On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
I buy Morello's on Karma on Twisted Treeline. 15 AP, 5% CDR, 2 MP/5 more for 260 gold less is not a terrible deal. I agree that it's generally worse, but it's not strictly worse.
On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
I buy Morello's on Karma on Twisted Treeline. 15 AP, 5% CDR, 2 MP/5 more for 260 gold less is not a terrible deal. I agree that it's generally worse, but it's not strictly worse.
Morello's is also nice on Dominion.
Basically the lack of blue buff makes CDR and mp5 actually somewhat sensible stats.
On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
If Morello's had maybe four or five times as much mana regen then it would be okay. Hmm. Maybe the real strength of blue buff is that there are no items that can even compare, in terms of mana regen. Most only have around 10 mp5, and the most is 25 - which doesn't give you anywhere near the sustain of blue buff. Like if Morello's gave around 50 mp5 then I think it would become a viable choice - but even with four times as much mana regen I don't think it would be broken, since you have to delay building other stuff to get it. Right now if you want to build mana regen (ignoring chalice) you put off getting damage for a long time - and you don't even get a noticeable amount.
Noob Idea Would adding a weird passive like tiny %AP on auto attacks help make Nashor's more viable/useful? (similar to Ori's passive or the damage on Wit's End)
On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
I buy Morello's on Karma on Twisted Treeline. 15 AP, 5% CDR, 2 MP/5 more for 260 gold less is not a terrible deal. I agree that it's generally worse, but it's not strictly worse.
Smash can you write a karma guide when you have the time so TL can start owning people with her? :3
On February 17 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: The fact that Skarnar doesn't even buy Nashor's is a testament to how bad it is. He literally has the perfect scaling for this item, yet you're still basically always better off with Wit's + Frozen Heart to handle your needs. DFG and Morello's cover the niches off of Fiendish Codex just fine, just give stinger 1 or 2 new build paths, such as stinger + brutalizer = some cool item for Xin Zhao, or make stinger build into zeke's or something.
Dun get me started on morellos. Putting an item in a game that is worse than one that already exists for the sole standpoint of it not having an active for people to forget is a TERRIBLE idea.
I buy Morello's on Karma on Twisted Treeline. 15 AP, 5% CDR, 2 MP/5 more for 260 gold less is not a terrible deal. I agree that it's generally worse, but it's not strictly worse.
Smash can you write a karma guide when you have the time so TL can start owning people with her? :3
On February 17 2012 06:07 Sven Stryker wrote: Noob Idea Would adding a weird passive like tiny %AP on auto attacks help make Nashor's more viable/useful? (similar to Ori's passive or the damage on Wit's End)
I don't see why. In that case it would just make the item real strong/borderline OP on the few characters that can use it, and just as useless for those who can't.
It's the weird mix of stats for how expensive it is that makes Nashor's suck---they need to just gut it and replace it with something.
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
I think Blue Buff (and regen in general) really need some tweaks, because right now you can make the argument that controlling the enemy's blue is as important as controlling Dragon, and that's really kind of stupid. Champions who need that kind of mana really should have to invest in it more heavily than they do right now.
On February 17 2012 05:25 NeoIllusions wrote: It provides AP too, I forgot that off the list. SS suffers from kinda the same problem as NT, from above. Looks decent on paper for a support. HP, CDR, Mana Regen. But then compare it to a Shurelya's...
Well, the big issue with Soul Shroud is that it's the 4th best item that builds out of Kindlegem for a support, and the 3rd best aura item - and the other 2 aura items both give 15%, so unless you're intentionally gimping yourself on CDR in lane to make your 4th/5th item better as a support, it's just a gigantic inefficient blob of health.
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
So here is a question as a follow-up...what are some interesting and/or unique ways you could change blue buff? The existence of objectives that are worth being stolen/fought over makes the game dynamic.
What if blue buff gave +50% increased gold from minions kills? Wouldn't that be interesting? It would allow the jungler to farm like a madman, OR they could hand it off to one of the lane carries..and it doesn't necessarily have to be the AP. Plus, stealing it would be a fairly large bonus to whomever gets it.
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
I think Blue Buff (and regen in general) really need some tweaks, because right now you can make the argument that controlling the enemy's blue is as important as controlling Dragon, and that's really kind of stupid. Champions who need that kind of mana really should have to invest in it more heavily than they do right now.
Yeah speaking of ways to uproot the meta....has that ever been suggested to Morello? The lack of infinite lane harass/ability for all APs to build burely for AP would surely change what happens midlane and jungler-wise, which may even carry over to bot lane eventually...
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
I think Blue Buff (and regen in general) really need some tweaks, because right now you can make the argument that controlling the enemy's blue is as important as controlling Dragon, and that's really kind of stupid. Champions who need that kind of mana really should have to invest in it more heavily than they do right now.
I think it adds more to the game than it takes away. It promotes playing aggressively, and securing a buff on your ap carry, when used properly, means having that carry move around the map and be active.
Both things are good for the game, both in terms of playing it and watching it. It doesnt make the mid stronger in the sense of being able to KILL things, only in terms of being more active.
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
I think Blue Buff (and regen in general) really need some tweaks, because right now you can make the argument that controlling the enemy's blue is as important as controlling Dragon, and that's really kind of stupid. Champions who need that kind of mana really should have to invest in it more heavily than they do right now.
I think it adds more to the game than it takes away. It promotes playing aggressively, and securing a buff on your ap carry, when used properly, means having that carry move around the map and be active.
Both things are good for the game, both in terms of playing it and watching it. It doesnt make the mid stronger in the sense of being able to KILL things, only in terms of being more active.
I like that it's an important objective, but Red is also an important objective, and there's no way to argue that controlling Red is more important than controlling Dragon. Blue just does so much for your champion - it's 20% CDR and 100+ Mp5 at endgame, and that's an absolutely absurd amount that no amount of items can even come close to replacing.
Blue needs to be strong, but it doesn't need to be 100 mp5 strong. 5500 gold worth of mana regeneration is big fuckin' money compared to the 50 true damage / tick and 24/15% slow red provides.
On February 17 2012 06:05 Mogwai wrote: Yea, basically blue buff is dumb and ruins the game.
I think Blue Buff (and regen in general) really need some tweaks, because right now you can make the argument that controlling the enemy's blue is as important as controlling Dragon, and that's really kind of stupid. Champions who need that kind of mana really should have to invest in it more heavily than they do right now.
I think it adds more to the game than it takes away. It promotes playing aggressively, and securing a buff on your ap carry, when used properly, means having that carry move around the map and be active.
Both things are good for the game, both in terms of playing it and watching it. It doesnt make the mid stronger in the sense of being able to KILL things, only in terms of being more active.
I like that it's an important objective, but Red is also an important objective, and there's no way to argue that controlling Red is more important than controlling Dragon. Blue just does so much for your champion - it's 20% CDR and 100+ Mp5 at endgame, and that's an absolutely absurd amount that no amount of items can even come close to replacing.
Blue needs to be strong, but it doesn't need to be 100 fucking mp5 strong. 5500 gold worth of mana regeneration is big fuckin' money compared to the 2k-ish benefit Red provides.
The problem with red is the fact that lategame it is very lacklustre, and the minute extra true damage/slow you get is nowhere near as useful as it is early game for jungler ganks/transfer to AD carry and such. If it scaled as hard as blue buff did or was useful all game, maybe controlling red would be as important which would probably be a good thing.
On February 17 2012 06:22 Two_DoWn wrote: But it isnt 5k worth of stats for something that actually makes you directly stronger, only that adds to the options you have. I think that is fine.
There's plenty of champions for whom that 5k (not even including the 1200~ worth of CDR) is entirely useful - Karthus, Cassiopeia, Anivia, Ziggs, Karma, Orianna, Zilean, Sona, Kog'maw, Kassadin, Swain and Ryze can all bleed every last drop of mana out of Blue without an issue, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of champions who are "merely" greatly improved by having it.
The difference between Blue and No Blue, for a champion that can OoM with blue, is larger than a Deathcap. That's stupid. Doubly so because Blue also gives CDR in an amount comparable to Red's total benefit at low levels.
I think the issue, in some regards, is the disparity between Blue and Red. Red is a nice boost, makes chasing and killing easier, and clearing faster. If you get it, it's a nice help, but it doesn't dictate your strength. No one says "Oh this champ is only ok, BUT WITH RED HE'S ABSURD". That argument can be made, on the other hand, for Blue. Blue is just so overwhelmingly useful that, like people say, it's almost as important as Dragon or towers.
IMO, either Red needs to be brought up or Blue toned down. What if Red gave a MS boost as well as it's current effect, or something like the Dominion buff (small shield and AoE bounce)?
This seems unrelated to the mp5 discussion, I know, but think about it, if you want objectives, Red is almost negligible except for like, level 2 gank timings or as a big gold boost for junglers.
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Actually, I had a different idea. What if Red was the antithesis of Blue? The buff, along with just doing damage and slowing, also burned mana like old Wit's used to? Red becomes super necessary for control, Blue becomes less dominant?
On February 17 2012 06:22 Two_DoWn wrote: But it isnt 5k worth of stats for something that actually makes you directly stronger, only that adds to the options you have. I think that is fine.
20% CDR is like 25% increase to your spell related DPS. Blue buff is nutty.
I agree with your assessment that it, in many ways, drives early game action, but due to the nature of the CDR cap and general mana constraints, it's existence makes a large number of items totally irrelevant. I dunno, I don't have a good solution, I just find building casters on TT a lot more interesting than on SR since you have to weigh the power of Mana and CDR vs. raw AP/MPen without having Blue as a crutch.
EPT
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