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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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On February 17 2012 04:25 Doctorbeat wrote:
Btw, is there ever a situation in which you guys buy Soul Shroud or Nashor's Tooth?
Because those are two items that I never really buy, on any champion.
Skarner. 5x Stingers + Boots of mobility. Feel my sting >:3
Nashor's is pretty meh, but it can be okay on some ad off casters (like maybe Renekton, or even Yi) but just isn't really worth the cost most of the time when you can get brutalizer instead for some CDR and damage boost.
Soul Shroud is nice on a fella like aura-bot Taric, or when you have a lot of CDR dependent champs on your team, but often reverie just outdoes it in overall usefulness.
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On February 17 2012 03:53 BlackMagister wrote:
Warmogs on Cassio works because she has high base damage even without building AP which was one of the reasons her base damage was nerfed this patch.
TSM scrimming SK again. They're having trouble because TSM forgot to mention what they're placeholder picks were so SK thought TSM was using Karma when Karma = Kog.
And the next game he went... DOUBLE WARMOGS.
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I dont even get the point of getting double warmogs over warmogs + zhonya/ abyssal, so much HP without armor and mr is just wasted ...
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On February 17 2012 04:51 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:25 Doctorbeat wrote:
Btw, is there ever a situation in which you guys buy Soul Shroud or Nashor's Tooth?
Because those are two items that I never really buy, on any champion. Skarner. 5x Stingers + Boots of mobility. Feel my sting >:3 Nashor's is pretty meh, but it can be okay on some ad off casters (like maybe Renekton, or even Yi) but just isn't really worth the cost most of the time when you can get brutalizer instead for some CDR and damage boost. Soul Shroud is nice on a fella like aura-bot Taric, or when you have a lot of CDR dependent champs on your team, but often reverie just outdoes it in overall usefulness.
Why in the world would you get Nashors on Renketon, he has no mana and his abilities scale of AD. Much better off getting brutalizer for cdr and wits end for atk speed.
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Giants belt+wota better than warmogs on cass imo. Don't need that much hp when you have lots of vamp.
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United States37500 Posts
Nashor's Tooth is just an ill-thought up item. CDR, Mana regen, AS? What kind of Role would want that item? AP "Bruiser" perhaps? Kayle is the only champ I can think of that it would work on. Maybe Riot can design a champ that can take advantage of NT's stats.
It's incredibly awful on Renekton. That entire Fiendish Codex part of the item is utterly wasted on Croc.
Edit: and you can argue the benefits of a Warmog's over Rylai's on a champ like Cass. Double Mogs I think is stretching it a bit...
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Irellia? AS/CDR/Mana Regen all seems potentially quite nice on her. Though in practice it's probably not that great.
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On February 17 2012 05:08 NeoIllusions wrote:
Nashor's Tooth is just an ill-thought up item. CDR, Mana regen, AS? What kind of Role would want that item? AP "Bruiser" perhaps? Kayle is the only champ I can think of that it would work on. Maybe Riot can design a champ that can take advantage of NT's stats.
It's incredibly awful on Renekton. That entire Fiendish Codex part of the item is utterly wasted on Croc.
Edit: and you can argue the benefits of a Warmog's over Rylai's on a champ like Cass. Double Mogs I think is stretching it a bit...
I thought nashor's provided AP. Yeah it does. I don't like the item, but then again I don't like a lot of items. Seems like it gives a lot of the stats a hybrid champ would want.
As for soul shroud, it has really nice stats and can be coordinated into an arranged team. CDR strong. Aura CDR better.
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Half the problem with most CDR items is that mp5 itemization sucks. The most mp5 you can get from any one item is 25, and that's from AA. Everything else of note sits in the 10-15 mp5 range. By comparison, blue gives you 25mp5 + 1% per second, so even at 500 mana you get 50 mp5 total. By 18 mages will have anywhere between 1-2k mana, meaning 75-125 mp5 is just one buff away.
If mp5 was cheaper all of those CDR items that build off of Ancient Codex would look a lot more appetizing. By cheaper I mean "more mp5, same price".
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United States37500 Posts
On February 17 2012 05:17 dooraven wrote:
Irellia? AS/CDR/Mana Regen all seems potentially quite nice on her. Though in practice it's probably not that great.
Standalone, Nashor would seem ok on Irelia. But put it next to a Wit's End and it's not even a fair choice. (like Smash says, Wit's End is so stupidly good, a lot of the other AS items are so far behind.)
On February 17 2012 05:18 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:08 NeoIllusions wrote:
Nashor's Tooth is just an ill-thought up item. CDR, Mana regen, AS? What kind of Role would want that item? AP "Bruiser" perhaps? Kayle is the only champ I can think of that it would work on. Maybe Riot can design a champ that can take advantage of NT's stats.
It's incredibly awful on Renekton. That entire Fiendish Codex part of the item is utterly wasted on Croc.
Edit: and you can argue the benefits of a Warmog's over Rylai's on a champ like Cass. Double Mogs I think is stretching it a bit... I thought nashor's provided AP. Yeah it does. I don't like the item, but then again I don't like a lot of items. Seems like it gives a lot of the stats a hybrid champ would want. As for soul shroud, it has really nice stats and can be coordinated into an arranged team. CDR strong. Aura CDR better.
It provides AP too, I forgot that off the list.
SS suffers from kinda the same problem as NT, from above. Looks decent on paper for a support. HP, CDR, Mana Regen. But then compare it to a Shurelya's...
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On February 17 2012 04:07 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:05 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 17 2012 03:53 BlackMagister wrote:
Warmogs on Cassio works because she has high base damage even without building AP which was one of the reasons her base damage was nerfed this patch.
I understand why it works, but I see more merit in getting a Rylai > Warmogs. You get tanky, more damage from AP (because she does have good ratios), and great kiting ability. I haven't played her since her nerf, but they took 10% off her Q scaling, and 10 base damage off her E. She's still perfectly fine, and I'll always build Rylai over Warmogs, but maybe is just me. The Rylai's is nice, but the total damage added pales compared to the extra ability to stay alive Warmog's gives on her, especially when you factor in that nobody can run from her to begin with thanks to her Q.
The slow on Rylai's grants a more open-ended survivability than the straight health on Warmogs gives. Granted, it is more skill based, but in the same right that people can't run from a Rylai's Cass, she has incredible zone control because of it. She can kite and poke all day barring a misstep or outside factor. It is difficult to initiate on a Cass with Rylai's, and if your team does, her ult absolutely decimates a forward advance.
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hey, skarner scales with nashors...! Too bad you'll have like 1400 hp and no resists after finishing your big item...
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On February 17 2012 05:25 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:17 dooraven wrote:
Irellia? AS/CDR/Mana Regen all seems potentially quite nice on her. Though in practice it's probably not that great. Standalone, Nashor would seem ok on Irelia. But put it next to a Wit's End and it's not even a fair choice. (like Smash says, Wit's End is so stupidly good, a lot of the other AS items are so far behind.)
I honestly think the "problem" with a lot of the AS items like Bloodrazor is just that Wit's End is too cost effective for anything else to compete.
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Mana regen is one of those odd things in this game that doesnt quite make a lot of sense from an itemization/champ growth standpoint. At low mana amounts you want to buy more flat mana, but at high mana amounts you want MP5. Only the only characters that ACTUALLY want a lot of Mana AND mp5 are casters. And they get good mana growth even if they dont get ROA, so just getting lots of mp5 through blue is fine for them.
Tanky dps on the other hand just want 1 of those things, so typically the best way to deal with that is just get more mana, which is cheap, easily itemized for them, and is fine because of their typically low mana costs.
So really I just sort of consider mp5 a throwaway stat.
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Wow, TSM with a 15 minute baron.
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AP Kog/Maw wants/needs lots of mana, but the CDR/AS is kind of wasted to some degree since the reason you're building mp5/AP is mainly for R spam with a little bit of BAB thrown in. Teemo is the only other character who i could imagine making use of Nashor's, but the mana regen is a huge waste on him and for how expensive the item is you can't commit to either AP Teemo or AS/onhit with it.
As far as Wit's comparing to other AS items, it's the survivability that really pulls it forward to make it useable on so many characters. Malady offers similar (if not more) damage depending on who you build it on and what it synergizs with, but it's another one of those awkward AP/AS items that only works on a handful of characters, and if you build it, you're commiting to being squishy essentially, whereas with Wit's you cna get a decent amount o damage and still grab some defense in the process.
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On February 17 2012 05:32 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:25 NeoIllusions wrote:On February 17 2012 05:17 dooraven wrote:
Irellia? AS/CDR/Mana Regen all seems potentially quite nice on her. Though in practice it's probably not that great. Standalone, Nashor would seem ok on Irelia. But put it next to a Wit's End and it's not even a fair choice. (like Smash says, Wit's End is so stupidly good, a lot of the other AS items are so far behind.) I honestly think the "problem" with a lot of the AS items like Bloodrazor is just that Wit's End is too cost effective for anything else to compete.
I don't think so. Wits is good for bruisers because it gives tankiness and is fairly cheap, not so much because it's cost effective; that's just a nice bonus. There are lots of cost effective items out there that aren't great just because the stats don't fit well on champs.
Right now, people who just want damage with their aspd just go and get a PD or maybe a BC. Nashor's is basically a really expensive mix of attack speed, CDR, AP, and mp5 which is a set of stats that is extremely niche. How many AP champions want attack speed? How many of those want CDR? The mp5 is just a bad stat to tack on.
Zeke's exists as a largely superior alternative of CDR and aspd and also contains lifesteal and HP, which gives a bit of beefiness that a bruiser would like.
All that said, I think Stinger is actually a pretty good item. They could either kill Nashor's and redo it like they did to Starks or they could make Stinger build into something else.
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the only champion that would scale with nashors i can come up with is warwick. like GA + NT instead of wits end + FH. pretty sure the ap is wasted though.
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The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
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EPT
