EPT[Patch 1.0.0.134: Nautilus] General Discussion - Page 51
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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:28 Mogwai wrote: 20% CDR is like 25% increase to your spell related DPS. Blue buff is nutty. I agree with your assessment that it, in many ways, drives early game action, but due to the nature of the CDR cap and general mana constraints, it's existence makes a large number of items totally irrelevant. I dunno, I don't have a good solution, I just find building casters on TT a lot more interesting than on SR since you have to weigh the power of Mana and CDR vs. raw AP/MPen without having Blue as a crutch. I think one of the things I would test is changing Blue to simply be "X flat MP5, total mana regen increased by Y%". I don't have any idea what the proper numbers would be, but I think playing with the mana regen mechanic of blue to not bring you into the hundreds unless you build for it would definitely be a good start. Blue is tenuously balanced right now, but I think it's an abomination of game design that a certain set of champions can just walk into their jungle and pick up a buff worth 7k gold in useful stats. | ||
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
DoubleEdit: Damn Smash so fast. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:30 Craton wrote: Mana burn is a horrific mechanic and should never be added. And so is infinite mana on champions that are "limited by mana", yet it exists. I'd still consider blue more powerful, since you can't manaburn all the "manaless" champs , but literally every character can use Blue if its given to them. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:35 LoCicero wrote: Someone thought I was Locodoco and kept telling me to go back to MiG. I decided a good response would be to farm my siphon strike to 500 by ~27 minutes and then 1v5 their team. good shit Loci, get em! | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305322 | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:30 Craton wrote: Mana burn is a horrific mechanic and should never be added. As a point and click nuke style mechanic I agree, that's why NA was nerfed so much in Dota; but there are other ways to add mana burn-esque mechanics that require coordination/setup by one team, or negligence/willing acceptance of it as a consequence by the other. We've gone over this in GD many times before though, the more manaless champs LoL adds the worse a mechanic it becomes because it becomes far more binary in it's use(it'd have to be really, really good to make up for being literally useless vs a decent portion of the champ pool, at which point it's just not fair vs mana champs). | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Regarding the new FotM tops (namely Shen and WW), which champs would be supposed to do well against them? Irelia, Pantheon and Renekton were already inferior to WW pre-buff from what I've read, and I wouldn't try Olaf against a sustainer like WW or Shen's feint. Jax wouldn't probably be able to withstand all that harass. Blitzcrank is out of question even tho I'd like to dust him off as solotop. Galio can probably do 0K after rough first levels, and turn the lane into a farmfest, but he scales a lot worse than them ; same with Maokai. I see Viktor abusing his range against Shen and outpushing WW, but if he gets caught they'll wreck him in damage output during trades. Swain, perhaps? WW shouldn't be able to catch him, and if he lives till 6 his sustain should stave off Shen. I don't think I have many other tops... and I don't look very well equipped to deal with those two. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:46 red_ wrote: As a point and click nuke style mechanic I agree, that's why NA was nerfed so much in Dota; but there are other ways to add mana burn-esque mechanics that require coordination/setup by one team, or negligence/willing acceptance of it as a consequence by the other. We've gone over this in GD many times before though, the more manaless champs LoL adds the worse a mechanic it becomes because it becomes far more binary in it's use(it'd have to be really, really good to make up for being literally useless vs a decent portion of the champ pool, at which point it's just not fair vs mana champs). Biggest reason mana burn CANT work in lol is that it doesnt actually hurt casters but fucks over everyone else. | ||
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GranDim
Canada1214 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:26 Requizen wrote: I think the issue, in some regards, is the disparity between Blue and Red. Red is a nice boost, makes chasing and killing easier, and clearing faster. If you get it, it's a nice help, but it doesn't dictate your strength. No one says "Oh this champ is only ok, BUT WITH RED HE'S ABSURD". That argument can be made, on the other hand, for Blue. Blue is just so overwhelmingly useful that, like people say, it's almost as important as Dragon or towers. IMO, either Red needs to be brought up or Blue toned down. What if Red gave a MS boost as well as it's current effect, or something like the Dominion buff (small shield and AoE bounce)? This seems unrelated to the mp5 discussion, I know, but think about it, if you want objectives, Red is almost negligible except for like, level 2 gank timings or as a big gold boost for junglers. --- Actually, I had a different idea. What if Red was the antithesis of Blue? The buff, along with just doing damage and slowing, also burned mana like old Wit's used to? Red becomes super necessary for control, Blue becomes less dominant? Are people so quick to forget the glory days of AD carries with old red? Any buff to red would have to be very carefully planned. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:49 Alaric wrote: Shamelessly quoting myself from page 48: Regarding the new FotM tops (namely Shen and WW), which champs would be supposed to do well against them? Irelia, Pantheon and Renekton were already inferior to WW pre-buff from what I've read, and I wouldn't try Olaf against a sustainer like WW or Shen's feint. Jax wouldn't probably be able to withstand all that harass. Blitzcrank is out of question even tho I'd like to dust him off as solotop. Galio can probably do 0K after rough first levels, and turn the lane into a farmfest, but he scales a lot worse than them ; same with Maokai. I see Viktor abusing his range against Shen and outpushing WW, but if he gets caught they'll wreck him in damage output during trades. Swain, perhaps? WW shouldn't be able to catch him, and if he lives till 6 his sustain should stave off Shen. I don't think I have many other tops... and I don't look very well equipped to deal with those two. Teemo destroys WW hard. Mundo beats both of them from what I've seen (lol, seriously). Dunno if it's just bad shens or what but I've been crushing shens with Wukong, seems like he can just trade favorably. Ryze beats the bag out of WW pre-6 and assuming he can get far enough ahead from that, WW should be screwed post catalyst too. Swain should crush WW I think. No one wants to hear it, but Xin's low levels are stronger than both WW and Shen, but obviously runs into scaling issues. Cait, Graves, Trist, MF and Corki should probably demolish WW too, but no one will let you do that stuff. Shyvanna beats WW at least early from what I've seen. EDIT: also wtf at Galio getting outscaled by them? Galio's ult is one of the single largest beatings in this entire game, no idea how you're getting that he gets outscaled. Granted, he won't cleanup a teamfight the way they will lategame, but assuming you hit a good ult, you don't have to. Their late game scalings are different, but Galio's a more potent teamfighter. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:54 GranDim wrote: Are people so quick to forget the glory days of AD carries with old red? Any buff to red would have to be very carefully planned. A lot more has changed since then besides just a nerf to red buff. It could be a fairly large buff and it wouldn't magically bring back AD mids who get handed first red after they hit w/e level then go control the whole game. Edit: If anything, a red buff buff would be a jungler buff, with their ganks becoming more potent. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:10 Mogwai wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296762 not even TL has enough of a Karma boner to keep that thread bumped  .Can't believe I didn't notice that. I guess I know what champion I'm buying next. . .well after talon maybe. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:58 red_ wrote: A lot more has changed since then besides just a nerf to red buff. It could be a fairly large buff and it wouldn't magically bring back AD mids who get handed first red after they hit w/e level then go control the whole game. I think a speed buff to red could be fun. Nothing huge, just a little bit. Be an interesting thing to try. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 17 2012 07:04 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Wasn't red "op" back when hyper carries were ruling the format? I don't remember exactly when they nerfed red to half slow on ranged and when they nerfed the hyper carries. glory days of kog were the glory days of red buff. since then it hasn't been as big a priority. but back when it was full slow for ranged, IE + PD Kog was basically GG unless you had multiple huge range initiates for Kog (like Malphite + Nocturne). | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:59 Two_DoWn wrote: I think a speed buff to red could be fun. Nothing huge, just a little bit. Be an interesting thing to try. I think some kind of scaling Attack Speed (20 - 40% based on level?) might be interesting, to give it a secondary component like blue's completely unnecessary 20% CDR. More than that though, Blue needs to really be looked at, because its peak benefit is so high for some champions. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:28 Mogwai wrote: 20% CDR is like 25% increase to your spell related DPS. Blue buff is nutty. I agree with your assessment that it, in many ways, drives early game action, but due to the nature of the CDR cap and general mana constraints, it's existence makes a large number of items totally irrelevant. I dunno, I don't have a good solution, I just find building casters on TT a lot more interesting than on SR since you have to weigh the power of Mana and CDR vs. raw AP/MPen without having Blue as a crutch. Personally I'm not too concerned with the power of blue buff. I can deal with it being strong. I do think it's a design issue, however, that blue bufff essentially knocks out the items under two tabs of the caster item list (CDR and mana regen) from really being useful. That's definitely a problem. Red achieves its value without disrupting itemization by providing benefits that are for the most part un-itemizable. Riot just happened to choose 2 benefits for blue buff that ARE itemizable, and thus made it totally impractical to itemize for those stats. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 17 2012 07:15 TheYango wrote: Personally I'm not too concerned with the power of blue buff. I can deal with it being strong. I do think it's a design issue, however, that blue bufff essentially knocks out the items under two tabs of the caster item list (CDR and mana regen) from really being useful. That's definitely a problem. Red achieves its value without disrupting itemization by providing benefits that are for the most part un-itemizable. Riot just happened to choose 2 benefits for blue buff that ARE itemizable, and thus made it totally impractical to itemize for those stats. yea, I mean w/e, that's really my only issue with blue (the itemization implications). but w/e, I think the game is ok right now. still think they made masteries and the jungle worse, but I'm surviving. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On February 17 2012 07:15 TheYango wrote: Personally I'm not too concerned with the power of blue buff. I can deal with it being strong. I do think it's a design issue, however, that blue bufff essentially knocks out the items under two tabs of the caster item list (CDR and mana regen) from really being useful. That's definitely a problem. Red achieves its value without disrupting itemization by providing benefits that are for the most part un-itemizable. Riot just happened to choose 2 benefits for blue buff that ARE itemizable, and thus made it totally impractical to itemize for those stats. It's not just items (which I do think is a bigger deal on the design spectrum) but what about Runes? I hardly see AP players get Mana Regen Seals anymore because they get Blue starting at level 5 now. I see more AP/Level or Flat Armor on mid lately. | ||
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