active. I am thinking of something like 20-30% for 5-10 seconds (60-120 seconds cooldown). Right now if you want cdr on a caster you are pretty limited to cdr boots and deathfire grasp, unless you are ryze and go for frozen heart of course. Sorc shoes are generally better for damage output, and merc treads overtake all the other choices in the teamfight stage, especially after building a void staff. Even if you build a cdr item, with blue buff and a blue pot you will overshoot the cdr cap, which is why people usually don't itemize for cdr. With an item like that I can pop it when I need the cdr for a fight, I'd love something like that. 3/4th of the community would scream that this item doesn´t work since CDR only counts at activation. People would look at their 2 minute ult thats cooling down, press the item and nothing happens. Also I do think that you are supposed to feel a powergap when your temporary buffs run out/are unavailable. That's just speculation, people can learn how cdr actually works. In any case, I would like to see more actives and more options for itemization. That blue buff is so strong limits the options for casters, but there aren't many good cdr items anyway, that's why I want that item. I would like to see a nerf to blue buff too. I still want my active boots. Boots which can stun/silence/root. Boots which have MS 2 but can be activated to 5+ for some time. Boots which can make you invisible. There are SO many possibilities with active items, the balance only boils down to numbers.
Boots that can stun >.>
You're just making Ali jungle dream. Dem ganks.
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The stun/root/silence would have to be really short. Like 1 second
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EPT
